Tridentinus

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Check this out

• Bosco

Trento

What article are you referring to? Attilios 13:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Trentino

You are from Trentino then? Pleasure to meet you. I'll take any positive or negative critisism you have. Maybe that I live in the US and just visit in the summers, I become more sensitive to people coming on here and pushing a, what I feel, biased POV. Whatever. :) Taalo 01:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Val di Non

So what town are you from afterall? I should send you an e-mail. Taalo 19:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

city names

Hey Sir, could you point me any place where I can find what the names of the local towns in Val di Non are in Nones? Or what the dialects (Nones/Ladin/etc.) call the major towns in the region? Taalo 18:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

ciao

Hey ciao Tridentinus. How is your new year going? I'm interested to begin again in this study of the history of the names, etc. in the local "dialects". Also, if I register an e-mail address, I can send an e-mail to you offline? By the way, in Nones: Trento=Trent; Trentino=Trentin; Alto Adige=Alto Adige? What is the word for Tirolo di Sud/Südtirol? Just the same as in Italian, or Tirol di Sud? I'm also wondering if in Ladin it is really Südtirol or is this perhaps a consequence of political alliances? In the end I would actually even like to properly list all names in Trentino-Alto Adige in Italian, German, and the local Italian dialects/languages. For example, Nones: Trentin-Alto Adige/Tirol di Sud (if that is correct) Taalo 23:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested moves

I re-opened the discussion on the move of Trentino-South Tyrol and South Tyrol. If you want to say your opinion, you're welcome. --Checco 07:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• Don't forget to give feedback on South Tyrol. Taalo 22:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Map

Tridentinus, when you can, please look at [1]. From this map I just discovered we speak Venetian in Trentino! :-) Taalo 22:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Trentin variation of the italian dialect i not exactly as venetian dialect but almost (I understand a bit of Trentin and Venetian dialect, but Nones is different--Martin Se 20:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Heh, my mother comes from southern Trentino and one of her favorite stories is how it took her years to understand casual conversation around her. But I agree with Martin, a pale form of Venetian is taking over in Trento. But to the extent shown on that map? A bit too much, I'd say. Tridentinus 23:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Angry People

Man, what is with the anger these guys have? I thought people could at least have some compromise, but I can see one side seems to live off this monumental battle to have 100%. Anyway, I still need to read your post about the languages in more detail.

• You'll probably want to ask an admin other than john k. about it. he doesn't want to hear about T-AA/ST for awhile. :} Taalo 16:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi tridentus You know Nones Dialect? Taalo says it is a raeto roman language. I know a bit of gardena dialect of ladin but I don't understand Nones! cut You give me some exemple?--Martin Se 20:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Tridentinus is also from the Val di Non. I can understand Nones, and to me it does seem quite similar to Ladin; not surprising as these Rhaeto-Romance languages are the long-time local languages of T-AA/ST. Nones and Solardo are not dialects of Standard Italian (Tuscan). Anyway, I don't know how to spell stuff in Nones.. but to say vieni qui, it is something like.. ve chi. Taalo 20:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Trentin/venetian for andiamo is vem vieni qui in ladin is vie ca--Martin Se 23:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

awesome. :) Taalo 00:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Taalo: come here in Nones is "vei cita", or "vei ci" (plural "nidé cita/ci"; "chi" is Tridentine). Andiamo ("we're going", right, not the exortative?) in Tridentine is "nem". Tridentinus 23:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• ok, vei ci is what I was thinking. Sorry, my writing sucks. :} Taalo 00:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not as you're supposed to know in depth the transliteration conventions- they're pretty much undefined as it is. following the traditional Italian models, the difference is that "chi" would be pronounced "ki", "ci" is like in English "chili". Tridentinus 00:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you are right, and "ci" is the sound I was trying to explain. I think I need to put my Italian down to "2" also. *sigh* Need to find some time to study, in between the edits wards, etc. ^_- Taalo 00:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll reply here, Martin, as I don't know if you want to use your page again. The point is, Nones shares with the recognized Ladin dialects a series of common phenomena (vowelization of L before a consonant; preservation of l in the pairs BL, PL, FL, CL, GL; the shift from QU- to ch- and GU- to gh-; the formation of diphthongs from Latin's short E and O; the second singular form of verbs in -s) and lexicon. As you know some Gardenan, have these little list (format: Gardenan and Nones): aghèl-acàl (irrigation channel); bìescia-biècia (sheep); comedòn-condòn (elbow); dausin-dausìn (near); dunfièrta-donfèrta (alms to the Church); mëutra-mòutra (tub); sopa arestida-supa rostida ("fried soup" - try it next time you're there, or ask about brobrusà in Trentino); tarlui-tarlùc (lightning).
I'm taking this (which I cut because it was even longer) from Quaresima's "Vocabolario anaunico e solandro"; he comments that it is explained by the ancient continuity of the Dolomitic Ladin area. But, he adds, Anaunic dialects also have unique characteristics respectively to Ladin: it never changes the accented a into an e like it does; ignores plurals in -s, doesn't make diphthongs out of long E and O ("to ei, ou"), etc. And I won't bother you further, you can find it all in the introduction to his book - page XII-XIV.
Historically, Nones was recognised as being Ladin-rooted by Graziadio Ascoli himself; but, he added, the Ladinity of the area is exhausted, strained to the limits because of the pressure of Tridentine. The importance Val di Non had (just consider how the Thuns, Madruzzos and likes all wanted a piece of the area) caused its isolation to break earlier than the rest of Ladin areas. But, I can offer that presently our daily newspaper Trentino very often hosts in its Ladin page a short article in Nones about our process of recognization; also, these international lists here (1), (2) include it. The problem, heh, is another relic of the past, when Ladin was an object of contention for Germanization earlier, Italianization later: in both periods the pro-Italy faction had every interest in keeping the official borders of Ladin as circumscribed as they could - conversely, dig up some texts from pre-WWI Tiroler Volksbund and you'll find their claims that Nones and Solandro were by full right Ladin dialects. Case open then? You may also wish to read this Ladin page (German version) here; consider the first map and the paragraph beginning with "Dem ladinischen Sprachraum zugezählt werden kann auch das Comelico...". My opinion: if Ampezzo is Ladin, then so are we; if something (id est, our Ladinity) is decaying, the choice is between trying to preserve it, or let it be lost forever. Servus, und alles güte, Tridentinus 23:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

To make easier the comparison, let me translate part of the Pater Noster in Nones; compare it with the Ladin forms on the same Ladin website I linked to; page is this one.
Pare nòs che stas en ciel,
sibia santificà el to nom,
vegnia el to regno,
sibia fat el to voler
come en ciel enzì 'n tera. Tridentinus 00:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

• great explanation Tridentinus, it is all very interesting. I am of course in favour of preserving. I still compare Italy to China with their many languages. We have Sicilian, Ladin, Tuscan, etc. They have their Mandarin, Cantonese, Min, Hakka, etc. Mandarin is their "Standard Chinese". The issue though is they also risk losing the diversity of their hundreds of local languages. That is why I was saying one time that the idea of an "Italian" is so broad, just as is a "Chinese". Anyway, the irony in these arguments of Italian vs. German is most of it risks overshadowing a chance to capture the history of this provincial Latin that belong to this area of the Alps. Taalo 00:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I read last week on the newspaper that the Consulta ladina of Bolzano has welcomed a Nones in its ranks: Mr Menapace. The article (one of those in Nones I had mentioned above) mentioned the creation of a circle for Nonesi living there to meet and talk "en lengua" similar to those Sardinians and others have.
Theoretically all Italian dialects, and standard Italian itself, are just dialects of Latin - so wrote a very learned guy in the Accademia della Crusca forum. I can't really tell if the Chinese situation mirrors this, but at least Cantonese is not at risk being a thriving community that even makes its own film dubs, when they don't do the films themselves. Other languages in China aren't especially welcome - what do Tibetans speak? Never mind, you wait some more time and Mandarin will do should you travel there. For Chinese-of-China languages I suspect Peking isn't that worried, though. Just out of curiosity, how are dialects like Geordie in the UK or Cajun in the USA doing? Tridentinus 19:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

motion to close mediation

hello there,

there was a mediation offer quite a while ago concerning the issue of Trentino-South Tyrol. I am happy to announce that the issue has been discussed, voted upon and settled. However the mediation offer still needs to be officially closed. Please take a minute to visit the page Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-10-20 Trentino-South Tyrol and put your signature at the bottom if you agree with the decision, thank you. sincerely Gryffindor 20:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• A very important note. This mediation offer concerned the greater overall naming convention to use in this region, not just the name of the region itself. We came up with a very good compromise for the regional name itself. I for one am still looking forward for Lar to help us out. Taalo 21:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Province of Trento

Hi Tridentinus, do you have any ideas how we can have provincial pages like Province of Trento and Province of Bolzano-Bozen as well as pages for Trentino and Alto Adige/Südtirol (South Tyrol)? The engineer in me likes to see a consistent solution like having a Province of X page for each of provinces of Italy. Of course I'm also aware of these areas overlapping what is also Trentino and Alto Adige/Südtirol. It doesn't look right to be to have a Trentino page which has provincial information like Province of Bolzano has right now. Can you see of a good way to split both pages and have them inter-linked? I would be quite happy to see a Trentino page with some text on it, but just as well I wouldn't necessarily want to see the Province of Trento page just become a redirect. Anyway, some ideas would probably help us out. Taalo 05:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Nones

Hello Tridentinus, could you help me make a language userbox for Nones? For example if one wanted to write something like "Questo utente può contribuire con un italiano di livello intermedio", but in Nones. Also, I have setup e-mail on my user page, so please send a message sometime. Icsunonove 00:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC) reloaded.

Thank you very much for the translation!! ;-) I will add it very soon. Icsunonove 18:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, added it. Just a beta version. :-) Icsunonove 06:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Trentino

Hi Tridentinus, as for a Trentino page. Don't you think we could maybe figure out a way to have both an Autonomous Province of Trento page and Trentino? That and I really doubt a certain user's intentions. :-) Icsunonove 06:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Ortisei

We've successfully wandered from Merano to Ortisei at the Merano talk page. Comment when you have a chance..heh Icsunonove 22:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Province of Trento

hey there, we had a discussion and a vote once on this issue. I agree with you that there was a majority to move, do you think we should go ahead or have another vote again? Gryffindor 15:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your support. I am obviously getting criticised again for doing IMO the right thing by using the most common name and following up on the results of our poll. Might wanna drop by and give your thoughts on the talk page... sincerely Gryffindor 22:25, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

You are doing the wrong thing. This was not a vote, and a hairline majority is no decision/leave things as they were. I must assume that you know no better; but Gryffindor is expected to. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

It's indicative of a tie. I don't care deeply about the issue myself, and suspect you are right that part of the issue is Category:Provinces of Italy. If you want to strike a blow for Germandom, however, you may be better off googling Trento v. Trent (the city). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

How does Wikipedia make decisions? Slowly and by WP:CONSENSUS. This is not majority voting; neither is it the liberum veto of the EU. Essentially we have made a decision if there is a supermajority agreement to change something strong enough that a handful of dissenters can be ignored. When there is no decision, there is a strong preference to stay with the older, established, condition until there is consensus to change it. That is the case with the Province of Trento/Trentino now. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Exact numerical standards for the supermajority required have been proposed, and rejected, quite often: the better arguments should win, not the side best at canvassing. But 75% is common, two-thirds is minimal; enough to be sure that the majority is not the effect of chance, of who happened to be aware of the !vote (this is "not-vote"; some older Wikipedians are pedantic about WP not being a democracy.) . Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:15, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

You are encouraged to argue; you may want to read WP:ATA on arguments which don't get very far. (That's on deletion discussions, but the principles apply everywhere.) But if consensus develops (not that it has here, much), do wait till there are some signs it has changed until continuing to argue.

As for small numbers: yes, that's one reason we insist on supermajorities. Most admins close 2-1 as no consensus; but 3-0 or 5-1 usually is accepted. (There are special cases, of course, both ways.)

Regards, Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see (it's out of my field) why Trentino matters; if you explained that it might help, at least for the reasonable middle. (One possibility you might want to offer: it's perfectly in order to put a cat on a redirect. That way A's preferred name shows up in the category, but anybody clicking on it gets to the article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

hey

sorry, i was gone for awhile, and will be still. too busy in the real world, especially seeing gryffindor wasting people's time again doesn't change my opinion. :-) I got your e-mail, I'll try to reply soon. regards, Icsunonove 07:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

hey tridentinus, did you receive my reply? are you on vacation? :-) Icsunonove 04:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

BZ

Could you give an opinion Tridentinus? Thanks, Icsunonove 17:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

hey

hey tridentinus, good to hear from you again. i assume you see the germanization comes back?  :) it is lead this time by noclador in merano. you see his picture and you will understand why he tries to destroy and cleanse... Icsunonove (talk) 10:37, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

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