Talk:Marcia Torres

Improving the article

Is anyone willing to take a look at an article I am working on?[1] about a trans woman from Chile. It is especially difficult because 1) all the sources have to be translated, thus words that might be acceptable in Spanish, might not be culturally accepted in English. (I avoided clearly derogatory terms in use at the time, but am not really sure on some of the others.); 2) the period of time is in the early years of defining gender and sexuality, so terms have significantly changed; and 3) I felt that I needed to describe the legal situation at the time to give context. (Not sure whether there is too much off-topic discussion and should be added to the country specific article or whether it is on-balance to give a frame of reference to this article). Any help you can give would be appreciated before I take it to mainspace. Thanks! SusunW (talk) 22:23, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

In reponse to your request at WT:LGBT#Help?, here are a couple of points for starters:

• please move your in-line comments from the article, to a new section on this Talk page (e.g., "[I purposely used "he" ...", and other similar ones, should be moved here).
• If this were in Draft namespace, it would be easier for others to help you. Do you know how to move it there, or would you like me to do so for you?

I can help with the Spanish as well, if you have specific questions.

P.S. I copied your message from WT:LGBT here, for convenience; hope that's okay. Feel free to revert if not. Mathglot (talk) 23:55, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Mathglot I am not sure why accessing at Draft namespace would make it any easier, but if you think it would, feel free to move it there. I have no intention of submitting it for review at AFC. I also don't understand why comments about specific sentences in the text would be easier to follow if placed here away from those sentences, forcing someone to search for what I am talking about. I didn't have problems translating the Spanish, but terminology which is used is different than in English speaking countries and framed in the time period as indicated above, so is dated. SusunW (talk) 00:32, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

If you don’t feel that would be helpful, there’s no need either to move the article to draft, or to move the comments here from out of the article. Feel free to ping me if you want a reply, or raise a new section with a question and just add {{Help me}} to the message and someone will come by to answer your question. Cordially, Mathglot (talk) 01:32, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts, but I need specific help from the LGBT project on terminology, as I outlined in my initial question. There is no question of whether the sources are RS, whether there is adequate coverage to meet GNG, or notability that would require AfC review. Having worked on numerous GAs, I know that articles with foreign sources sit for months (last one over 9) without being reviewed. If you can answer any of the specific questions, that would be very helpful. SusunW (talk) 03:14, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes I can answer specific questions on LGBT terminology in Spanish or English. Please post your questions, and {{ping}} me.

As far as Notability, I'll look at that separately and let you know what I think. I'm just one person, of course, and others may differ in their assessment. Just so you know, though, there is no reason to worry about sources that happen to be in Spanish as they are equally as good as English sources for establishing Notability . When it comes to Verifiability, the situation is slightly different, but you needn't worry about that now, if what you are concerned about is notability. Mathglot (talk) 05:05, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I haven't checked all the sources, yet, but I don't need to. There are enough significant, reliable, independent sources to establish notability, as evidenced by the sources "La Tercera", "Revista Latinoamericana", and the obit in "La Nación" for starters. This article would easily survive an WP:Afd, if anyone were foolish enough to bring it there. Mathglot (talk) 05:31, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

LOL, I had no doubt Mathglot. I never write anything I cannot fully source. As I usually write about marginalized people (often non-English speakers), I make sure any article is fully sourced and never put anything in it that I cannot directly tie to a reference. Thanks for going through it. I see that you opted for the simple feminine pronoun. That works for me, just wanted other input. Do you think drag performer should be used instead of transvestite? Do you think that there is too much explanation of the legal situation in the country? SusunW (talk) 13:20, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks FULBERT appreciate the help. I have two possible sources of images but only one can be uploaded as fair use, since I have no author or original publication details. I can use one of the three images on this. I prefer the vedette image (she's holding the paper?) or this one. Do you have a preference? SusunW (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

As the major concerns have been addressed, I'm going to move it to mainspace. Thank you both for your help! SusunW (talk) 18:41, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Clarification needed

User:SusunW, I've been looking at this sentence, but I just can't understand what you're trying to say. Did you translate this from Spanish?

In the early part of the dictatorship, the regime and the press characterized sex reassignment surgery as a means of regulating public spaces, since many LGBT people were engaged in sex work and nightlife entertainment, which in effect would allow people to move from an illegal identity to a legal one.

Can you quote the original Spanish, please? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 09:44, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Mathglot As cited in the article it is on page 109 of Carvajal: "En tercer lugar la cobertura periodística de Marcia Alejandra, permite advertir que la vida de las mujeres trans estaba atravesada por las formas de regulación del espacio público y por el control del comercio sexual y nocturno, esto es, de la prostitución y de otros trabajos, como el de vedette, que solían tener lugar en los mismos espacios físicos –clubes, cabarets y boîtes–. Como ha señalado Namaste (2004; 2009), la regulación sexo-genérica debe ser conectada con otras dimensiones, como el trabajo, la clase y el control del espacio público, para ser comprendida en toda su complejidad. Muchas mujeres trans tenían –y continúan teniendo– trabajos ligados al mercado noctur-no, por lo que los decretos y códigos penales utilizados por las fuerzas policiales rigen sustancialmente su cotidianeidad. En efecto, este aspecto va a contribuir a que la historia de la transición de Marcia Alejandra quede inscrita como el paso de la legalidad a la ilegalidad de una identidad, encabalgando este discurso con consignas ideológicas más amplias, en relación al quiebre entre el supuesto caos de la Unidad Popular y el orden dictatorial."

