Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board/W2G

Wikimedians to the Games

Wikimedians to the Games (W2G) is a an opportunity for two Australian Wikimedians to go to London and cover the 2012 Summer Paralympics held in London for Wikinews, Commons and Wikipedia. W2G is played and won by skill of editing. The purpose W2G is to encourage content improvement related to the history of the Paralympic Movement in Australia and make editing on Wikipedia fun.

Wikimedians to the Games begins on 10 January 2012 and is structured as a two round tournament. The plan for the tournament is as follows:

10 January 2012 to 20 April 2012: We start with one group of all participants, with the top 4 from that group progressing to the second round. These four will be given press passes to cover the 2012 Paralympic Games. Points reset to zero at the round.
22 April 2012 to 30 June 2012: 4 participants left – the top two will earn paid transportation and accommodation to cover the Paralympic Games in person.

For the full rules clarifying for what points can be awarded and other rules, see outreach:HOPAU/W2G/Rules. However, the spirit of the rules are more important than the letter, and the judges reserve the right to deny points to anyone deemed to be abusing the system, as well as remove persistently problematic users from the competition. The judges for W2G include Laura Hale and John Vandenberg‎. They will be assisted by other judges including Sp33dyphil. They can be reached by their talk pages, the W2G talk page, by email or in the Wikimedia Australia IRC channel, #wikimedia-au ^connect. Also, check this page and its sub pages to see if your question was already answered.

If you believe one of the contestants is abusing the spirit of the rules, intentionally submitting subpar articles with the aim of getting more W2G points, or anything similar, please contact one of the judges by email. They will look into the matter and take action if necessary.

You can sign up at any time between 10 January and 20 April 2012 by following the directions on outreach:HOPAU/W2G/Participants. --LauraHale (talk) 04:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please answer my question following your post to WT:WA diff on this or the post on Wikimedia Outreach[1] both of which were left two days ago. In short why are featured pictures so under valued that a person would need to take 200 FP to get the equalivelant point of one FA and then have to earn another 150 points thru other means to get that value Gnan garra 13:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't see it. My bad. The primary purpose of this program is to improve content. At the same time, the relative amount of time and work in creating, and nominating a Featured Picture is much less. Hence the point difference. For photographers, there are ways to take pictures and get more points: They can re-use those pictures in DYK nominations and in Wikinews articles. --LauraHale (talk) 19:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it needs to be revised in light of what Gnangarra has raised - namely, that it's pretty much impossible for a photographer to achieve the required "points". No points system is immune from change if it's shown to be silly. (And I say that as a writer of one featured article which took almost two months to get right - one might actually ask if the system for *those* is a little heavy and would encourage poor quality FA nominations.) Also, why such a limited language list? I could probably interest an editor in writing in Serbian, but that isn't on the list, and there doesn't seem to be anywhere near the level of incentive to do it anyway. Considering Italian, Chinese, Vietnamese, Greek and the Balkan languages are the main non-English first languages in Australia, it seems blatantly odd to give French and German higher priority. Orderinchaos 01:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

French and German were given a priority because their Featured Article process is generally considered rigorous, and less of a popularity contest. Photographers have the opportunity to participate, but again, the emphasis is on improving content. We'd love them to be involved and we offered points to encourage them to participate. We can assist them in getting press passes to attend events. We're going to host at least one workshop at NSIC specifically dealing with Commons and taking pictures. (Almost certainly, people from Western Australia will have an opportunity to attend: They will likely need to meet a minimum threshold of points to get a participation grant.) --LauraHale (talk) 02:18, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can see what it is trying to achieve, but it seems like bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake to me, and possibly (through the best of intentions) not choosing the right behaviours to reward. Like I said, I probably could get a couple of people interested from WA, but they're unlikely to participate if there's no likelihood of them ever getting there because of seemingly discriminatory rules. (My Serbian friend has pointed out the rather obvious, although unintentional, class bias - it would be almost impossible for a less educated or lower class person to get any headway.) Orderinchaos 02:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Laura how many FPs have you created, how long did take, how far did you travel, how much expense did you incur. The point is if you end up sending a photographer to the games you'll end up with 2,000 plus free photographs, send a writeer you'll get 10-12 wikinews articles and couple of en articles. Getting the photographs are a once off opportunity they cant be taken after the event but the article can. Simply WMAU is suppose to be about suporting all Wikimedia contributors this clearly says that taking photographs is a worthless pursuit as far as WMAU is concerned. Gnan garra 03:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree. We're permanently short of high quality photos of contemporary events of all kinds (as well as photos of living people from outside the US), so someone with track record of creating high quality photos would be great choice to send along. It wouldn't be any more difficult to add text to articles on the games from Australia than from London, but photos obviously require the person to be on the ground. Nick-D (talk) 08:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all. If I might step in here for a moment, I think that some of this criticism directed at Laura is misdirected. WMAU is partnering with the Australian Paralympic Committee to offer this opportunity to editors, and they are primarily interested in developing written material for a book documenting the history of the Paralympic Movement in Australia (see wikiversity:The_History_of_the_Paralympic_Movement_in_Australia for more information). The main reason that pictures and images, or articles on non-English projects are even being considered at all is because Laura has pushed for that with APC and some tradeoffs have been made. Obviously, this competition will not suit every Wikimedian skillset out there (that includes my own; I've never written a featured article in my life), which is unfortunate but unavoidable in this case. There is no implication being made that an FP is 50 times easier to create than an FA; anyone who's tried to do it without having the right equipment and experience knows how difficult it is :-/. We hope to also run some competitions targeted at photographers in 2012, to provide opportunities for editors who are good with a camera to have a go.

With that said, we'll see if we can include Greek and Serbian on the list. The prime concern obviously is whether the FA (or equivalent) processes on those projects are rigourous and impartial enough for us to base scoring points off of. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 09:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC).[reply]

WMAU is about supporting efforts of contributors in Australia not about writing books for sporting organisations, thats siad working with groups to gain content is always a good idea just that WMAU should be prioritising benefits to and including the community. On aside issue given the amount of investment WMAU is doing in developing Indonesian languages surely Indonesian would aslo be a language of some priority as well. Gnan garra 10:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Which events would Gnangarra and Orderinchaos like to attend in person to take pictures related to eligible content and documenting the history of the Paralympic movement in Australia? If I can have an idea from you both as to what you'd be targeting, I can make appropriate inquiries about changing the point system for the second round to assist photographers, or to try to give them an increased incentive to participate in the first round with that in mind. --LauraHale (talk) 11:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at WA institute of sport and APC I cant identify any events over here. I'm happy to attend any event to take photographs just let me know where I can find out about them. Gnan garra 11:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the rules, determine areas eligible for pictures and then get in touch with us regarding what events you may require press passes for. Once you have that, I can take the next step of requesting credentials for you. There is no guarantee that you'll get them but we will try. Remember, when thinking about taking pictures, one of the big over riding goals of this project is to write a history of the Paralympic movement in Australia and pictures should assist in the goal as stipulated based on eligible content areas. As for the number of events, there are likely to be few in Western Australia but that's partially problem of timing. We're trying to support photographers as much as we can: Hence the availability of multiple ways to contribute to get points to make it more reachable for Wikimedians who don't primarily edit. Hence, some general methods of thanking contributors that go beyond London such as getting an APC hat, getting access to press passes to attend local events, and if you have some points, an opportunity to attend a workshop in Canberra. We're hoping to have at least one of these workshops specifically to talk about Commons. This probably isn't the project for Commons people, and hopefully we can use the success of this to develop relationships with other sporting organisations that will allow more focused content related to them. At the moment, this is a GLAM project being done with the Australian Paralympic Committee with support from Wikimedia Australia with the goal of writing a history. Yes, we want all types of Australian contributors, but it is hard to fit them all into one project. (It was proposed that we had a media person, but we are under the impression that pictures will be made available from London and thus some one specifically doing photography is not needed.) Commons people can get extra points by doing photo journalism type pieces on Wikinews. (And hopefully, we can have a workshop that specifically talks about Wikinews and how people can use media to publish news stories. I know this is an area Wikinews is specifically looking to address.) Back to the point: If you have some specific events you want to target during the second round, let us know and we can see about changing the point system during that round to be more favourable to Commons contributors. Just let me know what events. --LauraHale (talk) 12:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Laura, I think what Gnangarra was more interested in was if there was any events in the WA area that he could get to. Sort of hard to request a press pass for an event when you're not sure what's available :-). Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 13:31, 3 January 2012 (UTC).[reply]

My recall was there were few disability events available around Australia where opportunities were to take place during this period that would make it easy to take pictures. If he wants to take picture and wants to see points increased for it, I'm happy to make an argument about that… but given that I think there might be three eligible, I need to know what he wants to take pictures of. :) If there are few opportunities for pictures available, then the whole point is rather moot. Horse jumping calendar might have something for disability competitors (but not sure), cycling calendar may have something, Athletics Australia may also have something. The problem is, as I understand it, it will probably by more difficult to get press passes to non-APC run events. So yeah, it comes back to this: If some one is determined to take pictures and get 25% of their points through Commons and want to argue increased point value for the next round, then they need to sign up and we need events they identify that they would like to attend. I'm willing to ask these questions about the second round but I need help identifying events so I can see if these are priority areas for them that would merit a point increase. Beyond that, I want to say the APC has been pretty fantastic at releasing pictures when requested for articles. They've provided several upon request and have made an image donation already and are working continuing to work on the number of images donated. --LauraHale (talk) 19:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've been thru all those links none of them have any information on disabled events anywhere in the coutry in the next 6 months surely there are some somewhere and that there is actually a web page where people can find out about these events. This lack of simple information is going to be an issue with establishing basic notability no matter how much you pusht people to write article is notability cant be established its pointless, oh and its suppose to start tomorrow but basic questions stil aint being answered Gnan garra 03:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If there are suitable events in the next six months, you'll know about them as soon as we do. To be frank, we are expecting that W2G participants will find the local events and people themselves. There are regular National Wheelchair Basketball League events across the country. There are lists of events at http://www.sports.org.au/events.html and they are grouped by state. For the Wikinews part of the W2G pre-requisites, it is possible to interview competitors near you. If participants need introductions or interviews set up, WMAu and APC will try to assist. It wont always be possible. Also, WMAu and APC are planning workshops interstate, so W2G participants will have an opportunity to travel interstate, and these could be timed to coincide with events where Australian Paralympians are competing and/or training sessions. WMAu and APC are interested in any ideas participants may have. At the end of the day, the timeline for this W2G competition has a hard deadline because the prize is a trip to the Paralympics this year with a press pass. To win this competition, the participants will need to be resourceful and self-motivated, and they will need to learn as much as they can about the Australian disability sport sector. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 04:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. There are plans to redo this for the next Winter Games. Obviously we'll be able to plan that one better and take advantage of feedback from the community. We will try to incorporate feedback into this W2G, especially the second round, however we wont be able to make large structural changes to a running program. OTOH, if participants are having troubles with the current design (e.g. with the Wikinews component; or the problems which plagued the Indian Education Program) then the program organisers may decide that adjustments are needed immediately. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 08:07, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gnang and I turned up at an international event in our city which made several news publications, but anything we wrote about that the major newspapers didn't was complained about by the WikiNews editors and ultimately, even though we had the photographs to prove what we were saying, we had to remove it. How is an event that probably won't even make the local paper going to survive that sort of scrutiny over there? Do WMAu have some contacts in high places to allow this to happen? Orderinchaos 02:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

wikinews

Gnang and I kind of had a run-in with WikiNews ... got the distinct impression we weren't really wanted there even though we were covering topical news - they full on wasted our time over there, and after a full day's effort covering news events happening here that were making national and international news in conventional media. It's obvious that the standard of how to get an article accepted depends very much on "who you know", rather than how well you write or how relevant the content is, especially when it's Australian-focused. If you have any sway over there and can somehow convince people to actually bother to constructively assist rather than string it out with odd demands and convoluted and incoherent rules until it's "stale", I *might* consider going back for another try. It seemed so damned unprofessional and newbie-unfriendly - made me see the whole newbie retention thing in a new light (as I've heard most of the story as an experienced Wikipedian and haven't been a newbie here for more than half a decade.) I would oppose sending *anyone* there on WMAU's behest or pinning point values on that site until we get this fixed. Orderinchaos 18:17, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's what you know, not who. If you post in an encyclopedic style, don't use inverse-pyramid, use <ref> links, don't use active voice,... generally if you don't follow policies and put together a good submission, it won't get reviewed, and thus will end up stale and deleted. --Brian McNeil /^talk 22:05, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the two articles you tried to get into Wikinews, and put in userspace. One with three failing reviews and another with two failing reviews. I note on the latter someone sat and watched a video to see if it backed-up the article content, so you can hardly say nobody devoted time to your submissions. Hopefully putting these here may give others an opportunity to avoid those same pitfalls. --Brian McNeil /^talk 22:30, 4 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brian McNeil (talk • contribs) [reply]

The reality of working on Wikinews, remembering I had had 23 articles previously published all without issues before publication;

written article between 02:47 29th 03:28 29th - tagged for review
renamed by an admin at 0329 29th - 2 things here a) no review not even suggestions though the article needed categories and an infobox
added cats 0609 - 0614 called for help on #wikinews IRC no response not even a hello
0917 small copy edit intended to cause it the reappear on recent changes (6 hours elapsed no review) email sent to wikinews-l i still wait a response, still no response on #wikimews irc -- I actually still havent recieved a response 3 months later
2200 - 2215 reviewer made process edits (date order sources, categorys, wp links formats)
2250 flagged as not ready, elapsed time from review tag 19 hours, this review claimed NPOV issues thru use of term genocide in title, though accurate and supported by sources as well visually verifiable in the photographs, 19 hours elapsed since the article was tagged as ready
23:37 infobox added by another admin
0438-0446 30th rewritten to adress concerns replaced image with one which visually verifies both war crimes, genocide being protested. retagged for review elapse time since first tag 25 hours elapsed, though 6 hours was due to myself not being online
23:23 30th admin links publishers no review 44 hours elapsed 19 since review concerns were addressed
20:25 31st article reworked again though no review elapsed time 64 hours
20:49 31st review, lede need work, npov not reviewed, freshness questions 64hour elapse, (6 hours creators, 58hours waiting reviews)
00:24 1st addressed concerns and tagged for review 68hours elapsed(10hours creators, 58review) additional edits made to article
04:00 2nd renamed by admin no review, 96hours elapsed (10hours creator, 86 hours awaiting review) three hours since previous review issues were addressed
13:30 2nd reviewed "Comments by reviewer: I'm also not entirely sure previous style issues (e.g. lede improvements) have been resolved." and "Newsworthiness: Symbol unrelated.svg Not ready: This does not appear to be fresh anymore" elapsed time 105hours (10 creator, 95hours review) its now 13 hours since the previous review concerns were addressed,

all of this is available in the edit history of the original article, the biggest pitfalls to avoid is the 95hours where the article sat unreviewed and even then the reviews were incomplete so its impossible to address concerns because it was never properly reviewed. Article went stale. Gnan garra 04:45, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The key point being that at no point were we told what was actually wrong or what needed to be done in a constructive fashion which we could use to fix it. We did do our best, but we weren't engaged with in good faith. Your "don't use inverse pyramid" thing - we're not professional journalists or writers, we don't understand journo slang and no page on Wikinews was helpful in explaining it, we're just people trying to get stuff done. As for "who you know", I saw some really dreadful articles with basic factual errors on Australian political topics which were waved through with flying colours. Orderinchaos 06:35, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting how in just over 48 hours, noone seems to want to answer the questions over Wikinews's processes. I guess like many places it has an "internal mindset" which is decidedly anti-newbie in character. I reiterate my advice to the chapter that until these issues are fixed, WMAu should not base any points upon WikiNews stories by Australian editors as doing so would penalise anyone who isn't already "in-group". Orderinchaos 10:51, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I answered as best I can above. If the Wikinews component is proving to be a significant problem, the organisers will look at the issue. The competition is weighted in favour of English Wikipedia and Commons, so most folk here should find it easy to do well. The Wikinews component may prove difficult for some people, but it is a small portion of the pre-requisites. I believe it is worth the risk to involve Wikinews. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 05:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is it true that an event, in order to be recorded, needs very major coverage in national newspapers before it is notable, and it can't be written about less than 3 days after it happens? Because that's basically why our articles were rejected. Orderinchaos 06:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It would seem I should have completely avoided this discussion - since I'm now being criticised for not devoting substantial time to it, and to responding to criticism formed on the basis of "feeling slighted".

I doubt there is a single Wikinews contributor — part of the clique you perceive or not — who hasn't lost articles over review timescales, or failing to resolve issues causing a failed review. If terms like Inverted pyramid are alien, look them up in an encyclopedia. It's understandable someone well-versed in writing introductions on encylopedia articles might not understand a lede's function, content, or the appropriate grammatical voice for a news article. But, knowledge of how to write in an encyclopedic style, even for Wikipedia, does not teach how to construct a news article. Perseverance, practice, and a familiarity with quality journalism do.

I feel your attack on the small Wikinews community is unwarranted, Orderinchaos. Some constructive criticism might be of more use - such as where the project's policies, and essays intended to provide guidance, failed you.

And, to reiterate: it's Wikinews, not WikiNews, much like here isn't WikiPedia. --Brian McNeil /^talk 23:20, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I argued that it is newbie-unfriendly, and exclusive, and my point stands. Where is the help offered to newbies rather than the less-than-subtle attempts to drive them away? Where is the "Step by step guide to creating a Wikinews article"? I did look, but couldn't find one, and what I did find was not written in a manner that the sort of person who would actually need to reference it could understand. I did actually look up the "inverted pyramid" thing when it was said and thought I *had* conformed to it, so didn't understand the criticism. And I've got a degree, am on my way to a second, have won awards with essays I have written and have written articles for community newspapers, so I can only imagine how younger or less-educated people would feel - intimidated, in a word. It comes down to this - don't speak in code - be clear - just as is asked of newbies! What is the need to speak in alienating jargon and not use links to explain things - why not just say "Do this and this and don't do this" instead? I *honestly* totally got how newbies feel on Wikipedia after my brush with your site. And the delays Gnangarra mentioned were totally unnecessary - there was only 7 articles being reviewed at the time, and only two reviewers - itself an indication of the health of the site. And apologies for my miscapitalisation of the site's name. Orderinchaos 23:48, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you've now finished the "edit twitch" expansion of reiterating the original complaint; one that can equally be made against Wikipedia by outsiders unfamiliar with its jargon, or code.

But, what of the constructive criticism I asked for?

Or are you avoiding mentioning a sin we're all frequently guilty of? Namely, thinking one can construct something without reference to the instructions. I certainly saw a fair share of that with the first batch of UoW students; final year students who submitted editorialising articles because they didn't need to look at the instructions. In stark contrast, the second batch — in their first year — read the fine manual and fared far, far better.

At present, improving introductory texts will have more payoff than responding to syndicated reruns of your personal complaints. What, exactly, failed you in Wikinews' welcoming template? You're still harping on about an article that failed several times on point 4. And, I see no jargon or code there. --Brian McNeil /^talk 02:38, 16 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brian McNeil (talk • contribs) [reply]

I have a disability, so I do sometimes do things with a number of edits. My apologies if this offended.

I reiterate - where is the guide to writing articles? "Read the fine manual" - something that as a net denizen of some 20 years I'm *well* aware of - works only when the manual is written to be understood. I followed the instructions as given in that template - my article failed. I was not told in any meaningful or reasonable way why, and after having already tried to help Gnang's article, I gave up as I realised the task was hopeless. I felt like I was trying to hit a moving target and its actual location was a closely guarded secret. Pick something current? - It had happened the same day. Use two independent sources? - I did that too. Read your sources before writing the story in your own words?. Do choose a unique title? - Did both of those. Follow Wikinews' structure? - This seems to be the bit where I came unstuck, as I had *no* idea what "Wikinews' structure" is - it seems to be different than for any other publication I've ever written for, judging from the fact that it failed. Orderinchaos 03:44, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"it" failed? Why, thank you for demonstrating you did not read the links provided in two of the three reviews you received, links to "the guide to writing articles".

"[...] (following inverted pyramid structure) [...]". This comes after being told in a detailed review the headline and (again, wikilinked) lede do not reflect the content. point 2 of the 'prototype wizard states, "Write to be easily understood, by an international audience. Prefer short paragraphs; typically 30–80 words, 1–3 sentences. One topic per paragraph.", and the wikilink from lede goes to an item in Wikinews' style guide — one which states: "The first paragraph (known as the intro or lede) should summarize the article in around 50-80 words, using one to three sentences.".
"In its new form, the article does not have a proper lede, and does not appear to follow inverted pyramid style relative to its theme as stated by the headline. [...]". That's how the second review opens, and with those same two words wikilinked to the style guide.
"[...] not entirely sure previous style issues (e.g. lede improvements) have been resolved", states the third review at the point of staleness.

You've convinced me that you never looked at the manual you say is missing. Is the problem perhaps "jargon"? That Wikinews refers to it as a style guide whereas Wikipedia calls it a Manual of Style?

You still have not offered constructive criticism of the documentation provided to newbies; this point regarding the lede (or introduction if the term is too obscure) is still there. Both as I cite above and, in the welcome template, on your userpage where it states: "Follow Wikinews' structure for articles, answering as many of who what when where why and how? as you can; summarised in a short, two- or three-sentence opening paragraph." (extra emphasis added).

Take any news article from AP, Reuters, the BBC or the New York Times, and they all follow that exact same structure. The opening (lede, as Wikinewsies prefer) is pithy. It would be churlish to expect you to have written for any of these publications, but where have you written for a news source striving for professionalism?

There. I've re-iterated why the article was never in a passable state, and again pointed to sections of the "guide to writing articles" that explain not only why, but how it should have been written to be potentially passable.

Would you care to say what is wrong with the instructions in that "guide to writing articles"? --Brian McNeil /^talk 19:14, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~~Where was that??~~ (Just realised you linked it at the end, sorry.) I was looking for something like that for nearly 45 minutes on the day I wrote my article. What I did find was some thing that was so jargon-laden (all the "inverted pyramid" business etc) that I couldn't understand it, and tried to proceed anyway. My constructive criticism is - tell them where to find the easy-to-read documentation, give them exemplars (both positive and negative), kind of like a mini-course. If I could comprehend it myself, I'd help you develop it. Not everybody understands the same things from the same words - I work as an educator so I'm well familiar that I need to explain things multiple times in different ways when communicating with my students, the same is true of documentation. For interest, I'm an auditory learner in the VAK model, and I also have a visual disability which means it's very difficult to take in different things in different locations at the same time on a screen (the new Facebook timeline feature is sheer hell for me). The final thing is that none of the reviews pointed me to what I needed to do to improve my article - if they did, it was beyond my comprehension, and I would have thought that given I was brand new to the site and there was only 7 articles to review, someone might have asked me what the problem was. One of the reviews appeared to be telling me to do something with the lede that I thought I'd already done, and no guidance was given as to how to fix it. (I should note the article you're addressing was written by someone else - I came along and edited it later, although it seems my edit was part of the problem, but anyway...) Anyway, I'm time-poor, and I've basically given up. I'm still not sure that I would be capable of writing an article which meets Wikinews's exacting and (still to me not completely clear) standards, and I'm sick of being treated in a patronising manner by someone that seems to think the only people who should write for Wikinews are semi-professional journalists, rather than community members. As was demonstrated in some of the comments I received, very very few things happening in my city would even qualify anyway due to the poor state of local print media. Orderinchaos 23:38, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, I just showed the documentation and reviews to a journalist at The West Australian, who admits that without her specialist training *she* wouldn't understand it either. That shouldn't be the way on a wiki. (She's at least offered me help on what I could do to write a better article.) Orderinchaos 23:46, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Any help on documentation would be most welcome. As I'm sure you know, the more you are familiar with a subject, the harder writing introductory texts is.

An enormous amount of work has gone into the welcome template to trim it back to a level that people will be highly likely to read all of, but tabs have been used so that all the most-salient policies are available from within it. --Brian McNeil /^talk 00:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OrderInChaos, are you able to provide any input on this? We have specific pages supposedly to target people more-familiar with Wikipedia. Having a "bad" experience with Wikinews makes your input on these more valuable. Wikinews for Wikipedians needs to catch people's attention straight away. We probably fail to push, or highlight, it sufficiently; however, where people do end up landing on it, there's a need to immediately prove a difference between the projects, give a couple of valuable 'acclimatisation tips', and get people for whom wiki-markup is trivial up-to-speed on our project's weirdness.

The above discussion is a "painful" to-and-fro of I say all you need to know is there, versus you not knowing where to look. Let's try and fix that, please. You're more than welcome to post what you find appropriate criticism on the talk pages of policies and templates, to outline how you expect to navigate to "educational content" related to contributing, or any other ideas that might lessen the steep learning curve associated with contributing to Wikinews.

Those, like myself, who want Wikipedia to follow its own policy that it is not a news site, need input from people more used to Wikipedia on the challenges facing you switching from encyclopedia entry to news report. --Brian McNeil /^talk 18:49, 19 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brian McNeil (talk • contribs) [reply]

Apologies for the long delay in responding - I was interstate and not exactly near internet for most of it. Agreed that that link is a good one. Re original reporting - I am confused by that one as that was part of why one of our articles failed the review (in essence that we had facts we could prove through photographs we'd taken which didn't appear in a major daily) - could that be better explained perhaps on the page? Also with things like "inverted pyramid" a couple of "do and don't" examples would be great for those of us that learn from example - I'd suggest having a separate page for that which is linked from any reference in "newbie" publications to it. I really do appreciate your approach to me in the above message and hope we can use this experience to improve the entry process for others. Orderinchaos 00:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let the games begin

I've reposted the notice to Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)#Wikimedians_to_the_Games. --John Vandenberg ^(chat) 05:05, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Help finding contributors

It would be fantastic if Australian contributors could help find other like minded Australians to participate. :) If we can make this a success, it opens up additional doors for creating similar relationships with other Australian sport federations, and with the major Australian sports leagues like the AFL, NRL, NBL, WNBL, A-League, W-League and ANZ Championship. If you're not interested in participating because you aren't keen to go to London, there will be opportunities to travel to Canberra and the Australian Institute of Sport for those who say get ten total points. This travel will probably come in the form of a travel grant so it wouldn't cost you. You can attend a workshop and get a look behind the scenes at the AIS. If you're particularly good at some task like DYKs, notability, GAs, Featured Articles, Commons, Wikisource, there may also be the opportunity to lead a workshop at the AIS. We're also working on helping to get formal credentials for Australian Wikinews contributors who can become accredited reporters on the project. :) So yes. Help getting people to contribute would be fantastic. :) --LauraHale (talk) 20:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Events

ID Basketball national championships are coming up. This story may be one eligible for Wikinews points because ID basketball has been a Paralympic sport completed for at the Games and is currently one of several sports trying to be included at the 2016 Paralympics. If people are interested in press passes, please let me know as I know some one at basketball ACT who I might be able to get them from. --LauraHale (talk) 02:31, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you're participating or considering in participating in Wikimedians to the Games, you may be interested in attending the events below. They may provide an opportunity to get information to write a Wikinews article or to take pictures for points on Commons. If you're not participating, it would still be great to see people attending these events to take pictures for use on Wikipedia and Wikinews. If you do decide to attend, consider hosting a Wikimedia meetup at the end or the evening of the event, or even just letting HOPAU organisers know you are planning to attend. If you leave a message on my talk page, I can help you promote the meetup. :) If you need help with organising attendance because of transport cost issues or accessibility in terms of wanting press access, again please get in touch. :) --LauraHale (talk) 06:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New South Wales

Blind Cricket

Sat, 25 Feb 2012 Burwood v Hills - T/20 (3rd Game) Vision Australia, Henley Park, Enfield [2]
Sat, 3 Mar 2012 Hills v Burwood - T/20 (4th Game) Vision Australia, Henley Park, Enfield [3]
Sat, 10 Mar 2012 Burwood v Hills - 40 overs (4th Game) Vision Australia, Henley Park, Enfield [4]
Sat, 17 Mar 2012 Volunteers match/Presentation Vision Australia, Henley Park, Enfield [5]
Sat. 24 Mar 2012 Standard Chartered Bank Vision Australia, Henley Park, Enfield [6]

Boccia

Sydney Academy of Sport & Recreation, Wakehurst Parkway, Narrabeen, NSW 2101 Monday April 30 – Thursday May 3 2012 inclusive [7]

Goalball

Feb. 25, 2012 Sydney City Cup/Round #1/Pool #1 15:00 — 18:00 [8]
Mar. 3, 2012 Sydney City Cup/Round #1/Pool #2 15:00 — 18:00 [9]
Apr. 1, 2012 Wollongong Intro To Goalball Day 11:00 — 14:00 [10]
Apr. 8, 2012 Newcastle Intro To Goalball Day 11:00 — 14:00 [11]
May. 6, 2012 Orange Intro To Goalball Day 11:00 — 14:00 [12]
May. 13, 2012 Coffs Harbour Intro To Goalball Day 11:00 — 14:00 [13]
May. 20, 2012 Sydney City Cup/Round #2/Pool #1 10:00 — 14:00 [14]
May. 27, 2012 Sydney City Cup/Round #2/Pool #2 Time: 10:00 — 14:00 [15]

Sailing

Sydney Harbour Regatta day 1 - Wot Eva Time: Sat March 10, 9:00 am to Sat March 10, 6:00 pm [16]

