User talk:ThatPeskyCommoner/Archive 13

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Apologies for the revert

Let me offer apologies for this edit, but I think it deserves to be discussed, and I started a discussion for it. It would probably be best to discuss it on WP:V since the same issue was discussed there. Thank you. History2007 (talk) 21:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Onoes! You reverted me! I shall weep ... or alternatively I may join the conversatiojn. But not just now Pesky (talk) 23:36, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Request for adminship

There is a Request for adminship taking place here, and your input would be appreciated. — GabeMc (talk) 05:36, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

|}

I might just have committed WikiSuicide ...

Hmmm. What do you guys think? Pesky (talk) 11:45, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as wikisuicide... but I made a similar comment about a week ago here. Hmmm. Worm^TT · (talk) 11:55, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, at least I'm in good company! We're either brave or foolhardy; but I really do believe that Teh Roolz should apply equally to everyone. Pesky (talk) 13:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

They certainly should, but clearly don't. That's one of the biggest things that keeps me from contributing more. And if pointing something like that out is considered WikiSuicide, there is clearly a large cultural problem...Intothatdarkness (talk) 16:07, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I'll get an answer when he wakes up again; must be sleepy-byes time over there atm ;P Pesky (talk) 16:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't he live over here now? Malleus Fatuorum 16:31, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Huh? Does he? I had no idea. Mind you, the sheer number of things about which I have no idea never ceases to amaze me. Pesky (talk) 16:32, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

You may get an answer, but you won't be satisfied by it. The only thing more predictable then a Jimbo personal attack is his denial that it was an attack in the first place. If you had been around in 2009 you would have loved when he called a long time editor/admin a "toxic personality".--Cube lurker (talk) 16:40, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Ummmm, if he keeps doing it, or flatly refuses to retract (or even answer), would the next step be RfC/U? ;P And how do you think such a thing might go down at AN/I? Hehe! I think I need to get some sleep, or something. Pesky (talk) 16:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

In the past, when things have come to a head, it usally breaks down into sides. Lets call them the "Bootlickers" vs. the "Malcontents". To many in each side to get real consensus.--Cube lurker (talk) 16:53, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

"the sheer number of things about which I have no idea never ceases to amaze me." is the most interesting notion I've seen here, and a sentiment with which I entirely concur. Thanks for writing it down! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:54, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Thus proving my point very nicely. It's not the personal attacks that are punished here, it's the way they're delivered and by whom, bureaucrat TRM. Malleus Fatuorum 20:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Eh? I was just agreeing with the concept. Did I do something wrong (per Malleus)? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

And there you go again. Is English not your first language? Malleus Fatuorum 20:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Seriously, no idea what your issue is here. I really liked Pesky's quote. I noted it as something I wish I'd thought of myself. What is your problem with that? (For what it's worth, I thought English was my first language, but since you questioned it, perhaps I need to re-appraise that opinion.) The Rambling Man (talk) 20:11, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Pesky, for what it's worth, I've tried to explain to MF that what I said I genuinely meant. It was never intended to be something by "bureaucrat TRM" and was always intended to be supportive of your opinion. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

TRM, that's exactly how I took your message; I read it as perfectly innocent. MF, dear heart, I really think it was innocent! (Hugz!) TRM, you might like this one, which I included in a letter to my bank many, many years ago, to reasonable (yes, financial) profit:

Never before have I had the misfortune to be the victim of such an astounding display of pathetic incompetence.

I suppose, if he were to say that it was perfectly OK to say that, we really ought to insert a section into the relevant policy to inform editors that according the Official Mandate it is now OK ... wonder if we would get consensus for it being an OK thing to say ... anyways, going to eat now. Pesky (talk) 16:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Enjoy.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Following the discussion here and related posts elsewhere with interest. Have a beer on me!, Shearonink (talk) 17:14, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Isn't Jimbo something like old-school Papal infallibility? Thou shalt not do as the Jimbo doeth, rather thou shalt doeth as Jimbo commands? Or is that just my knee-jerk reaction to such things?Intothatdarkness (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

As an experiment, you might like to try addressing the exact same comments that Jimbo makes about other editors ("toxic personalities", "trolls" and so on) under your own name and about other editors, particularly administrators; I think you'd soon discover how the land lies here. Malleus Fatuorum

And here's a question for you, which would you consider to be worse: a general reference to a class of editor as being "sycophantic" or a reference to a specific editor as being a "toxic personality"? One apparently merits a block, the other doesn't, but can you guess which and why? Malleus Fatuorum

I think I have a handle on some of the nuances that go on here. Not all, granted, and I wouldn't expect to understand all the relationships without a major investment in time and effort in many areas of this place. But I do "get the drift" as we used to say. From what I've seen (which again is limited due to time and general exposure) is that much depends on what faction you follow or are perceived to follow. Much also depends on how PC you happen to be with your comments. I know which side I tend to come down on, and what sort of behavior I don't care for. Which might explain my posting habits, I suppose. Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:27, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

It would be very nice to know exactly how Jimbo (and others) think that Jimbo fits in with policies. Do they apply to him? Do they apply equally to him? If he thinks it's perfectly OK to indulge in certain types of name-calling, could we please have a list, or should we just compile a list of our own and ensure that it's added to the civility policy as an appendix ... and if ad mins are expected to maintain a higher standard than Joe Average, wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest that Jimbo is expected to maintain an even higher one?