Basically, the regime supported gender corrections if they took people out of illegal activities (i.e. ones associated with homosexuals) and made them able to act in legal ways (form families, etc.) SusunW (talk) 15:14, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Ditto in this case:

Sensationalized media stories argued whether Torres was a homosexual, discussing whether or not, that as she had never felt like a man, she could have been attracted to someone of the same sex.

Please tell me what you meant to say here in your native language (Spanish, I presume?). Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 10:11, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Mathglot As cited in the article it is on page 116 of Carvajal (who says there are over 150 news articles in the same vein): "...En la nota de la revista Vea trabajaba activamente la distinción entre lo que hoy entendemos como transexualidad y homosexualidad, para afirmarla o para negarla. El psiquiatra Manuel Godoy afirmaba que la intervención quirúrgica se hacía para “desmasculinizar a quien ya vivía como mujer”, que se trata de una “actitud genuina y consistente y no de una inclinación transitoria”, y que Marcia Alejandra no podía ser concebida como un homosexual, pues los homosexuales “se sienten hombres y sienten preferencias por el mismo sexo. Alberto Arturo To-rres nunca se sintió hombre, ni siquiera en su más tierna infancia; se sentía una mujer y como tal era atraída hacia el sexo opuesto” (Evans, 1974:15). En cambio otro psiquiatra, Jorge Sepúlveda, vuelve a traer la categoría homosexual para refe-rirse al caso de Marcia Alejandra: “en el caso chileno de reciente publicidad se ha practicado simplemente una corrección quirúrgica sobre los genitales externos de un individuo, que combina su condición de homosexual con algunas anomalías ex ..."

Maybe an easier way to say it is "Sensationalized media stories argued whether Torres was a homosexual. Some articles rationalized that if she never thought she was a man, she was never attracted to someone of the same sex." (I omitted the counter argument that the surgical modification of her body, did not make her a woman, so she was a homosexual; because it is a dated opinion which has changed over time.) Is this better?

I also see that you have restructured the article, which is fine, but I note that when you moved this sentence "Torres underwent Sexual reassignment surgery in Santiago in March 1973." you broke the citation and created a one sentence paragraph, which is not usually done in English.[2] Offsetting this particular sentence makes the article about the procedure and not about her life, of which this was only one event, albeit a pivotal one. SusunW (talk) 15:08, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Regarding one-sentence paragraph: you're quite right, it is rarely done in English. This was on purpose, following the reorg to separate "Career" aspects, from "Transition" aspects, resulting (I hope) in an article that is clearer, and easier to read. In so doing, however, this left the "Career" section with a paragraph break between the return to Antofagasta in 1970, and starring in Santiago in 1975. Even though the section is about her career, you can't leave her transition completely unspoken there, as it likely affected her career. So, I added the brief sentence you see there, noting her transition. Saying more than one sentence would be inappropriate here, because there is an entire section about her transition elsewhere. Saying nothing about it, seems wrong as well, as does simply appending the sentence to the previous paragraph, which would be like saying, "In 1970, she returned to Antofagasta, and by the way, she had SRS in 1973." Too abrupt, too awkward, not connected. This seems manifestly one of those cases, where a one-sentence paragraph is appropriate: nothing is too little, more is too much, attaching it seems wrong. More on your other points, later. Mathglot (talk) 01:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

We disagree, but clearly I'm not gonna fight about it, or revert you. Life is full of petty disagreements and that's what makes the world interesting. ;) You do still need, however, to replace the reference citation you removed/broke, as it is an uncited sentence. SusunW (talk) 02:48, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Rare, but not unheard of. If you feel strongly about this, go ahead and remove the paragraph break. But whatever solution you pick, it should make sense in the context of the section, and I don't quite see how you can just tack such an earth-shattering statement about a non-career move onto a paragraph about career. Another solution, would be to remove the sentence-paragraph entirely; but that would leave the reader jumping back and forth between "Career" and "Transition" to try and figure out what the timeline was. That would be less helpful to the reader, imho. Mathglot (talk) 18:01, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Mathglot, see what you think of the way it is worded now. If you don't like it revert it. SusunW (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

@SusunW:, I think that's an acceptable compromise. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 11:41, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Giménez 2015

We might want to consider doubling-up on citations on article content where only a single citation is present, and it references Giménez-2015. The reason is, they don't seem to have done any fact-checking. The error in describing Christine Jorgensen as Danish has no effect on Marcia Torres, but it is a red flag about the level of fact-checking performed by the author, and the magazine. It might not be considered a reliable source, if put to the test. Any assertions having only Giménez as a citation, should be carefully checked, and an additional citation added whenever possible.

Not an issue, as it is clearly covered in Carvajal as well. Added citations. SusunW (talk) 02:46, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Good; that's exactly what was needed. Mathglot (talk) 16:43, 4 June 2019 (UTC)