User talk:Stephen2nd/Disestablishments of WWI

concept

I'm not really clear on what you want to do here for Austria, Russia and Turkey — list all the provinces, as well as the empires? Some of the provinces listed (e.g. Tyrol, Salzburg) still exist. —Tamfang (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Generally, all state/areas within each empire, with arms/maps/flags that were disestablished in 1917/1918 and 1922-1924. These provinences changed arms and flags on these dates.Stephen2nd (talk) 11:27, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

NB: I've got very limited access to WiFi. I will try to get a few hours next week if possible.

arms

The shield shown for the Duchy of Saxe-Altenburg looks like civic arms, not dynastic arms. —Tamfang (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll double check all arms/flags &c in W/commons next week, and tidy up the overall page image &c.Stephen2nd (talk)

miscellany

Why is Montenegro listed under German Empire? —Tamfang (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

There are 3 or 4 other countries (outside of Germany) ruled by these "rulers", they will either have to be inserted in this section, or in an extension at the end of this section, possibly with German colonies. I will try and sort this out next week if possible. Stephen2nd (talk) 11:36, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

deprivation of titles

In 1917, after the fall of the Tsar Nicholas II,

What did that have to do with it?

all princes of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha were deprived of their titles, with the exception of George V ....

Eh? The duke of SCG disinherited all of his kin except George?

I guess you're referring to George's order that British subjects with German titles choose between Germany and Britain, whereupon they dropped their German titles including George. (This affected some princes of Battenberg and Teck, as well as SCG.)

He also decreed (apparently for the first time) exactly who was entitled to the styles of HRH Prince/ss of the UK: children of a monarch or of sons of a monarch. (Or of the eldest son of a duke of Cornwall? I forget.) Everyone in your list of "royal families excluded in 1917" was within that group, and so retained their British titles. —Tamfang (talk) 17:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm also puzzled by the statements that the Coburgs were booted out of the BRF in 1893 and again in 1917! —Tamfang (talk) 03:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I am working offline on most of your queries. The overall theme of my current research is now "dynastic German marriages in Britain and Russia pre-1918". Indeed S-CG were booted out in 1893, which seemingly was not enacted until 1917, after the successions of Ed VII & Geo V. I will try to upload my new research & edits on Sunday' Stephen2nd (talk) 12:23, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

What do you have on what happened in 1893 other than a brief note in Neubecker (that could be a mistranslation)? Too bad I don't read German nor have a copy of the original. —Tamfang (talk) 21:31, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

It is not misleading or a mistranslation. The S-CG princes were excluded from the BRF in 1893. Quote: "These S-CG princes in 1893, had been accused of contriving to impose themselves as hereditary kings upon Great Britain, Portugal, Bulgaria and Belgium". ((Lines of Succession. Louda & Maclagan. 1981. ISBN 085613-276-4, p 202)). Based on these two reputable Quotes, I've compiled some of the most obvious reasons &/or excuses, why this may have happened. Good, bad or indifferent, I think I am correct in my assumptions. See here User:Stephen2nd/sandbox, I'll ref it up on the relevant points, after you have read it, and pointed out any blaring mistakes or misconceptions that I have made. I am working (offline) on creating Wikitables to accompany this text, and theme, Stephen2nd (talk) 18:05, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

1. Wikitable: Victoria’s 9 children – bred with German Houses (part done)
2. Wikitable: George V 1917 list – Ditto (done, but without breeding notes)
3. Wikitable: Nicholas (I) children – Ditto (part done)
4. Wikitable: Nicholas II 1918 list – Ditto (done, but without breeding notes)
5. Wikitable: German Empire 1918 – (done, but without breeding notes)
6. Wikitable: Kingdoms & Empires list – Ditto

My Louda Quote was incorrect, this was from my notes researching successions by deaths. It is relevant, but not a definitive reference to the S-CG statement (sorry, my mistake).

If such statements were incorrect, mistranslation, or untrue, it would have been amended. The sources are impeccable, German General Roll of Arms, Academy of Heraldry, and J.P. Brooke-Little access to the College of Arms. Published 1977, 1988, and 1997, and distributed internationally for 35 years, with no amendments or corrections to these texts. NB: See also (p.160) & (p.164) The high esteem - in Germany - the crucial point - the Garter. "The arms borne by European sovereigns such as Duke Bernhard presented a problem for English heraldic officials. They created hierarchical crowns unknown on the Continent, and the inherited helmets above these. The helmets are arranged in the set “jumping” order of rank; i.e. 5, 3, 1, 2, 4, 6."

I have no idea what the first half of this paragraph is about, or what you want me to see on Neubecker p.160. Neubecker p.164 says, as I understand it, that English heralds (not very surprisingly) made a mess of foreign conventions when they displayed the arms of foreign knights of the Garter; what's this relevant to? —Tamfang (talk) 21:50, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I believe both these statements are 100% correct based on lots of prior research.

This may be a plausible theory! Queen Victoria, known as grandmother of Europe, produced 136 children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, during her lifetime. Victoria was in mourning after the death of her husband, Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha in 1861. From 1861 to her death in 1901, Victoria also mourned the deaths of 4 of her children, and 10 of her grandchildren. After the deaths of her husband (1861), and 8 grandchildren (1866-1889), and a daughter Princess Alice (1878), her son Leopold (1884), then Alice’s husband Louis IV (1892), then her grandson Albert Duke of Clarence (1892) who was second in line to the throne, princes of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha were excluded from the British royal family in 1893.

Each of these deaths represented significant changes in European and British successions, and are worthy of further research in search of the truth, which by their significant authority at those times, they seldom allowed to be known! The 1892 death of Prince Albert, second in line to the British throne after Prince Edward, a second child of Victoria, occurred when the Emperor Wilhelm II, the first son of Victoria’s first child Princess Victoria, finally produced his first daughter, also named Victoria, in 1892. Already subject of a British Oath of Allegiance, when Wilhelm became Emperor in 1888, Prime Minister Salisbury stated, “We are a part of a community of Europe and we must do our duty as such.” He then enacted procedures to create an Official Secrets Act 1889. Stephen2nd (talk) 18:41, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

My copy of Louda & Maclagan ("Reprinted 1984") says, By a series of felicitous marriages the third and most junior of these principalities [i.e. SCG] had contrived to supply kings to Great Britain, Portugal, Bulgaria and Belgium – not quite a ringing denunciation of a sinister conspiracy, no hint of expulsion, and no overt mention of 1893.

(By the way, since the text of that book was apparently written by Maclagan alone, I don't like to cite the text as "Louda"!)

Note that all children of Victoria & Albert (and their sons) (and no other members of the BRF, unless we count Leopold I of Belgium who died in 1865) were princes of SCG; their mass expulsion from the BRF, during Victoria's reign, would be startling. That's one reason for wanting more support than one mysterious sentence in a translation of a foreign book.

In Fox-Davies The Art of Heraldry, plate LXVI is an engraving of "the arms of King Edward VII. and Queen Alexandra, as borne when Prince and Princess of Wales." His shield has an inescutcheon of Saxony; if ties with SCG were severed in 1893, one might expect the inescutcheon to be dropped then, in which case the caption should say "until 1893". —Tamfang (talk) 21:50, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

1893

Aha! I may have found what's at the root of all this 1893 jazz.

“ When he [Alfred duke of Edinburgh] became Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha [in 1893], he surrendered his British allowance of £15,000 a year and his seats in the House of Lords and the Privy Council .... ”

—Tamfang (talk) 03:07, 22 October 2012 (UTC)