@MF, yes, I was thinking about direct comparisons like that one (and yes, I know who said which); what I would really like is a proper, precise answer. If one brings something up in a politely-worded message and that is either ignored or overlooked, and one really wants an answer – what next? I think, personally, that anybody who has ever been blocked for incivility deserves to have an answer to this one. Either the rules apply to everyone, or they don't. It's time we got this one sorted out. Maybe what we need is for those people with excellent memories and long-term tenure to compile a collection of diffs for a possible RfC on "Is the civility policy supposed to apply to Jimbo, or not?" or something. Pesky (talk) 23:27, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Pesky, I suspect that Jimmy thinks he does follow policy. And there are enough true believers circling to continually reinforce that (in my opinion) misconception. Many ego-driven people sincerely believe that they are following the rules when in fact they are not. Me, I've always believed that admins and those with similar status should be held to a higher standard, simply because they have power that other users do not. That higher standard, IMO, becomes more important in an environment where the appointment is effectively held for life.Intothatdarkness (talk) 13:38, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

"politely-worded"? For Christ's sake Pesky, how many times do I have to tell you that there's no hyphen after an adverb? Or was it someone else, can't remember. More seriously though this can never be sorted out, as the battle lines have pretty much been drawn; those in positions of authority can say whatever they like about other editors ("immature", "trolls", "toxic personalities" ...) whereas those not in positions of authority are slapped down for the slightest perceived misdemeanour. Basically, the children have won. Malleus Fatuorum 23:49, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Onoes, onoes! The Attack of the Superfluous Hyphens! Is this going to be as bad as the What Kind of Dash wars? Hugz to MF, anyways, lol! And the hugs are compulsory, even if they make you vomit. You have my permission to follow me around, removing any hyphens or other grammatical violations of your choice. (And it was someone else, I think, but I read it, so I shouldn't have forgotten it.) And if you could come up with a way of making my semicolon key only work when I actually want a semicolon, that would be brilliant. Sadly, the tip of the third finger on my right hand is totally numb, and it has a constant problem with hitting a ' unless I actually stop, look down at the keyboard, hit the required ', and then carry on. And, addressing your major point, things might change. It has to be worth a go ... Pesky (talk) 00:08, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

"Sadly, the tip of the third finger on my right hand is totally numb'". Maybe we're Doppelgangers? Years ago my wife and I bought a rather nice writing bureau from an antique warehouse in London (still got it), but it was riddled with woodworm. So we got some treatment for it and I started to inject the fluid into each of the holes with a hypodermic needle. Unfortunately I got careless, and suffered what I think the professionals call a stick injury when I inadvertently injected the third finger of my right hand with the wood worm killing stuff. No harm done though, still got all my fingers. Malleus Fatuorum 01:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Oops! Mine stems from an accident in which I was very lucky not to lose the whole finger. I tore a triangular flap of flesh, comprising most of the middle section of the finger, from side to side, with extensive nerve damage. (Broken clip, galloping horse ... 20 stitches). Since the neck op, the sensation and motor function in my left hand and arm is massively improved; for the first time in probably decades I am now actually aware of where my left arm is in relation to my body without having to look and check! It's weird, actually. But I've had several major injuries in the past which have damaged nerves, as well as several surgeries leaving me with numb patches. My second finger on the right hand is totally numb all up one side, from an injury nearly 23 years ago when I accidentally stuck a Stanley knife through the palm of my hand and severed the nerve which runs between the second and third metacarpals, so my right-handed typos can be quite extensive, especially if my hands are also cold! Stick injuries are surprisingly common – I've seen a few blotch-tattoos on people who've slipped while refilling ink cartridges, for example. And, sadly, a fatality resulting from someone attempting to stop a leak in a tractor's hydraulics by putting their thumb over it ... hydraulic fluid is extremely toxic. Pesky (talk) 01:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

counting which direction the "third finger on my right hand is totally numb" can you still drive ? how do you signal, wait which side of the road do you drive on in your country ? Penyulap ☏ 01:42, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Referring to the original: nah, you're fine. Nobody Ent 01:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I can still drive! Though I've only just (in the past few days) started driving again after not-driving for many months (because of the neck thing). I had to stop driving when the neck got so bad that looking around made me lose sensation and grip in the left (gear-changing) hand. I can feel changes in the angle of the finger, if there's pressure on one side of it; alternatively I use a different finger for the indicator. We drive on the left here in the UK.

@Nobody Ent; nice to know! But for how long will I be OK? ;P Pesky (talk) 01:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

So it's the middle finger of your right hand you stick out the window to signal with, got it :) I've had only minor nerve damage to one hand, my word, you do get out into the outdoors don't you. A bookworm you're not, a wallflower no way. Out there stabbing at life with a bayonet yelling, hey, what do you yell ? Penyulap ☏ 01:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, no sticking fingers out of windows! And yes, I've been handling large animals for decades, and accidents kinda happen! Generally I don't yell. When I was in my teens, I took up fencing, but my instructor wasn't keen on me competing. I can't remember his precise words, but it was something along the lines of it being possibly unfair on competitors to be faced with "a grinning maniac on the wrong end of a foil". That bit, I remember! Pesky (talk) 02:36, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, but Pesky, in the USA, that finger is "the finger" which is so widely used for so many different purposes! As far as stick injuries, I sometimes do my own horse vaccinations, and once put a used needle in my pocket without putting the safety cap back on, and within five minuted jammed my hand in there, making me both a blood sister with my favorite horse and probably providing a small amount of protection against Potomac Horse Fever! Montanabw^(talk) 17:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Have you had Potomac Horse Fever since then ? Penyulap ☏ 21:47, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Heeheeheeheehee! Nope, must have worked! (snorts coffee out nose). Montanabw^(talk) 22:21, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Eeeeeek! Animal vaccines can be lethal to humans! We had to be so, so careful with the sheep/goat vaccine which covers them for about eight different diseases; people have died from accidentally sticking themselves with that one! [Pesky shudders in horror .... brrrrrrr]. Pesky (talk) 05:23, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Blatant Canvassing

Wikistress indicator

I'm blatantly canvassing for some more people on the Autism spectrum to help out in my various policy-discussion places! Mainly on WT:V at the moment, but an ongoing informal team to assist in any policy discussions would be ideal. This really follows on from the thread I had on Jimbo's page a little while back about ensuring that all our policy pages are worded so beautifully clearly and precisely that our autism-spectrum editors don't get bogged down in a morass of ambiguities, idioms, turns of phrase, and "jolts" which work pretty-much OK for neurotypicals, but can throw the autism-spectrum editors right out of the loop altogether.

Right at this moment, I feel that I am a lone voice in the wilderness carrying the can for every A-spectrum editor in WP-en, and the weight of that responsibility is just overwhelming. It is vast, and I just can't be awake 24/7 to engage in damage-limitation exercises, trying to nip potential problems in the bud before they get set in stone. I feel ... that I'm the only person in the world, just now, trying to ensure that our policies can be understood on first reading by all our editors, and not just by the neurotypicals. Now, the understanding thing isn't an either / or situation. Many versions work well for neurotypicals but not for autism-spectrum people, but the magical thing is that something which works well for autism-spectrum people will work just as well for neurotypicals. (In fact, possibly better than the other versions.)

Do any of my fellow autism-spectrum editors, who have long tenure and a good understanding of what policies are supposed to mean, feel able to help me out? One of the other problems I face with trying to keep track of things is that, for the most part, my (alleged!) sleeping hours coincide with the majority of other WikiPeople's editing hours, so the only way I can attempt to steer things well is to stay awake and editing throughout the night, when others are editing. It's just got a bit too much for me. Pesky (talk) 06:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I can't help, I don't qualify, and the policies aren't familiar. Bot policy is funny, all of the rules say you cannot operate the bot until the approvals process has been concluded, then, the approvals process is people watching the bot operate while nobody tells you that you can operate it, followed by approval only if you've operated it well when you weren't allowed to. Penyulap ☏ 10:18, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I feel you Pesky, but maybe I can only offer moral support: I seem to be having an unofficial semi-kinda-wikibreak at the mo, and I'm not sure I fit the job specs; but, you'd be welcome to post specific examples on my talk, then if you find I can help, great, if not no harm done...? In the meantime don't burn out! No-one can do everything, etc. [hugz] Nortonius (talk) 14:01, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

[Pesky snorts coffee out of nose ...] You feel me? rofl, etc. What, on that beautiful beach at Struisbaai, with the champagne etc.? Moral support is always helpful. It's just a question of trying to make sure that we're not inadvertently saying the wrong thing to a significant proportion of our editors, on our policy pages. Ambiguity and lack of precisely-worded clarity are our enemies here. That's all it is. Pesky (talk) 07:38, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Heehee! I made you laugh – my work here is done. Have you not seen The Wire? I'm currently all wrapped up in it! :op Nortonius (talk) 11:55, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Verifiability mediation - choosing final drafts

Hello Pesky. This is a note to let you know about a discussion I have just started at the verifiability mediation. It is aimed at making a final decision about the drafts we use in step 6, so that we can move on to drafting the RfC text in step 7. If possible, I would like everyone to comment over at Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/27 February 2012/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Final drafts proposal. Thank you! — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 04:10, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

On canvassing

Regarding the canvassing part of KW's block. The wording may have been neutral, but the juxtaposition of the RfA with an ANI report - placed on a friend's page, a page with certain "known opinions", does fit with the definition of WP:CANVASS. It's clearly in violation of the spirit and to a lesser extent the wording. Worm^TT · (talk) 11:26, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

(moved from ANI) The hundreds of watchers thing doesn't make it any better - perhaps worse. The wording was sparse but the message came with a link to Dennis' comment at AN/I. A comment against KW. I mean, why else link the RFA with the ANI diff at all, if not to influence people in some way? Your insistence that his intentions were neutral is...impressively blind. I don't care if the wording (or lack thereof) saves it from being a clear WP:CANVASS case, it was clearly meant to shed negative light on Dennis. The right way to speak out against an RFA candidate is to vote on the RFA. ^OohBunnies! Leave a message 11:24, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Apologies if I appear to have misunderstood that. But ... it didn't have the effect of making me vote to oppose, just to voice some minor concerns about the recent spate of AN/I contributions, and so on. I kinda assumed that anyone else reading it would just add it to the other information they had already, and take it into acount if they felt it was necessary. Maybe I;m over-estimating the other people, I dunno. Anyways, I'm going to take the opportunity presented by the break in the weather, and do some outdoor work, and try to de-stress a bit; so I won't be on-wiki for a while. Pesky (talk) 11:42, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

So how come no admin user is calling out their fellow admin for doing essentially the same thing? Nobody Ent 11:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Does 'other stuff exists' apply to behaviour? I don't know. That's not exactly an attempt to "derail an RFA" which is I think what is cited in KWs block summary. ^OohBunnies! Leave a message 11:49, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, I haven't gone yet ... this is one of the problems. The inequalities ... some editors get walloped for what loads of other people do, some worse, some on the same day, some ... whatever. Some editors get away with calling people effectively a habitual troll, say it was justified, refuse to apologise ... and then others turn up to snark about someone leaving a politely-worded message ... "Where else in the world would you see this sort of complaining, about Jimbo yet!" [sigh]. Pesky (talk) 12:00, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree about inequalities being shit and unfair, but the solution isn't just to let everyone go around breaking the rules. And KW wasn't exactly walloped out of the blue. He's not a sitting duck who just had the bad luck of getting hit by a falling rock. He has a pattern of insulting other users. A long pattern. ^OohBunnies! Leave a message 12:07, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

@Nobody Ent, I can't answer for other admins, but that's the first time I've seen that, I don't watch Malleus' talk page. Look at it now, it does indeed look like canvassing, of the same sort of level as KW's - however, without the cesspit that is RfA thrown in for good measure. I should also mention that don't think KW's "Canvassing" was serious enough for a block, let alone a 1 month block - as I've stated before.

@Pesky, I doubt KW's comments would have influenced you or Malleus, or the vast majority of his talk page watchers. I don't believe this was the crime of the century, but implying that it was completely unproblematic is... well... problematic. Worm^TT · (talk) 12:04, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it was "completely unproblematic", just that it was over-reacted to. And I am really trying to work with KW. I know humans aren't animals, or dogs, or boa constrictors, or whatever, but humans pretty much always respond badly to being beaten up (emotionally, spiritually, whateverally), too. When people feel hurt, picked on, misunderstood, etc., they bite back. Heck, even I "bit back" in December – and it takes a lot to make me bite back. Pesky (talk) 12:11, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but on many occasions he's been the one doing the beating. ^OohBunnies! Leave a message 12:18, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Taking the canvassing in isolation, it was a supreme over-reaction. It's clearly debatable whether it was canvassing - as we are debating it. However, the block was not just for canvassing, but for repeated behaviour that has lead to blocks in the past. Indeed, if you want to look at the block as 2 weeks for canvassing and 2 weeks for incivility, I can tell you which 2 weeks were removed. Worm^TT · (talk) 12:31, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Editors with a long history of disruptive behavior get less leeway when it comes to bending the rules. This is natural, and happens every day outside of Wikipedia too. Not every rule is black and white, there is often some gray area in between. Editors who are constructive and pleasant get the benefit of the doubt. Editors who are disruptive and gruff do not. No conscious effort is made to punish KW because he's been more uncivil than others in the past. Rather, for editors who continually walk the knife edge of the line, the line eventually moves once people grow tired of it. ‑Scottywong| yak _ 14:19, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I really do appreciate all these points, I really do. Fing is, though, that I feel as though I may be the only person who's actually noticed a trend towards improvement. It's slow, but it's there. Fing is, though, fing is .. one has to be motivated to look for it! But I have seen it, I have been quietly impressed by some of it; I've noticed it's taking longer (generally) for him to get snappy, and I've noticed that a small sample of his previous-favourite "editor-descriptors" have been markedly less numerous than before. He is working on improving. It just doesn't happen all at once. It's hard for me to carry on working on things with him when we get to a sudden stalling-point, and despite the number of other things I'm crushing into the days at the moment, I don;t want to give up trying. I just feel so incredibly sad about this. Pesky (talk) 14:37, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

<Quietly raises hand> I might have noticed something like that... Worm^TT · (talk) 14:44, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Hugz to Worm! I'm glad you've noticed, too :D Pesky (talk) 14:50, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I do believe you. I hope this turns out alright in the end, I really do. It would be a shame to lose such a great editor. I just wish he'd be less...scary. :P ^OohBunnies! Leave a message 18:45, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