Wheelchair basketball

Sat 10/Mar Wollongong Roller Hawks vs Victoria Dandenong Rangers Shellharbour City Stadium [17]
Sat 24/Mar Wollongong Roller Hawks vs Adelaide Thunder Shellharbour City Stadium [18]
Sun 11/Mar Wollongong Roller Hawks vs Victoria Dandenong Rangers Shellharbour City Stadium [19]
Sun 25/Mar Wollongong Roller Hawks vs Adelaide Thunder Shellharbour City Stadium [20]
Sat 12/May Sydney Uni WheelKings vs Adelaide Thunder Sydney University Sports and Aquatic Centre [21]
Sat 24/Mar Sydney Uni WheelKings vs The Be Active Perth Wheelcats Sydney University Sports and Aquatic Centre [22]
Sun 13/May Sydney Uni WheelKings vs Adelaide Thunder Sydney University Sports and Aquatic Centre [23]
Sun 25/Mar Sydney Uni WheelKings vs The Be Active Perth Wheelcats Sydney University Sports and Aquatic Centre [24]
Sat 28/Apr Wollongong Roller Hawks vs Sydney Uni WheelKings T.B.A. [25]

Wheelchair rugby

Saturday 17 March 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Wheelchair Rugby Sydney Slam Series [26]
Saturday 07 April 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Wheelchair Rugby Sydney Slam Series [27]
Saturday 14 April 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Wheelchair Rugby Sydney Slam Series [28]
Saturday 05 May 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Wheelchair Rugby Sydney Slam Series [29]
Saturday 19 May 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Wheelchair Rugby Sydney Slam Series [30]

Queensland

Disability football

Sunday 8 April National Championships TBA Rockhampton [31]

Wheelchair basketball

Sat 10/Mar RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets vs Sydney Uni WheelKings State Sports Centre, Brisbane Entertainment Centre [32]
Sat 12/May RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets vs Wollongong Roller Hawks State Sports Centre, Brisbane Entertainment Centre [33]
Sat 12/May RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets vs Wollongong Roller Hawks State Sports Centre, Brisbane Entertainment Centre [34]
Sat 28/Apr RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets vs The Be Active Perth Wheelcats State Sports Centre, Brisbane Entertainment Centre [35]
Sun 11/Mar RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets vs Sydney Uni WheelKings State Sports Centre, Brisbane Entertainment Centre [36]
Sun 13/May RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets vs Wollongong Roller Hawks State Sports Centre, Brisbane Entertainment Centre [37]

South Australia

Blind futsal

17 March 2012 - National Champtionships, Campbelltown Leisure Centre

Adelaide, South Australia[38]

Cue sports

Wednesday 21 March 2012 02:00pm - 04:00pm Cue Sports Program - South Australia [39]
Wednesday 18 April 2012 02:00am - 04:00pm Cue Sports Program - South Australia [40]

Cycling

Sunday 04 March 2012 11:00am - 01:00pm Monthly Hand Cycling Ride - South Australia [41]
Sunday 01 April 2012 11:00am - 01:00pm Monthly Hand Cycling Ride - South Australia [42]

Fishing

Sunday 15 April 2012 10:00am - 02:00pm Monthly Fishing Trip - South Australia [43]

Para canoe

Sunday 26 February 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Para Canoe - South Australia [44]
Sunday 11 March 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Para Canoe - South Australia [45]
Sunday 25 March 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Para Canoe - South Australia [46]

Ten Pin Bowling

Saturday 03 March 2012 02:00pm - 03:30pm Ten Pin Bowling - South Australia [47]
Saturday 14 April 2012 02:00pm - 03:30pm Ten Pin Bowling - South Australia [48]
Saturday 05 May 2012 02:00pm - 03:30pm Ten Pin Bowling - South Australia [49]

Wheelchair basketball

Tuesday 21 February 2012 07:00pm - 09:00pm Northern Wheelchair Basketball League [50]
Sunday 19 February 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm South Australian Junior Wheelchair Basketball Development Program [51]
Sat 10/Mar Adelaide Thunder vs The Be Active Perth Wheelcats Marion Leisure and Fitness Centre [52]
Sun 11/Mar Adelaide Thunder vs The Be Active Perth Wheelcats St Clair Recreation Centre [53]
Sat 26/May Adelaide Thunder vs RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets Wayville Sports Centre [54]
Sat 28/Apr Adelaide Thunder vs Victoria Dandenong Rangers Wayville Sports Centre [55]
Sun 27/May Adelaide Thunder vs RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets Wayville Sports Centre [56]
Sunday 25 March 2012 11:30am - 12:30pm South Australia Junior Wheelchair Basketball Development Program [57]
Sunday 06 May 2012 11:30am - 12:30pm South Australia Junior Wheelchair Basketball Development Program [58]

Wheelchair rugby

Wednesday 02 May 2012 06:30pm - 08:30pm Murderball (wheelchair rugby) League [59]

Wheelchair tennis

Wednesday 22 February 2012 10:30am - 11:30am Local Wheelchair Tennis Development Series [60]
Wednesday 02 May 2012 10:30am - 11:30am Local Wheelchair Tennis Development Series [61]

Victoria

Athletics

Saturday 19 May 2012 12:30pm - 02:00pm,Great Ocean Road International Marathon [62]

Blind cricket

25/2 Glenferrie V St Paul’s[63]
3/3 Burwood V Institute[64]
10th and 11th March 2012 Grand Final [65]

Boccia

Saturday 10 March 2012 - Sunday 11 March 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Victorian State Boccia Titles [66]

Golf

19th to 23rd March 2012 2012 Australian Amputee Golf Open Huntingdale Golf Club Moorabbin VIC [67]

Lawn bowls

Monday 20 February 2012 - Saturday 25 February 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Australian Open -Lawn Bowls Darebin International Sports Complex, Darebin, VIC, AUS [68]

Surfing

Sunday 25 March 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm "Lets Go Surfing" Day [69]

Wheelchair basketball

8 Saturday 19 May 2012 - Sunday 20 May 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Gippsland Wheelchair Basketball Tournament [70]

Fri 24/Feb RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets vs Adelaide Thunder Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Fri 24/Feb Victoria Dandenong Rangers vs Wollongong Roller Hawks Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Fri 24/Feb The Be Active Perth Wheelcats vs Sydney Uni WheelKings Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sat 21/Apr Victoria Dandenong Rangers vs Adelaide Thunder Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sat 24/Mar Victoria Dandenong Rangers vs RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sat 25/Feb Victoria Dandenong Rangers vs The Be Active Perth Wheelcats Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sat 25/Feb Wollongong Roller Hawks vs Adelaide Thunder Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sat 25/Feb Sydney Uni WheelKings vs RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sun 22/Apr Victoria Dandenong Rangers vs Adelaide Thunder Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sun 25/Mar Victoria Dandenong Rangers vs RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sun 26/Feb Wollongong Roller Hawks vs The Be Active Perth Wheelcats Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sun 26/Feb RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets vs Victoria Dandenong Rangers Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sun 26/Feb Adelaide Thunder vs Sydney Uni WheelKings Dandenong Basketball Stadium
Sun 3/Jun Victoria Dandenong Rangers vs Sydney Uni WheelKings Dandenong Basketball Stadium (Map)

Wheelcair Rugby

Friday 02 March 2012 To Sunday 04 March 2012 Location : Melbourne National Wheelchair Rugby Series [71]

Western Australia

Athletics

Friday 16 March 2012 Athletics State Championships [72]
Friday 16 March 2012 Athletics State Championships [http://www.sports.org.au/events-calendar.html?

option=com_jevents&task=cat.listevents&offset=1&category_fv=30&Itemid=92]

Friday 23 March 2012 Athletics State Championships [73]
Friday 30 March 2012 Athletics State Championships [74]

Cycling

Sunday 18 March 2012 Cycling Super Series Road Race [75]
Sunday 08 April 2012 Cycling Super Series Road Race [76]
Sunday 13 May 2012 Cycling Super Series Time Trial [77]

Disability Football

Sunday 26 February WA Paralympic Session (with match) Cambridge [78]
Sunday 4 March WA Paralympic Session (Competition preparation) Gibbney Res[79]
Sunday 11 March WA Paralympic Session (with match) Gibbney Res[80]
Sunday 18 March WA Paralympic Session (Competition preparation) Gibbney Res[81]
Sunday 25 March WA Paralympic Session (with match) Gibbney Res[82]
Sunday 1 April WA Paralympic Camp TBD[83]
Friday 6 April WA Paralympic Camp TBD[84]
Saturday 7 April WA Paralympic Camp TBD[85]

Wheelchair basketball

Tuesday 28 February 2012 Summer Cup Basketball B Grade Location : Herb Graham Recreation Centre
Sat 12/May The Be Active Perth Wheelcats vs Victoria Dandenong Rangers Herb Graham Recreation Centre [86]
Sat 21/Apr The Be Active Perth Wheelcats vs RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets Herb Graham Recreation Centre [87]
Sat 26/May The Be Active Perth Wheelcats vs Wollongong Roller Hawks Herb Graham Recreation Centre [88]
Sun 13/May The Be Active Perth Wheelcats vs Victoria Dandenong Rangers Herb Graham Recreation Centre [89]
Sun 27/May The Be Active Perth Wheelcats vs Wollongong Roller Hawks Herb Graham Recreation Centre [90]
Tuesday 17 April 2012 - Saturday 21 April 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm Wheelchair Basketball Kevin Coombs Cup Location : WA Basketball Stadium, Perth, WA, AUS [91]

Wheelchair rugby

Thursday 01 March 2012 Time: 7:00pm - 9:00pm Location : Herb Graham Recreation Centre, Mirrabooka [92]

News stories

If people are looking for news stories in the existing press to help give them ideas on writing their own Wikinews article, the following are some articles that have appeared recently in Australian papers that are available online:

--LauraHale (talk) 04:33, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]