Yodaat
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Kaifeng Jews edit
Here is the page that mentions the 70 names (use the magnifying glass above the page to zoom in). This book has very good Chinese Jew folktales. It fleshes out the Jews travel to China and their meeting with the emperor. It has lots of dialogue and lovely illustrations. One of the tales (as told by a descendant of the Jews) says they fled Turkey to escape the knights of the First Crusade.(Ghostexorcist 04:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC))
- The reason I am so interested in the Kaifeng Jews is because for the last eight years or so, I’ve been writing an historical-fiction novel about an elderly Jew who served under General Yue Fei as a younger man. Besides, I've read many books on the Song Dynasty and they all describe the process of military conscription. Any healthy man was eligible for conscription, so even Jews would have had to serve if they were called upon. I came up with the idea well before I read Inscriptions. I am also writing a reference book about Yue Fei’s archery teachery, Zhou Tong. (Ghostexorcist 01:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC))
- The section of the Kaifeng Jew talk page where I questioned whether Jews served under Yue Fei was before I read one of the author’s foot notes. I recently contacted the author about it and he said that he used the mentions of Yue Fei’s famous tattoo in the 1489 and 1512 steles to support his claim. I think that evidence is scant and a real stretch, but I told him about the Song Dynasty books I mentioned to you. The only people not eligible for conscription were Buddhist and Taoist priests, young and old, only male children, sons of widows, etc. So the Jews were no doubt called upon.
- The main character of my book is a young Jerusalem-born, German-Jew who survives the Crusaders’ 1099 siege of the holy city to grow to manhood in Kaifeng’s Jewish community. There is some historical context for this since the Chronicle of William of Rubruck mentions how a Parisian goldsmith named William Buchier lived in the Mongolian kingdom of Karakorum in 1254.[1] This was only just revealed to me by a professor at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. The character is conscripted into Yue Fei’s army and helps fight the Jurchen. He later returns to Jerusalem as an elderly man to die.
- It will be some time before I am prepared to publish because I’m trying to make it as historically correct as possible (but I will rely on legends if they are better known than the actual history). I have to study Crusader/Jerusalem history and culture, Song Dynasty history and culture, Jewish religion, Kaifeng Jew history, etc. among other things. I'm not Chinese or Jewish, so it's a complicated write.(Ghostexorcist 03:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC))
I apologize in advance for the size of this comment. If you want to know how I came to study the Kaifeng Jews, I must start at the beginning. When I first began writing my story, it was like Dragon Ball Z. Then I watched a certain anime movie and pretty much copied the story line for my own. I noticed the storyline ran parallel with some of the folktales of Norse mythology that I loved so much, so I mixed it all together. But I wanted a character that was good at Kung fu, so I started adding elements of Chinese stuff. However, the Chinese stuff soon enveloped everything. The more I learned about Chinese culture, the more I liked it. Then I got involved with martial arts in high school and learned about Yue Fei.
While I was in the 82nd Airborne Division years later, I bought a book by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming that presented a small bio on Yue Fei. I became hooked on everything Yue Fei. I took the main character from my highly-evolving storyline and made him a soldier under Yue Fei. Sometime later, I read this article about the Persian Prince Pirooz who was exiled by the Arabs and later became a general under the Tang Dynasty. After reading about the Hashshashins, I concocted a storyline where the main character’s father was a Muslim assassin sent to china to kill a Chinese Duke that was a descendant of Pirooz. To make a long story short, I couldn’t find enough info on Muslim communities in 12th century China.
Then one day, while researching the secret war between the Hashshashins and the sultans of the Seljuk empire, I came across some material that said something about Jews complaining to the reigning Sultan about the Crusaders attacking Jerusalem. So I started researching Crusader history and stuff about the Jews. After some research, I came across info about the Kaifeng Jews and have been hooked ever since. My love for all things asian has driven me to pursue a degree in Asian Studies. The book I am writing about Zhou Tong will serve as my doctoral thesis in Chinese history.
As far as your questions on the Kaifeng Jews go, it ultimately depends on what time you believe the Jews arrived in China. If you believe they arrived in the Han, they would have been outwardly Chinese and wore the same clothing (barring their "blue" turban) by the Song Dynasty. They would only have been Jews inside of their synagogue. If they arrived in the early Song Dynasty, they would have stuck to Jewish beliefs common in the 10th century. If this last one is you, I suggest that you look at material regarding the ways of Jews in Israel and Persia during the same time. The Kaifeng Stone Inscriptions describes the Jews’ religious practices based on what is inscribed on the steles. One of the interesting things about this section is that it gives a reason for why the Jews could have come during the Han: Because they kneeled when praying.
During the time of the Prophet Ezra, Jews kneeled when praying. But after the Christians adopted the practice, Jews were forbidden to do it. If the Jews had come to China before kneeling was prohibited, they would not have known since they were disconnected from the main community in the west. This is of course just one of many reasons the author gives to support his theories.
See the third chapter of this book for more details. Most of this info is targeted at later dynasties, but are still applicable. If you want email addresses to people closely connected to the subject, just contact me at my personal email here. I don't want to give the peoples' emails out on wikipedia. (Ghostexorcist 05:44, 27 April 2007 (UTC))
- By the way, the author of Inscriptions is coming out with a new book either at the end of this year or early next year called The Covenant and the Mandate of Heaven: An in-depth cultural study of Judaism and China. (Ghostexorcist 06:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC))
Ai T'ien and Matteo Ricci edit
Honestly it didn't seem like you took that long to reply, so no apology is necessary. I'm in the process of flipping through an online version of Ricci's Litterae Chinenses Anni M. DC. VI. & M. DC. VII. to see if the letter in question turns up there (so far though, I've had no luck.) Thanks for the help. --Iustinus 21:37, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- No luck so far, but I've had to cut back on that research due to some real work, and may take a while to get back. But I will definitely tell you if/when I find it. And of course, please do the same for me. --Iustinus 02:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Notes edit
Before I answer your question, I wanted to tell you about other pockets of Jews in China, India, and Burma that you might not be aware of. What follows are some of my research notes from a couple of years ago. The views I express in my notes may have changed since then.
(Begin notes)
1) The "Chiang-Min" of China [2][3] – Scroll about ¼ of the page down.
2) The "Shinlung" of Burma [4]
3) The "B’nei Maneshe" of India [5]
After reading these pages, please see my commentary below ...
COMMENTARY
Shinlung
"...With the Islamic conquest they were forced to convert to Islam. Because they spoke Hebrew, they were called the 'Semitic Speakers'. Throughout this entire period, they are said to have possessed a Torah scroll that was guarded by the elders and priests.
Continuation of their Wanderings
From Afghanistan, their migration continued eastward through Hindu Kush [INDIA], until they reached Tibet and the Chinese border. From there they continued into China, following the Wei River until they reached central China.
A settlement was established in Kaifeng in the year 231 C.E. The Chinese treated them cruelly and forced them into slavery. Thus began a process of assimilation resulting from Chinese influence. In reaction to these pressures, a part of the people escaped and lived in caves in the mountain region. They therefore acquired the names the \'Cave People\' and \'The People of the Mountains\'. They lived in terrible poverty for approximately two generations. During this period, they still had the Torah scroll with them. When they were expelled from the cave area, the Torah scroll was lost, or perhaps was stolen and burned by the Chinese."(See number 2)
I have a problem with the inconsistencies in the Shinlung history. First, it says when the Jews lived in Afghanistan; they were forced to convert to Islam by Muslim conquerors. Islam did not exist until 613-ish, so their ancestors could not have come to Afghanistan until after this time. From my research, I discovered that in 652 CE, Arab invaders conquered Afghanistan and forced it inhabitants to convert. This means the Shinlung could not have settled in China before the 7th century CE.
Second, it says they were forced into slavery and were later expelled from China all together. From my research, I have found several incidents, after the 652 Muslim incursions, but before the "Great Anti-Buddhist Persecution" which shows foreigners being targeted by the Chinese:
- 758
- Canton was raided by bands of Arab and Persian pirates based on Hainan Island...
- 760
- Thousands of Arab and Persian merchants of Canton were killed by the rebellion of Tian Shengong.[6]
I have read that the Chinese wouldn’t have been able to distinguish between Muslim or Jew. This means that in 760, even Jews could have been among those killed in southern China. Here is yet another incident, after the Great Anti-Buddhist Persecution:
"In AD 878 Huang-Chao burned and pillaged Guangzhou and murdered the foreign merchants along with many Chinese civilians. (Wang 1998:78). Arab geographer, Abu Zaid recorded that 'no less than 120,000 Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Parsees perished.' (Hourani 1995:76).
After this, it seems that the Arab merchants abandoned the South China Sea and relied on south-east Asian shipping to supply the ports on either end of the Isthmus of Kra. These ports could have been operating for centuries, and the Arabs could have cut out the middle men by sailing directly to China, and they did this until they were forced to leave in 760 AD." [7]
Most scholars believe the Jews involved in the 878 massacre were killed not for their religion, but for "noncompliance" with the rebel Huang-Chao’s commands. Many of the books I’ve read on the Jews of China state there was never any instance of Antisemitism in Chinese history. Because of these facts, I’m guesstimating the Shinlung either got their dynasties mixed up or fabricated the tale of their Han Dynasty settlement in order to cast the illusion of antiquity.
(End Notes)
Ultimately, I don’t have a definitive answer. I would like to think the Jews settled in China before the time of Christ since parts of the steles describe religious practices dating to certain eras. However, the steles are full of contradictions. Jews have concretely lived and traded in China since the 8th century. If a large pocket of Jews lived in Kaifeng during this time, don’t you think the Jewish merchants in southern China would have known about them and then brought back news of this community to their point of origin? If the Kaifeng Jews had really lived in China since the Han, don’t you think they would have built a state-recognized synagogue centuries before 1163? Then again, like the one expert I told you about speculated, the Jews could have come to china and built their synagogue before 1163. The first stele was carved during the Ming Dynasty, which traced it’s pedigree to the Song. This means it could have been built during China's many fragmentation periods, but was attributed to the Song.
I know it was before the 14th century because I remember reading about Jews being called up for military services and being ordered via imperial decree not to intermarry within the community during the Yuan Dynasty. But for general purpose, I've decided to go with the Han Dynasty theory for my book. (Ghostexorcist 11:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC))
Hello Yodaat edit
I added just a tiny amount of info to your Jeffrey Satinover article. LoveMonkey 17:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Hey could you help start Fire in the Minds of Men: Origins of the Revolutionary Faith for James H. Billington? Thanks P.S. good article for Satinover by the way. LoveMonkey 01:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
You are the man! THANKS! (Barnstar) LoveMonkey 02:52, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
It's no problem! edit
No thanks are necessary for the Kaifeng Jewish links. Somebody had to put them up there, and it might as well be me! Albert Cheng 21:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Chaim Yisroel Eiss edit
Hello. I commend your efforts to try to recreate and improve this article, but please see my IMPORTANT NOTICE at the top of the Talk page. Please don't take offence at the notice, but I feel it is important to protect against re-creation of previously deleted pages. —gorgan_almighty 11:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
- Back when the article first was tagged as not having secondary sources and so on, I searched various kinds of databases to see if some existed, but none of the databases I have access to in English had anything at all. So I think the best we can do is find a relevant subject page (e.g., people who saved Jews in the Holocaust) and add a mention of this person, together with the link to the page about him. Lawikitejana 12:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Even more ironically than your note, while you were creating a Talk page for the redlinked George Mantello article (didn't know that could be done!), I was creating the article!
- Please see Talk:Chaim Yisroel Eiss. —gorgan_almighty 16:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
- No worries, I was not suggesting any immediate move. I was simply trying to prevent this article from laying stagnant for months like the previous version did before I finally proposed it for deletion. —gorgan_almighty 12:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Signpost updated for July 30th, 2007. edit
Apologies for the late delivery this week; my plans to handle this while on vacation went awry. Ral315
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"From German WP" edit
If you are going to copy-translate articles from other Wikipedia(n)s, as you did here from this article that I wrote, the GDFL requires you to be more specific in regard to your source than just "German WP". Ideally, you should mention the exact URL and version of the article you used. Please refer to sections 4 and 8 of the GFDL for thorough information on what you need to do when you translate GFDL licencensed material. --Asthma bronchiale 06:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- I just did a little proofreading of Tamaya and didn't find much to better there; Kudos. The usr above is right, btw; see also Wikipedia:Translation. Feel free to contact me. Cheers and happy editing. Lectonar 15:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Signpost updated for August 6th, 2007. edit
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DYK edit
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On 8 August, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Tamaya, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page. |
--Circeus 22:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Massive Chinese Jew book edit
I recently acquired a copy of Bishop William Charles White's "Chinese Jews" in the mail yesterday. It was the first "major" study of the community and it's people. My copy is a whopping 643 page 1966 reprint of the original 3 volume version from 1942. It must weigh a good two pounds! It has three sections: (1) History (2) Inscriptional (translations of the 3 Ming and Qing Dynasty stone monuments left by the Jews) (3) Genealogical and has pictures of various Chinese Jews and artifacts throughout. I highly suggest you track this book down.
I recently wrote a review for it on Amazon. Check it out. --Ghostexorcist 05:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- My book is coming along nicely. Bishop White's book will be a great aid to my research. Oh, I forgot to mention that White's book also has family genealogy charts that trace the family Trees of several Jews back hundreds of years. My favorite part is the section that has short biographies for many historical Jews. It also translates the personal diaries and gazettes written by people of the community. I'm sure you can track the book down via an inter-library loan. Good luck. --Ghostexorcist 01:08, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- I looked it up and the Library of Congress has the book on file. You should be able to get it through their inter-library loan service. --Ghostexorcist 03:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- Do you remember that book The Kaifeng Stone Inscriptions? Well, the author has a new book that was just published today. You can find it here. He has been keeping me updated on it's progress. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- I know you had previously said that the book was a bit too pricey for your range. I believe it was something like $90 or above the last time I corresponded with you. However, I was searching Amazon for any new books on the subject and someone is selling theirs for $42. That is rock bottom pricing as far as I'm concerned! I have spoken with some scholars who claimed they paid upwards of $250 for there own personal copy. I only paid $78 for mine. It is the jewel of my Chinese-Jew collection. I don't know how active you are on Wiki anymore, but I hope you get this message. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:34, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Someone is selling a copy for $60 or your "best offer" on ebay. see here. I'm sure you could work the price down a little. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Signpost updated for October 22nd, 2007. edit
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Hey edit
concerning: translation edit
A happy new year to you too; and how can I help you besides pointing at WP:Translation. If you want to translate articles from other wikis or to other wikis, almost every other language wiki has its own variation of the above mentioned page. Or perhaps I misunderstood your question...so ask away. Cheers. Lectonar (talk) 15:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ahhh, now I see...the point is, no one is doing this by the book as detailed here; the secret is to put in a permanent link to the version you're translating off, and it goes on the talk-page. Cheers. Lectonar (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
PS: some more regarding attribution can be found at meta:Help:Transwiki. Lectonar (talk) 16:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
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Henye Meyer edit
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AfD nomination of Henye Meyer edit
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About Ahmedani edit
Dear Yodaat
You asked about reference of page Ahmedani.There are several books in which we can read about Ahmedani
Tareekh Balochan by Ghulam Rasool khan Korai Threekh Ahmedani by Jamshaid Ahmed Kamtar --Rasoolpuri (talk) 08:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Unreferenced BLPs edit
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Nomination of Iain Lawrence for deletion edit
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A barnstar for you! edit
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The Barnstar of Good Humor |
| גוטע נייעס Editor8778 (talk) 04:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC) |