LOL! Nah, he's not really scary. He's intense, and very passionate, and he has trouble with understanding that most humans just don't have the level of intelligence he has; it always appears to him that they must be "doing it on purpose", whatever "it" is. (I know there are one or two who do needle him on purpose, but I don't think they do it from bad motives, either ...) I think there's a morass of mutual misunderstandings and suchlike, going back for so long. KW cares hugely about things, and his passion and intensity come out in frustration and irritability. But underneath that spiky exterior is a very, very warm heart, and oooodles of brain. He falls foul of Hanlon's razor quite often ;P He does have an offbeat sense of humour, which isn't intended to be disruptive, just quirky, but is often misunderstood, and then things just begin to escalate. Trust me that he's a real good egg at heart; he's worth taking the time and making the effort to understand and get to know a bit. There's an awful lot of depth to him. Pesky (talk) 19:38, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

See, he does seem likable! I would like to get to know him but, er, after speaking against him at ANI, I wouldn't be too surprised if he thinks I have something against him. Which is a shame because I see he likes Yes and Moorcock, and I love Yes and Moorcock!^OohBunnies! Leave a message 19:48, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Y'know, I think you two could actually get on really well. Do you like King Crimson, too? Take some time to get to know him, it's worth it. Pesky (talk) 19:54, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

There aren't many old prog bands I don't like. ;) Eloy are probably my favourite, though! ^OohBunnies! Leave a message 19:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Somewhere, somewhere, I still have my In the Court of the Crimson King album. Which I've had since yonks before you were born, obviously, hehe! Fantastic stuff. Pesky (talk) 20:02, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I love vinyls. Covers back then were so fantastic and arty, mostly because they had all that space! I've got a nice collection of vinyls, heirlooms, in my living room. My record player broke a while ago and I don't have a new one yet, but sometimes I take them out and look at the covers. ^OohBunnies! Leave a message 20:04, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I love them, too! At the moment I have access to my parents' entire collection, including old 78's ... and no time in which to play them, lol! I totally agree with you about album art. Pesky (talk) 20:20, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

A cupcake

Even if we disagree on things, I still love you and know you're trying to do the right thing. OohBunnies! Leave a message 12:20, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

yep .. what ^^ she said ^^. :-) — Ched :  ?  14:26, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Loadsa hugz to both of you (actually I'm scrounging hugz just as much as giving them out ... that's one of the nicest things about hugz ;P) Pesky (talk) 14:30, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Awwww Pesky. I sorry. :( ... I forgot my "gampa hugz". HUGGGGSSSZZZZZ .. :). — Ched :  ?  20:07, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Aahhhhhh, yessssss .... nice huggies, yummy ;P [Pesky snuggles in tighter] Pesky (talk) 20:18, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

graffiti

I don't do hugs, wikilove, cookies, pastel colors, small cute animals or barn stars; consider "Good job on KW talk page unblock" has appeared in the pattern of moss on the back of your barn. Nobody Ent 19:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! I do hugz wherever I can grab hold of them, lol! Even a virtual hug has some warmth about it. And I wish we actually had a barn; it would come in so handy! Never mind, one day I'll have a whole farmyard. Ideally one that I've either restored from dereliction, or designed myself. And, when I do have that, you're all welcome to come over for holidays and such like. Editathon-from-the-farmyard, complete with handy barrels of locally-brewed ale, and so on. Pesky (talk) 19:52, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

A c/e barnstar for you!

	The Copyeditor's Barnstar
	Dudley Clarke looks a lot better now :D Errant (chat!) 11:30, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh, Jeeze, that autie sense of humour just kicked in! Thanks for the barnstar :D

The autie-humour ... OK, the guy died quite a while back, so he must have looked really ill while he was alive ... Pesky (talk) 11:42, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I hate itchy feet!

The soles of my feet keep itching like mad! I've discovered that the big fierce wire brush makes quite a good foot-sole-scratching device, though even that's not quite man enough for the job! (I have very resilient-soled feet, as they spend almost all their time unclad, so no, they are not going to get worn away by the wire brush, lol!)

Why is itching so flaming annoying? Pesky (talk) 19:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Is it tinea  ? Penyulap ☏ 13:05, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

No, it definitely isn't that. I spend almost all my time barefoot, so it's been a very long time since I last had tinea! I suspect I may have walked on something I'm slightly allergic to; in any event, a bog-standard anti-histamine tablet seems to have fixed it. Pesky (talk) 14:13, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

According to the help desk, we can't offer medical advice :P MrLittleIrish ^(talk) © 12:20, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Keifer.Wolfowitz

Hi. Regarding the posts you've made on the talk pages of Scottywong & Demurge1000 regarding Kiefer. Kiefer doesn't need you to stick up for him in battles. Nor does Malleus, let them be men. Thanks! Crampyoldman (talk) 16:22, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

(Account blocked as trolling only account) Nobody Ent 16:48, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I won't stick up for Pesky here, she can slap down marines three times my size, and can choke with a stare that would make Darth Vader jealous. :) Penyulap ☏ 16:45, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Hehe! Nobody Ent, thank you! Penyulap, although I can drop a cow to the ground and pin it there when necessary, I'm really an old softie. Honest I am ;P Although I may have been similar to Granny Weatherwax in a previous life, lol! (Previous? Who am I kidding?!) Pesky (talk) 03:14, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I was reading your userpage

And I got to the section where you get to I'd like to be able to do a complete and thorough survey of phenotypes and noticed you have a '(' in there, but no concluding ')'. Didn't know if that was intentional. MrLittleIrish ^(talk) © 12:15, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

AH poo, ignore that last, I found it. :) MrLittleIrish ^(talk) © 12:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Hehe! It wouldn't actually have surprised me at all if I had missed the closing one ... I do that quite often! Pesky (talk) 12:29, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Well on reading your userboxen, you benefit from the advantages of OCD, so I don't think you would have. Happy editing :) MrLittleIrish ^(talk) © 12:56, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

The OCD is patchy! Because of nerve damage etc., I make so many stupid typos and so on (particularly ; instead of ') that I almost always miss something, no matter how much I look at the preview. And missed closing brackets, and fouled-up links, are a speciality of mine! Provided I don't have to rush away from the computer suddenly I usually pick them up after I've hit the save button, but if I do suddenly have to dive away, they can easily get missed! Happy editing to you, too :D Pesky (talk) 13:51, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I have a habit of messing up links, particularly Wiki Talk pages. I have an OCD in organisation. For example, my music collection, must all be in order of Artist, then oldest to newest. I have been known to look through a friends iPod, and then refuse to return it until I have sorted out their catagorisation. MrLittleIrish ^(talk) © 14:01, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

ZOMG ... that sounds so familiar ;P The local hospitals have discovered that when I get up and start tidying the ward it doesn't necessarily mean that I am sufficiently recovered from surgery to be allowed home (although it's a good indicator of whether I have got my co-ordination back)! Pesky (talk) 14:09, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

It happens with socks too. I took all my clothes to the laundrette's last weekend because I'd been too busy to stick it on at home, it built up and became too much to do at home (We don't have a tumble dryer (grumble)). So I took two bin bags full of washing, got it all washed, and when I came home I had put the socks to one side to pair and put away later that night. My girlfriend came home and stole two socks (odd socks must I add!) so when it came to pairing the socks, I was frustrated because I thought the laundrette ate them. While snuggling and watching a film, I spot two of my missing socks at once, on her feet! MrLittleIrish ^(talk) © 14:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, at least it doesn't seem as though she's the type who throws all the socks at the wall and wears the ones which don't stick ... Pesky (talk) 14:32, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Haha, well all the socks had come fresh from the laundrette. She commends the fact that I will only wear a shirt once, and I tend to change/take off my socks when I get in from work. I do think she's a keeper, she just needs to steal a pair of socks, instead of taking two unrelated socks! MrLittleIrish ^(talk) © 14:52, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

You could always decide, from now onwards, to buy all your socks exactly the same. One sure-fire way of never wearing odd ones ;P I go barefoot whenever I can (best bit of physio advice I ever had, by the way). Pesky (talk) 15:59, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I've never had the problem of odd socks, because ever since I left home to go to university I've always deliberately worn odd socks. Saves an awful lot of fannying about; just chuck all the socks into a drawer and pick out the first two that come to hand. Malleus Fatuorum 16:14, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Hahaha! The big question is, though ... if you happen to pick two which are the same, do you still wear them or do you feel a strange compulsion to get a different one? Pesky (talk) 16:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Pesky, I would go barefoot, but I seem to develop a foot odour problems when I do. And I ride a motorcycle so its probably better to wear socks to stop the rubbing from the boots. I have a tendancy to buy fancy socks with designs and stuff, so the girlfriend would pick a blue and black checkered sock, and a space invader sock. I mean seriously woman! HurHur! MrLittleIrish ^(talk) © 16:26, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

How weird! Being a barefooter generally eliminates foot odour completely. And being a first-aider gives me all too clear a picture of what could happen to a barefoot biker :o( I've seen knees and elbows grated off down to the bones from a biking injury. Not nice, at all. Pesky (talk) 16:29, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

In the unlikely event I accidentally picked two the same I'd put one back and choose another. Malleus Fatuorum 16:31, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

hey you ..

... can I email you? .. ok .. I know I "CAN" ... but just wondered if it would be ok with you. I've heard you're pretty knowledgeable 'bout some stuff .. and wanted to get your views on some things that would maybe be better said off wiki. — Ched :  ?  16:12, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Darling gramps, 'course you may! I'll probably be going (back) to bed soon, but I will answer you either (a) immediately (if I haven't gone to bed) or (b) when I wake up again. Pesky (talk) 20:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

New Pages update

Hey ThatPeskyCommoner/Archive 13 :). A quick update on how things are going with the New Page Triage/New Pages Feed project. As the enwiki page notes, the project is divided into two chunks: the "list view" (essentially an updated version of Special:NewPages) and the "article view", a view you'll be presented with when you open up individual articles that contains a toolbar with lots of options to interact with the page - patrolling it, adding maintenance tags, nominating it for deletion, so on.

On the list view front, we're pretty much done! We tried deploying it to enwiki, in line with our Engagement Strategy on Wednesday, but ran into bugs and had to reschedule - the same happened on Thursday :(. We've queued a new deployment for Monday PST, and hopefully that one will go better. If it does, the software will be ready to play around with and test by the following week! :).

On the article view front, the developers are doing some fantastic work designing the toolbar, which we're calling the "curation bar"; you can see a mockup here. A stripped-down version of this should be ready to deploy fairly soon after the list view is; I'm afraid I don't have precise dates yet. When I have more info, or can unleash everyone to test the list view, I'll let you know :). As always, any questions to the talkpage for the project or mine. Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:24, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I have a favor to ask of you

Someone at ANI[1] named Eddaido has complained about another user, but it seems that he is actually the problem. The more I see of his writing, the more I think that he doesn't realize how rude his edit summaries are overall behavior appears to be. He was ignored at Wikiquette [2] and I'm trying to assume good faith here. I'm guessing English isn't his first language, although he speaks it well. You know how some things sound different in type than in real life, etc., and I was wondering if you could sneak a peek in and determine if this someone who just needs a little help and would benefit from your special talents. He's been here a while, and maybe he is just now venturing into places more heavily contested. He's never been blocked. Then again, I could be completely clueless and wrong. Regardless, your opinion would be helpful. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:05, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

If I may butt in, he seems to be using a well-educated European world view and dialect, and seriously I can't be as nice and patient as he is on his worst day (even when I am trying). The edit summaries in the page history is a 'it takes two to tango' thing (i.e. neither editor was using the talkpage for the article, so they are both a party to the wrongdoing). His biggest error is being mentioned on the ANI page, anyone who is there is open to be witchburned, that's the sum-total of it, meanwhile the Occupy wall street Spanish elephant is the best thing on Televison, a real must-see. If wikipedia were an army, the primary strategy in battle would be to pull pins and throw grenades into the air, as close to vertical as possible. Penyulap ☏ 02:02, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not arguing against you, and it became a bit more obvious as it went along and I got a better feel for his English. I did say that Andy's threshold was a bit low and the other editor getting some guidance would be helpful. I wouldn't have chosen the path Andy took, but I would have felt a bit insulted by the tone. In some parts of the sates, for example, "dogging" might be considered a more aggressive word than in does in 'proper' English, per your observation. This is why I thought Pesky was perfect to give an outside view, as I completely trust her objectivity and handling of these cases. And no, no action needs to be taken against anyone there, except to maybe help some people. You have already done part of what I was asking Pesky to do. A polite note asking Andy to give him a little space might be helpful, and I will do that on Andy's talk page myself. Oh, and you can always butt into any conversation of mine when you have something constructive to add. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:24, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I personally get a lot of friction because my culture and perspective is outside the standard demographic, and I get a bit frustrated because if an American/British person who spoke perfect (pick a language) went to that (pick a language) wikipedia, they'd cop a lot as well. I don't ask people to AGF, and I do not ask for any luxury or favours, I just want what everyone else has, the right to edit the wikipedia, rather than be looked upon as the cause of the friction purely because of the mathematical ratio of the situation. Anyhow, I have gone and written myself into the personal lists of vendettas for whoever doesn't like me by quoting the dictionary at ANI, for whatever that is worth. Right is right and wrong is wrong and screw the lot of you who don't like it :P Penyulap ☏ 03:16, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I will take a look, though it might take me a couple of days to get a real "handle" on him / the situation. Some people, it takes me a long time to "learn them", kinda thing. btw, I almost fell off my chair at the reference to "dogging", lol! Ahem. I'm from the UK, where it can mean something completely different. ;P Pesky (talk) 03:19, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

English speakers by percentage within European Union countries, everything in grey is not EU, so percentages there aren't shown. The lightest shade of green (bottom right) means less than 20% can speak English. Penyulap ☏

I've answered at the ANI itself. The only examples I can pull from is some of our Belgian vendors (btw, I'm from the southern USA). When we talk to them they say ja, ja, ja, ja as I talk to them, (literally, yes yes yes yes) but it comes across as "yeah yeah yeah...", which in US english, sounds like you are being dismissive when you talk over someone with those words. It took a little to get used to, and it put us off at first, until we considered their faith in the matter. I think there are some similarities, culture is just different, but you don't know until you run across it. I didn't pick up on it at first here, but I tried to address it once I could tell that was the issue.

And yes Pesky, I knew that that was a UK expression as well but was reasonably sure that it didn't apply ;) We don't use "snog" in the USA either, but I absolutely love that word. And if you "knock someone up in the morning" here, you will have to answer to her daddy by evening. We are two countries separated by a common language. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 03:31, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Wow, Penyulap! That map is great – a real eye-opener! Pesky (talk) 14:10, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

• To follow up, thank you for following up. I'm learning. It isn't easy to tell that bias is an issue at first or third glance. It isn't like they have a button that says "I'm from Hungary/Greece/wherever", particularly when their edits don't make them look like English isn't their first language. A person's nationality doesn't enter my mind in disputes, but I guess I need to tune it a little faster, but not sure how except experience, to make sure bias isn't the issue. And as always, your opinions and feedback are greatly appreciated. And I would say the same to you Penyulap. The only reason I stalk ANI is to try to ratchet down the drama and the heavy handed nature of a few admins. Some days I do better than others. And yes, the map is quite interesting indeed. Thanks to you both. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:17, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Something else of interest is that English is by no means the only 'international language' other languages are used as a common language between nations. Arabic, French, Spanish, and my personal favourite Bahasa Indonesia come to mind. Bahasa Indonesia is spoken by only about one quarter of a billion people, it's not that big, but out of those people, only 10% speak it as a native language, the rest learnt it just so they could talk to each other. In Indonesia, you can only tease people who speak Indonesian without an accent.

I always find any person in real life who speaks with any kind of accent easier to talk to, and usually much more interesting as well, than a mono-linguist. They naturally stretch out their minds further in an effort to understand clearly what it is you are trying to say. I wouldn't be surprised if they are accused of cheating at the game of charades more often than any other group :)

Haha, lolz, someone is fighting to give Indo the recognition it deserves good luck to them, after all 119% of people know how twisted statistics can be, and how you list things represents a great deal. Penyulap ☏ 00:41, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

• From my own experience, I know that French is an international language, although not as much as years past. I'm well traveled within the USA, but not the world, having only been to a few other countries. I did get to do a business trip with other distributors from all over Europe, in Chişinău, Moldova, where everyone spoke different languages. They all communicated in English, except the Russians and a Canadian who would only speak French. Of the Moldavians that spoke a second language, the older ones spoke French (50+ years old now), the younger ones spoke English. I did notice that all the Europeans had a lot of misconceptions about Americans as well, so it was a good experience for everyone. And it was the first time I've ever been greeted at an airport by a contingent of soldiers with AK47s, which was a little disturbing. Most Americans don't have a lot of direct exposure with Europeans, excepting a lot of cultural exchange with the UK, and a little with Australia. After all, the US is a huge country, with only two neighbors, you have to cross a lot of water to see other countries. I live in a smaller state, North Carolina only has a population of 9.6 million, but originally from Texas, with a population of 25.6 million. It is pretty easy to live your whole life without leaving the state you were born in, and that is what most people do. Much of the bias isn't about looking down on anyone, it is from a lack of exposure. Ignorance, not malice. This doesn't justify "natural bias" but it does help explain it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:40, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Dennis, you've never been to Israel have you? Nor the Middle East for that matter? Young women walking the streets with Uzis are quite a sight.PumpkinSky talk 01:44, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of Texas, did a plane trip in early 2002 and when changing planes at DFW saw several VERY nervous young women in the National Guard wearing full fatigues and with machine guns in that rest position (finger on the little rest next to the trigger) next to each checkpoint (DFW laid out so you walk by all the metal detectors as you move from one plane to another. (In contrast, the Guard guys in Montana airports had the guns merely slung over their backs and were usually sitting around somewhere shooting the breeze with people) Does this make Texas possessed with a Beirut mentality? Montanabw^(talk) 23:01, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

I haven't seen troops at the airport in a long time. DFW is one of the largest airports in the US, so it would have a higher profile military presence in 2002, as 9/11 was still quite fresh on everyone's mind. But as I'm not sure what a "Beirut mentality" is exactly, so I couldn't speak to that. I've always said that they should just issue every passenger a knife or club. Every "bad guy" caught since 9/11 hasn't been caught by the TSA, they've been stopped by the passengers, showing how totally worthless the TSA is with all their baby and granny groping. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:23, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, gotta love the TSA. A child who was the daughter of one of my (grown) kiddo's friends got groped at an airport - right after learning about "Stranger danger" and freaked. see here. Montanabw^(talk) 02:06, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks you for the lovely bowl of strawberries Pesky. Some days such kind thoughts are very much needed and today is such a day. Your page reminds me of the funny little dog rescued about a year and a half ago. I wanted a big dog, German Shepherd or Border Collie but a little starving Shih Tzu needed a home, and so home she came . What a lovely little dog she has shown herself to be with a hilarious sense of humour, and a big heart.(olive (talk) 13:22, 5 May 2012 (UTC))

Shih Tzu's are adorable. One of my favourite breeds. What a nice story. :) ^OohBunnies! Leave a message 14:44, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know it but yes they are. Strong and tough too. Lucy will take on any size dog. She's had to learn to be kind to those less assertive than she is.: ∑:O)(olive (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2012 (UTC))

They are fun – and a great deal more intelligent than a lot of people give them credit for! Several I;ve been acquainted with are very good at "hunt the treat" (hidden inside shoe, under object, etc.) Wouldn't surprise me if they made good drug-sniffer dogs (for use in small spaces, perhaps?) Pesky (talk) 21:11, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Their intelligence is not the same as in larger breeds like a German Shepherd. Lucy learns in one or two tries then gauges whether she's interested in the thing learnt. If she gets a laugh out of something she does... she repeats it over and over loving the laughter. Anyway, I shouldn't get started on dogs. Hope you're feeling better and better Pesky. Best heal-up-fast wishes.(olive (talk) 02:19, 6 May 2012 (UTC))

Now that's intelligence, though! Work out if you actually like the new trick, rather than just performing it for the sake of it, lol! I'm healing up nicely, thanks; just so frustrated that now we have the chainsaw working, I'm not allowed to wield it! (Too much torque on the neck, sigh.) There's a great feeling of power, holding a revving chainsaw ;P So I'm restricted to playing with the big loppers, and the shears, and unrisky stuff like that. Pesky (talk) 06:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC)