Ulruppelt

February 2009

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Recent edits to Akhal-Teke

Hello, and thank you for your recent contributions. I appreciate the effort you made for our project, but unfortunately I had to undo your edit(s) because I believe the article was better before you made that change. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions. Thank you! Technopat (talk) 19:03, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

== Reply ==I'm very sorry that you considered my talk as rude. I'm not a native English speaker and in my language it is ok to ask who someone is. I did not ask : ""who do you think you are?" - this what you made out of it. ----ulruppelt

I wasn't going to reply to your extremely rude note ("who are you and what is your background that you feel that you can edit the Akhal Teke page?"), but have decided to do so, not to answer you, but to simply to make it easier for other editors to decide whether your future edits here at Wikipedia are to be considered disruptive or collaborative. Your edit removed several references and after having checked on the corresponding talk page to see if you were responding to consensus reached there to remove said referenced content, I discovered that you hadn't. Assuming good faith, rather than possible vandalism, I reverted your edit, and left you the perfectly polite notice above, to which I expected a reasonably polite response.

In case you were not aware of it, two key aspects of Wikipedia are a) to reach consensus when there is a dispute and, b) to ensure a neutral point of view, that is to say, it is not for an editor to decide whether the content of a reference (which at Wikipedia means a reliable source) is scientifically valid. At most, editors are welcome to present other, equally reliable, sources that may refute existing ones, thereby enriching the content of this encyclopaedia by presenting all possible viewpoints, as long as they are based on reliable sources.

That said, I would like to point out that if you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor you should discuss the matter, needless to say, politely, either with the editor at their talk page (please don't because I do not wish to discuss the matter with you further), or on the article's talk page, where other editors interested in the subject can also participate. Alternatively you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.

If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, you are welcome to seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

However, please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines before continuing to edit here, and make sure you do not make further edits that may appear disruptive, until the dispute is resolved through consensus. Continuing to edit disruptively could result in loss of your editing privileges. Regards, --Technopat (talk) 22:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Please also see my reply to you at Technopat's talk page and my own. We have VERY thorough coverage of other horse breeds' genetic disorders, notably at Arabian horse, Appaloosa, American Cream Draft, American Quarter Horse, Morgan horse, New Forest pony, Gypsy Vanner horse and so on. While it is nice to see someone who wants to work on an article, a hostile, "who do you think you are?" attitude will get you nowhere. A far batter approach is to be collaborative with experienced wikipedia editors, and WP:EUINE is proud of our record of developing many of our major breed articles to Featured Article quality. The small number of Akhal-Teke horses makes significant linebreeding inevitable once you go back a few generations, a few deleterious genetic mutations all but a certainty, and to say there are none (or only cryptorchids) is disingenuous at best. Montanabw^(talk) 23:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

July 2013

It seems my reference suggestions are supposed on this page - but how do I add footnotes - the sentence above to whole article clearly states: This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (November 2011) then I offer links to sources and then they are removed - any advice?

The Akhal-Teke (/ˌækəlˈtɛk/ or /ˌækəlˈtɛki/; from Turkmen Ahalteke (reference suggestion: http://www.ahalteke.gov.tm/ ), [ahalˈteke])

(reference suggestion to a well researched history of the Akhal Teke horse: "Sacred Horses: The Memoirs of a Turkmen Cowboy by Jonathan Evan Maslow published by Random House Incorporated, 1994" http://books.google.com/books?id=CIhpAAAAMAAJ&q=Akhal#search_anchor ).

oh no, I meant the talk page of the article: Talk:Akhal-Teke. I put your stuff there. For how to add footnotes generally, see WP:CITE. Or, if it's easier, click on "edit source" instead of "edit" (I hate the new editing format you get when you click on "edit" -- all us oldtimers use "edit source") and just put in the syntax <ref>your stuff here</ref> which will make a footnote that looks like this: and place the info at the bottom of the article. If you want, you can see how we did this at our featured articles like Appaloosa or Thoroughbred, or maybe a smaller, less-complicated FA article like Icelandic horse. Montanabw^(talk) 23:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your patience with my "How to edit in Wikipedia- training" Montanabw!!!! -----cheers, Ulrike (ulruppelt)

Glad to help with that part. I did a lot of work like this with a gal trying to upgrade Gypsy Vanner horse and it was improved quite a bit. As I put it to her, WP is not about the "pink ponies and magic unicorns" stuff (grin) that most breed organizations like to promote; it's about creating solid, neutral, encyclopedic articles. Flak is nothing new here, I'm sure the Andalusian people are still pissed that we include the reality that they DID add Arabian blood to their breed in the 1800s and that DNA studies clearly show that Barb blood was also a part of their heritage. You may be amused by my horse history humor sandbox User:Montanabw/List of horse breeds promoters claim "truly primitive bred pure since Adam and Eve" I leave no sacred cow un-tipped. Montanabw^(talk) 17:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

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Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 15:46, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Reply

Greetings Ulruppelt. Your reply raises several matters, which I shall try to respond to as briefly as possible. I agree that at first sight it may seem hard to get an understanding of Wikipedia policies, but they are really quite succinctly summarised in the five pillars. As someone versed in science, you will be aware of how “time-consuming” it can be to comply with the academic style guides, be they AMA, APA, MLA, MHRA, ACS, Chicago or whatever. And that’s just for submitting a draft version of a paper for review, never mind any other aspect (peer-reviewed, “unblinded”, "triple-blind", "open-label", etc.) involved in how the actual content is to be assessed and any further work required in response to assessors' comments.

As you know, the vast majority of papers submitted are rejected, and I can assure you that many of those are rejected not on an objective assessment of their scientific content, but simply because they do not comply with even the most basic points raised in the style guides. You will therefore appreciate that for Wikipedia to attain a high level of acceptance, there must be some minimum degree of compliance with whatever guidelines are currently “in force”. So I think that what you refer to as “time-consuming”, could better be considered an “investment”. Which brings me to another of the major points you raise.

You mention a breeder who has to subsidise his dream/whim/mission in Life with another economic activity. How many geniuses die in poverty? How many craftsmen are forced out of business when cheaper and shoddier products flood the market? How many honest citizens suffer from the incompetence and/or corruption of their elected representatives? I could go on and refer to all the even greater injustices that afflict the human race, but it really is neither here nor there. There’s nothing an encyclopaedia can do about that. Wikipedia is not a forum or a lobby and cannot therefore concern itself with issues such as the cost of a business operation and whether it is a loss-making activity or not. What it can do is make as much information as possible available to as many people who wish to take note of it. And do it as "honestly" as it possibly can, which means providing all available data as objectively as it can on as many aspects that can be considered relevant to a subject. That said, reaching consensus can mean that important things sometimes get left out or that more weight is given to certain aspects than to others.

I don’t doubt for a moment that there are things that need correcting in the article in question. I can assure you that I disagree with many of the things I read about here at Wikipedia, and elsewhere for that matter, but as long as it is referenced from a reliable source, it stays. There are even objective facts on certain issues that I know of from first hand experience that I cannot include precisely due to the lack of references. The most that can be done is to try to ensure that space is given to presenting precisely those other, substantiated, opinions that inevitably exist in any area. And even then you may find that consensus is against including them. It’s frustrating, but thems the rules of the game, and if I wish to play in this league, thems the rules I abide by.

Finally, the article on humans does actually refer to infectious diseases, deficiency diseases, hereditary diseases such as sickle cell anemia, and the Global burden of disease, together with the following gem: "Genes and environment influence human biological variation from visible characteristics to physiology to disease susceptibly to mental abilities. The exact influence of genes and environment on certain traits is not well understood."

I apologise for the extension of the above, but I hope it helps to make the situation clearer. BTW, when I replied to you yesterday, I was unaware of the existence of a specific Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine, otherwise I would have suggested you raise the issue there, as well as at the corresponding article talk page. Regards, --Technopat (talk) 18:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

A note to the above, the economic problem is true of horse breeders worldwide. Most barely break even on their horse business and have outside sources of income. Look at all the big Thoroughbred farms; most are owned by millionaires who got rich elsewhere... Montanabw^(talk) 23:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I also posted this at Technopat's page, but it's better to post it here: Well, that's exactly the same reasoning that the Arabian, Quarter Horse, Appaloosa, Mini horse and every other breed I've run into say when their little genetic secrets are exposed. They are always "rare" diseases and "telling people about it will destroy the breed" and etc... I'm sorry that I am not in the least sympathetic. Almost all breeds have genetic issues, and breeders have a moral obligation to be honest. I suggest your industry starts supporting funding research to develop DNA carrier tests for these conditions so people can choose to avoid breeding known carriers to each other. I know from my own background with the genetic disease issues in another breed that you often still have to breed carriers to preserve genetic diversity, but if you avoid breeding two carriers of recessive conditions together, you can, with a "breed to replace" approach, eventually clear a bloodline of the problem (unless it's something like the Paints with lethal white syndrome or the leopard complex with the Appies, where the problem gene is also linked to a desired breed trait) Since the horse genome was sequenced, it is not nearly as expensive as it used to be. The Arabian people that bred the Egyptian lines started getting DNA samples gathered and gave a five figure grant to Cornell and had a test for Lavender foal syndrome in less than a year after the money was made available. The Quarter Horse industry doesn't seem to be hurt at all in spite of HYPP, HERDA, PSSM, DSLD, wobbler's, and god knows what else they've got over there. The Appies were in decline long before their blindness thing was verified as linked to the Lp gene, but their head in the sand "it's a wormer" denial made them look like fools. I also know (straight from a research vet who is in a position to know) there is also genetic stuff in the Peruvian Pasos and the Friesians, but can't find a whistleblower site to say so in the articles yet. Montanabw^(talk) 17:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Photos

I think we have enough photos in the article for the amount of text that's there. However, when we took out the old lead image of the so-so horse, we DID lose one thing: a photo that really shows that rather unique "metallic" glow the cream and gold-shades can get; the perlino, though nice, just doesn't show it, either, nor does the one of the jumping buckskin. Can you find anything that really "pops" out? (FYI, another example of horses that might have Akhal-teke ancestors is the Kinsky horse - FWIW, I have a palomino-colored mare of about 25% Kinsky breeding, and she's got that metallic gold shade... interesting) Montanabw^(talk) 22:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

1. 1. Yes - I'm sure I can find a photo with a more exciting gold sheen. And I've seen a number non-tekes now with a fabulous sheen - even the Palomino QuarterHorse mare we have on our ranch looks like liquid gold in the sun. The problem is that I need to publish my own work and I have only

      

      Tasirli, golden Akhal Teke stallion at the presidential stables in Ashgabat, Turkmenistan

      or

      

      Tasirli, golden Akhal Teke stallion at the presidential stables in Ashgabat, Turkmenistan

      or

      

      Tasirli, golden Akhal Teke stallion at the presidential stables in Ashgabat, Turkmenistan

      or

      

      Tarzan, golden buckskin Akhal Teke stallion2

      or

      

      Akgez Geli, cremello Akhal Teke colt 2009 at World Championship in Moscow3

      or

      

      Akgez Geli, cremello Akhal Teke colt 2009 at World Championship in Moscow

      . I canask a friend of mine who is a professional photographer if she would be prepared to make one of her photos available - but she might not since she is earning money with it.

Our own work is often the saving grace of wikipedia because it is, at least, free of copyright problems, (even if, in my case, the technical quality some days makes me cringe!) I'll see if I can find a place to pop in the shiniest one! One of the things a professional photographer I know who edits WP does is upload her "culls" (Notice that horse in the lead image of Arabian horse is wearing splint boots? It was a test shot... Ha! ha!) Montanabw^(talk) 21:07, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

To Montanabw - thanks for including Tasirli's picture. We have found a good confirmation shot of a golden Akhal Teke from an owner - now said owner needs to follow the directions on Wikipedia Commons to upload her photo. let's hope she is not a tech hater. Ulruppelt (talk) 15:31, 10 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt