User talk:Sideshow Bob/Archive1

Welcome!

Welcome!

Hello, Sideshow Bob, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! --PaxEquilibrium 15:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Warning

Thank you for experimenting with the page Portal:Montenegro/Did you know on Wikipedia. Your test worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you may want to do. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. PaxEquilibrium 12:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove content from Wikipedia, as you did to Serbs of Montenegro. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. PaxEquilibrium 12:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed content from Movement for Changes. Please be careful not to remove content from Wikipedia without a valid reason, which you should specify in the edit summary or on the article's talk page. Take a look at our welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. PaxEquilibrium 12:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits, such as those you made to Mirko Petrović Njegoš, are considered vandalism. If you continue in this manner you may be blocked from editing without further warning. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the work of others. Thank you. --PaxEquilibrium 12:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, as you did to Oj, svijetla majska zoro, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. PaxEquilibrium 12:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

This is the only warning you will receive.
Your recent vandalism to Demographic history of Montenegro will not be tolerated. The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. PaxEquilibrium 12:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I have replied at Talk:Mirko Petrović Njegoš.

Why do support the independence of Montenegro when its not jeopardized? --PaxEquilibrium 14:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I changed it,makes more sense now,doesn't it? Sideshow Bob 02:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Dobro ni dosha!

Just a short hello from me. I am glad the number of Montenegrins is slowly increasing on Wikipedia. Pax is a bit possessive about history texts, and very biased in my opinion. He is a bit of a bully to the new members as well ;-) Drop me a line if you have problems or need help on a particular topic. Regards, Momisan 12:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

CG Wiki

I've started up a CG Wiki at cgwiki.elwiki.com (it'll become a seperate website once it gets 10 articles, and it's for free). If you would like, you can join it (you can become a bureaucrat and a SysOp), though I will need extreeeeeeme heeeeeeeeelp!!!!!!!. And, it's written in the Montenegrin language as intended. Think about it and if yes, come join and help out. Please, just do follow the rules of the Montenegrin language on the wiki when contributing. Bye. --Crna Gora 04:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

football player information

Hello, just wondering where you getting information for the footballers you have been recently updating? I would like to start creating some stub articles and having basic player biographies should be enough for a start. Thanks :) // Laughing Man 06:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, let me know if you come across a good reference site for player bios as I've been using club pages as well random football 'database' sites, but most are either inaccurate or outdated -- ie, "Serbia & Montenegro" which is not very helpful.  :) // Laughing Man 23:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Why?

No, don't Kraj it. I promise I'll help the build up of the Montenegrin wikipedia. Please don't close it. I'm registering over there. I know I'll never be able to return CrnaGora, but there's still enough of us to manage some sort of a Wikipedia over there. --PaxEquilibrium 17:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Tag on bokelji?

Why a tag on the Bokelji article? What are the reasons?

We're working on that mess right now, but my thinkings're on deletion. --PaxEquilibrium 23:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, Bokelji were and are Serbs, the Montenegrin Orthodox Church is little or none at all active in the Bay (which is the HQ of the Serbian Orthodox Church's activity and the Serbian institutions in Montenegro). Budva indeed is historically a part of Boka, and as a the Gulf is considered to be more of a historical entity, its residents still consider it (although it aint geographically, of course). --PaxEquilibrium 23:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that Montenegrins who are adherents of the SOC are automatically Serbs? Budva is not a part of Boka, that is a commonly known fact to anyone familiar with the issue. Budva has been somewhat connected with the Bay, but not more than it has been connected to the old towns of Bar and Ulcinj. And trust me, people of Budva don't feel like Bokelji :). Another thing, there is a certain number of MOC adherents in Kotor and Tivat, and also Montenegrins who "belong" to SOC, or atheists. So, you can not call the Orthodox majority "Orthodox Serbs", because I know, and you know that is far from true. Not to mention that people indigenous to the region are overwhelmingly Catholics(Croats), who are a minority nowadays, and Serbs are partially people who moved from Hercegovina to Herceg Novi, so they do not belong to Bokelji ethnic group. I know there is a significant Serb presence in the Bay, but that doesn't make all of its Orthodox citizens Serbs. Sideshow Bob 01:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

1. Orthodox Serb (or Serbian Orthodox) not = Serb
2. A very large number of inhabitants of Kosovo do not feel as Serbians - but they are. The bocan associations deal with the Budva municipality too (but the main point is that the Budva is historically Bocan)
3. I'm redirecting the whole damn article to Boka kotorska. --PaxEquilibrium 16:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Žarko Čabarkapa

Do you have a source where he states he will most likely play for Montenegro? The entire "possible players" section is very speculative at best, but the players you listed who born in Montenegro are possibilities, but I think you should provide a source for Žarko Čabarkapa to clear any confusion to readers of the article. // Laughing Man 22:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I have read his interview to "Vijesti" where he said that.In the same newspaper I have read that Pavlovic said he wants to play for Serbia.I'll try searching their archive for the link. Cheers! Sideshow Bob 22:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey

I just wanted to be in the middle. Such a controversial issue was bound to be heated - and I was right - it indeed was. By voting neutral, I'm not leaning to either side - and thus, I'm no ones' "enemy". You shouldn't be sorry. The plan for a Montenegrin Wikipedia was my original idea, but CrnaGora always rushed for, and I always knew that it would fail, because it's far too early. In fact, I still think it's early to get enough support for it. --PaxEquilibrium 13:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Тја

Његош се саде засигурно у гробу преврће!

Please remain calm & civil. --PaxEquilibrium 00:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I am being as calm as possible, even though I get frustrated by false interpretations of history. Intentional or not, it is not my judgement...

"Чините што знате, а не знате што чините." Sideshow Bob 00:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Well there are discussions for there. Please present calmly what you consider as a "false interpretation of history". --PaxEquilibrium 13:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The books

Do you have sources that they sing in Montenegrin? (Serbian is simply logical - for example if there was a Serbian-singing band in Croatia, then we could've written "Serbian", rather than "Croatian"). But if there are no sources... --PaxEquilibrium 23:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who has ever watched their TV shows or listened to a radio show(I'm a big fan myself:) knows that they declared themselves speakers of Montenegrin multiple times. They were/are also supporters of LSCG, and harsh critics of SOC, especialy Metropolitan Amfilohije,who is a frequent target of their sarcasm. Their political views are decisive and publicly expressed continuously. Now, the problem is that they are not presented on the Internet at all, besides a couple of news about their album,its promotions,etc. So, I am absolutely sure about their language orientation, but I don't see how I can substantiate it with evidence from Internet. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 00:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, this has nothing to do with politics (n)or religion. Fact resides in the simple controversy of the Montenegrin language (and due to that controversy, I insist you to give some arguments). A lot of people in Montenegro are Liberals and hate Serbia or are even subjects of the MOC - but they do not give up their own cultural heritage and say they speak the Serbian language. You'll have to bring up harder arguments. --PaxEquilibrium 14:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hate Serbia eh? Why are Montenegrins who recognise their own national identity, always being accused of "Serbophobia" or so called "anti-Serbdom"? Montenegrin identity is not based on the hatred towards the Serbs, except for some extremists who go too far( such as Jevrem Brkovic). Anyway, as far as TBOK is concerned, they are surely speakers of Montenegrin language, and the only thing I can do about it is to search my archive and point out the episodes in which they mention it. Since I don't have enough time to waste doing that, I had put a compromise solution, Serbian/Montenegrin, and did not mention their political affiliation anywhere in the article. Sideshow Bob 20:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

CrnaGora has added the section while I was working on the article, so I won't be deleting it now, even though I didn't intend to mention it. I have just edited the section a lil' bit, making it somewhat more accurate. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 23:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Cool.

P.S. Well yeah, I was referring to the likes of Jevrem. Cheers, man. --PaxEquilibrium 23:25, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Translation

Thank you for the translation - I knew he was attacking me, but he just wouldn't admit it. Now I have proof of more attacks from him. (As a trivial side note, this is my first edit since my block ended!). —KingIvan 06:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I noticed your message on Ivan's page and based on that you should know that wikipedia is no place for enhancing conflicts. What is the point of your observation of Emir's message, to support Ivan or to start a new destructive conflict between two users? Isn't it obvious that this behaviour is only pouring more oil on the fire. You have been recommended to stop. Regards Ancient Land of Bosoni

His point was to provide me with a translation of one of the messages that started the whole conflict. Also, be advised that I consider the conflict over, so please don't start a new one. —KingIvan 05:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. I also believe that no one should get away with personal attacks by simply writing them in another language. That behaviour is not less wrong if the other person can't understand the message. I suggest that this conflict ends, and that you don't involve me in it. Sideshow Bob 23:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Romania

Please see your user page (places in Romania you visited).

Cheers. --PaxEquilibrium 21:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I just forgot to put in a town, I only visited it shortly. But, thanks anyway. Cheers! ;) Sideshow Bob 01:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Re:

I fully agree with your idea. --Crna Gora 01:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Bob

Don't you find it shocking that there is no editor from Montenegro except User:Milant (and partially me)? --PaxEquilibrium 22:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I (myself of Montenegrin descent) live in ex Yu (or better said, at least in Europe :) and go there at times (a branch of my family lives in Cetinje). --PaxEquilibrium 12:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Multiple pages listed for speedy deletion

I just want to let you know that the following pages have been listed for speedy deletion under criterion A7, as they do not assert the importance or significance of their subject.

1. FK Igalo
2. OFK Bar
3. FK Bijela
4. FK Tekstilac
5. Fk Iskra
6. FK Orjen
7. FK Cetinje
8. FK Gorštak
9. FK Grafičar
10. FK Drezga
11. FK Ribnica

If you wish to contest the speedy deletion, you may place the tag {{hangon}} on the pages, and then explain why the page should be kept on their talk pages. I hope you have a good day. Kyra_~(talk) 22:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

These articles have just been created, I am trying to find more information about them, which is not an easy thing to do in this case. I would highly appreciate you not sabotaging my efforts. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 22:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I assure you, I am not trying to sabotage your efforts; the articles in their current form simply fall into the criteria for speedy deletion under criterion A7, which reads "Unremarkable people, groups, companies and web content. An article about a real person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content that does not assert the importance or significance of its subject. If the assertion is likely to be controversial or there has been a previous AfD, the article should be nominated for AfD instead." The relevant guideline this criterion deals with is Wikipedia:Notability. If you believe that the articles should be kept, I would advise placing {{hangon}} onto the article and explaining why you believe the article should be kept on their talk pages. I hope you have a most wonderful day. Kyra_~(talk) 23:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

You know what, I have no intent on writing the same thing on 11 talk pages, and having discussions on all of them. Their notability is obvious; if we have an article on the league they are competing in, what makes the articles on the teams participating in that league less significant? I realise that current stubs do not represent those clubs' significance, but you obviously have no intent on leaving time for their improvement. So go ahead and delete them if necessary, I could care less. Nothing personal. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 01:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I was not aware that the teams operated on the pro level. Most of the tags have been removed by an admin, and I cleaned up the rest. As such, they are no longer tagged. Had I known, I would not have tagged them, although with my limited knowledge of soccer, I just called it like I saw it at the time; this was an error on my part, but luckily the pages were not deleted. Again, I am deeply sorry for any trouble I may have caused you, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask and I will do my best to assist you. I hope you have a good day, and happy editing. Kyra_~(talk) 09:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No hard feelings, I highly doubt that even the experts on soccer would know anything about Montenegrin Third League. :) No need for apologies, thank you for understanding. I hope you have a nice day, too. Sideshow Bob 18:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a nice chat

Mate, if you are like me, you must be tired by now from all these "pests" illiciting information, probing, pestering, insulting, fuelling conflict and ultimately spending our precious energy the wrong way :-) so, just a little greetings and a tap on the back from me. Keep up the good work! Cheers. Momisan 05:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

First sane message in a long time :) Perhaps you, CG, Outlook and me should somehow coordinate our work, get to know each other's interests etc. What do you think? Regards, Momisan 23:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Good start. Those were the articles, actually pretty much all the articles about Montenegrin history and culture fall into the same category, that were like a slap in the face when I saw them for the first time. The problem with me is the time, off course, so I made a decision to concentrate only on a few (cuisine, language, culture). I initially did a few edits on history articles you mentioned, however, found discussions on it too time consuming, as you might imagine. It is on the TODO list, though, perhaps when our group becomes larger, or more organised, we can tackle it with more success. Momisan 23:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Re:WP Montenegro

Your request has been fulfilled. The category's name is Category:Montenegro articles needing immediate attention. May I ask, what articles were you and Momisan thinking to do add to this category? --Crna Gora 01:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I did misunderstand you. As a result, I did create the new template upon reading your conversation with Momisan. :D --Crna Gora 01:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Tivat or Kotor

I don't understand; so where do ya live? In Kotor or in Tivat? --PaxEquilibrium 12:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Just the Bocca? Have you ever been abroad? --PaxEquilibrium 20:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

---

The thing you claim is very strange, because as far as I recall you come from the United States of America. :) I cannot remember the exact place; I believe it's something in Virginia, like Richmond or something... :D --PaxEquilibrium 23:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, man; there is Privacy policy. You don't have to tell me anything. :-) Not to hide the truth, I was a little suspecting you were not quite honest on that one, but never mind.

I'm (was) just wondered why/how on earth you moved to the US (it's a huge privilege). --PaxEquilibrium 00:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Happy to you too. Regards. --PaxEquilibrium 00:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope, not if you don't count the Balkans :) There were only insignificant trips to various European countries and outside only Canada and Morocco (oh, and 15 minutes in America!). :D --PaxEquilibrium 22:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I want to stand aside until the Linguistic Convention and the Montenegrin state officially recognize/accept/official it, so I wanted to stay in the middle.

But what Ego and his own has being doing really made me horrified. I probably "went off" too much (I was a little annoyed); so that might even pushed me away some too far (note that I am the very first conceiver of the idea of a Montenegrin Wikipedia). It was really bad what he did, and what many of his friends have been doing.

Like I said before; at Fall this year a full-scale functional Montenegrin language Wikipedia will be opened. That will give enough time to the linguists, and that's the time scheduled for the bringing of the Montenegrin constitution - there will be no need to oppose such a project then (even if people like Ego and his own do Milo Djukanovic-like things ;). Cheers! --PaxEquilibrium 00:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Montenegrin language controversy at the Parliament!

Did You watch the Assembly's session yesterday? The main subject of the discussion was whether a Montenegrin language existed. The ruling coalition (DPS and SDP) suggested that an act of recognition of a language known as "Montenegrin language" be recognized as a spoken (minority) language in the Republic of Montenegro; which would perhaps be introduced into the Constitution (the original biased nationalist proposal of Milo Djukanovic to put the Montenegrin language as the sole official of the Republic of Montenegro was immediately dropped, as it was rendered in contradiction to various International Laws and essentially, illegal). As a response to Serbian remarks (read below), a DPS MP asked "Why was then Gorski Vijenac translated to Gorski Venac in 1927?" (which actually a Serbo-Croatian interdialect transliteration) In the end, President Vujanovic said that the largest argument lies in calling the language according to the state - all other ex Yugoslav countries did it (noted Bosnian as an example) and that there's no reason that Montenegro be an exception (he got hot critics from Montenegrin linguists for trying to mettle politics into linguistics).

The Serbian MPs vigorously opposed it in a most extreme nationalist way, claiming that's the Montenegrin language is a (stupid) fabrication with the sole purpose to alienate Montenegro from the other Serbian-speaking places so that Milo's fascistoids will have a firmer grip over Montenegrin, hidden through Montenegrin patriotism and ultra-nationalism. It threatened the government to stop the racist de-serbianization of Montenegro initiated by changing the Montenegrin tri-color flag and continued through state-controlled propaganda.

The opposition refused, in a less extreme way, bringing up a sensible argument: in 2003 more than 63% (400,000) of inhabitants of Montenegro declared their native language to be Serbian. They also reminded the whole Assembly that back then the whole Montenegrin government, including the President, hailed the people to declare their native language "Montenegrin" as a national interest and that during and before the census there was a progressive campaign in plans to make the majority of the population declare Montenegrin language as their native (with even occasional threats if not declared) - while options to declare Serbian weren't even presented. They remind that this was the greatest defeat of the DPS (throughout history DPS every single time takes everything deep under its control and every single time it wins a very tight victory [it's only strong in Cetinje, and no where else]), as even despite all this, barely 22% of the population declared the "Montenegrin language" as their native. They also reminded that the German is the official language of Austria.

The Liberal and Democrat opposition brought to the matter and asked why is Milo Djukanovic's original proposal that "Bosnian, Montenegrin, Croatian and Serbian" be rendered official not mentioned. They say that the only option is to either to keep Serbian as the only official, or declare all these (adding to it Albanian). --PaxEquilibrium 13:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

A CANU (Montenegrin Academy of Sciences and Arts) member said that politics should never mettle into linguistics, nor anything that does not concern politicians, as it would only lead to breeding new conflicts and distortions of truth, often non-related to real facts (as present across former Yugoslavia). He said that the government should leave it to the highest Montenegrin/Serbian and other legitimate linguists in Montenegro to decide the whole matter together with the highest Serbian linguists in the globe who should also be present to make a just conclusion/compromise and not an act from political need.

He also reminded that American language was for a short time the official language of the USA and it was even (to be) taught in schools. It was later dropped as the conclusion was it was a "not needed red herring". He also said that there were movements (and some people even today support it) to make an Austrian language; and that it was after WWII. He's convinced that the Montenegrin language will pass through similar things, but warned that these're the Balkans and that here is anything possible ("Tomorrow Croatian language might be official" he said). I think that that which he's claiming is not quite presenting the reality, as the idea of a "Montenegrin language" did not come as an outrageous proposal that was pretty quickly dismissed - and also, the Montenegrin language ideology is slowly, but steadily growing in popularity (unlike the other examples). --PaxEquilibrium 16:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The Democratic Party of Socialists just proposed that the Montenegrin language be states as the (sole) official language. It was supported by the Social Democratic Party. It bases its claim that the country should be named in accordance to the state's name.

The Serbs (Serbian People's Party, People's Socialist Party, Democratic Party of Unity and Serbian Radical Party), the Socialist People's Party, the People's Party and the Democratic Serbian Party want the Serbian language to be kept alone, on the basis that more than 63% of the population speaks the Serbian language (according to the last not-so-long-ago-held population census), i.e. a firm majority.

Neutral, international (and domestic) polls decided to solve the controversy by conducting wide-scale polls asking the population what language they speak. It appears that these days over 60% of the population still considers its language Serbian, which further gives a plus to this.

The Movement of Changes suggested that the new Constitution states "Serbo-Montenegrin language is the official language of the Republic of Montenegro".

---

The Bosniak party also wants some form of mention of the Bosnian language. This is especially because the Montenegrin DPS Milo's regime does not recognize the Bosniaks their national language. --PaxEquilibrium 19:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It's from NDI (National Democratic Institute).

Milo demands the Montenegrin language and the opposition demands the Serbian language. Why do You consider PzP's proposal laughable? How can a mutant be created when same things are combined (Montenegrin and Serbian are one language).

Well this was Milo's original proposal from the early 21st century (although I believe it was only there to attract minority support): "Bosnian, Montenegrin, Croatian and Serbian language" as the official in Montenegro (back then he was at odds with the Albanians, who're now the sole reason that still keeps him in power).

BTW if You have voting rights (and if You voted), for whom did You vote in 2006? --PaxEquilibrium 21:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

---

I'll answer You with a counter-question: Why is there an article on Serbo-Croatian. :) Considering that Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, Bunyev, Zlatiborian or whatever name anyone makes up for it, I would be a self-contradicting idiot to claim that Serbian and Montenegrin are not one language. :) BTW that's exactly why I expressed those opinions on the (second) request for a Montenegrin Wikipedia.

The Movement for Changes is unarguably the best option to me, the Liberals have stranded off too far from their original beliefs, and the party has no greater future outside an alliance which would be led by the Movement for Changes and/or the Popular Socialists. And although their goals are just, their means aren't. There is no one with whom they haven't been (yes, even the Serbian Radical Party) for a Liberal party...and I don't like some of their people (former Serbian ultranationalists, now extreme Montenegrin nationalists). It's good that there's just few of 'em. You know where I stand at the language's issue. I stand firm at either mentioning Serbian, Montenegrin, Albanian, Croatian and Bosnian. I would also demand Milo to recognize the Bosniacs their language, what he's doing is futile. Another option can only be - just Serbian (that does not mean that I'd accept "Serbian and Montenegrin" or any mixture whatsoever, but these options go before).

Leave the religion out of it. Issue an edict recognizing the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, the Islamic Community and any other only in edicts issued by the Parliament.

Non-national free civic state. I'd also accept a "State of Montenegrins, Serbs, X [whoever goes here, Bosniacs or Albanians] and all other citizens", but not so much as the first part.

I also don't like DPS's demands on not holding elections immediately after the Constitution (they fear) and their demands for a solely government-controlled Court. I also don't like their constants ignoring of national minorities' rights. I never really understood why so many people support Milo, he's a demagogic and corrupt person (then again, I never understood all the people that support Milosevic). --PaxEquilibrium 11:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

---

I think that PzP-SNP-NS-someone else could easily win the next election. At "someone else" I think LP most probably; I also wouldn't mind that GP or the Greens return (or even DS), but I fear having larger MPs in the parliament might come at a terrible cost - repetition of that which happened to DOS in Serbia. Such a coalition (with Nebojsa Medojevic as Prime Minister, or someone else whatever) could easily attract support of the minorities (Slavic Muslims) and with Serb support, a government (minority or not) ould be easily elected without problems. --PaxEquilibrium 18:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so skeptic about SNP. Ever since 2001, I consider it (until of course PzP emerged) the best political party (there were better choices [heck, even the Civic Party], but its vast political strength and popularity made it "best"). I mean unlike DPS (or even SDP and LP) the party does not hide its goals, and say that the possibility of recreating a state union with former Yugoslav countries (preferably Serbia, despite that seems almost impossible) must remain open.

I don't see how could that be deceiving, since Serbian is much stronger than Montenegrin presence anyway. I think he's just subsiding and starting to accept reality.

Treacherous? How come; You never ever supported Milo and You new how was he, how could this be treason? BTW I think we all learned this so far: Milo betrayed everyone he was in possibility to betray, ever. :) If tomorrow he betrays himself by surrendering to the Italian Police, I still wouldn't be wondered. :)))

Yes, I know about Your opinion. :) But You didn't answer me - didn't You ever hear of Serbo-Croat? BTW in Croatia a similar thing was done in 1974. After the nationalist 1970s and the Croatian Spring, Tito subsided to the demands and changed "Serbo-Croatian" (or "Croato-Serbian") to "Croatian or Serbian", until Croatian was just left in 1990. I think "Montenegro-Serbian" or whatever will last, until "Montenegrin" is just left (if DPS makes it that long, which I seriously doubt). But I do not think that the Montenegrin language could be formed/survive without DPS... (so you see now my skepticism over at the Meta wiki-request).

Actually, it's likely they'll be this year immediately. I am almost positive DPS will lose (even if it goes together with SDP). But I fear that PzP and SNP will not be able to make out their differences and organize a minority government with someone else (PzP would never go with SNS, with which SNP would; while SNP would never go with LP, with which PzP would).

Of course I am not delighted by it. I told what I'd prefer (just "Serbian" or "Albanian, Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian"; but I also said that I could accept "Montenegrin and/or Serbian"). Cheers --PaxEquilibrium 21:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I meant "Albanian, Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin and Serbian". --PaxEquilibrium 21:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Sad

What? I did not get what I wanted.

I wanted (and thought that'll happen) the request will stay at the Meta for another month or so, when we became sure if the Montenegrin language is formed. Do You know how tiresome it will be to remake the request after 2-3 months, for a 3rd time!?

Not what I wanted at all. --PaxEquilibrium 11:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that the main problem lies in the fact that that you fight and that You see this all as a Battle. That's no case. --PaxEquilibrium 16:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Petar Crnojevic

By the way - did You see/read/hear about the interview with Pero Jovov Crnojevic? He said that he cannot believe what DPS and Milo are doing, turning Montenegro inside out into an artificial creation and completely betraying its historical heritage (referring to the Montenegrin language and the Montenegrin Orthodox Church). He said that if they succeed, the most disgusting thing after 1496 when his ancestors lost Montenegro would happen to his homeland.

Although this might be referring to the fact that the Crnojevics and the alleged self-proclaimed descendants of the Balsics are all pro-Serbs. ;)

On the other side, the Petrovic-Njegos lobbied for independence of Montenegro. :D Bizarre, don't You think. However Mihailo said that creating a Montenegrin language would be against history and reality (and remember that he strongly endorses the autonomy and recognition of the MOC)...

This gets more and more bizarre. LOL --PaxEquilibrium 21:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I know it's odd; that's why I mentioned it. :)))

The Balshichs are wannabes that live in Belgrade, Serbia. But the Crnojevics are "authentic". The vast family has existed for a long time - and still does now. If You deny that, than You must also say that Ivan Crnojevic never existed. :))) The present-day Vasojevici are of the same family as Milla Jovovic for example.

I was just scoping the opinions of the ol' relevant people. --PaxEquilibrium 22:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

You know how it goes in Montenegro; I myself am related to both Stjepan Mitrov Ljubisa and Stefan Pastrovic for example (don't ask). --PaxEquilibrium 22:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Watched it on TV some 8 days ago or so.

I know how will the government react - they decided to solve this through the constitution. If it continues to separate the Church from the state, they'll keep neutral - otherwise, you know what'll happen.

BTW I think that claim slightly has no basis.

I think CrnaGora will stay; btw there's Momisan; there are also Milan Tesevic and me (if you count me) and a couple of more people that are active once/twice a month. --PaxEquilibrium 00:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Did You hear?

President Filip Vujanovic declared his attitude. He said that he will defend the property of the Serbian Orthodox Church from the attempted usurpation of the non-canonical Montenegrin Orthodox Church as per his duty. He also advices the MOC to go to direct legal suits if anything bothers it (and legally, MOC simply stands no chance).

Because of his frequent demands to take politics and governance out of canonical ecclesiastic law (which is not historically possible in Montenegro's case ;) and his Belgrade birthplace and Serbian parents, he is becoming unpopular within his own part. Jevrem Brkovic already spat on him. :D)

BTW I consider this completely unrealistic, considering that the Serbian Orthodox Church has been the single political institution in which most Montenegrins had trust ever since... (I'd say forever ;), but it still remains. The Research section has conducted yet another research in February this year - and the SOC kept its reputation as the most appealed institution amongst the Montenegrins (the Montenegrin Orthodox Church is now at the 6th place; it fell slightly because of the numerous incidents that decreased its popularity). So that's anyway why I consider both the MOC itself and its demands... slightly unrealistic. ;))) --PaxEquilibrium 09:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW the DPS seems to be losing in popularity. So now, it seems that DPS and PzP are evenly matched!!! ;)

I'm starting to think elections after the constitution might be the best thing Montenegro could have. PzP will no longer be a mid-sized opposition party but perhaps even a key element in the construction of a new government. --PaxEquilibrium 09:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I just read your post for the first time. ;))) I guess you're among those people that have that opinion.

I don't think I know your opinion on Risto Radovic...

If yah need to know my nationality: I'll tell you -> it was mostly "Yugoslavian", but I remember that I listed on the census "Croatian" (and on the most recent census I wrote "Vlach")... it's really pointless to me as I think people should be proud of more than one nation and can belong to my nations (and considering I am deeply tied to my Montenegrin roots, I am a Montenegrin).

I don't know if You'll gladly count Milan Tesevic (User:MilanT), I think you believe "real Montenegrins" are only those speaking the Montenegrin language and/or being adherent to the MOC, instead of Serbian and SOC (I've got a feeling that's why you don't consider me). ;))) --PaxEquilibrium 09:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Milant

The MOC has proclaimed that the decision of the Montenegrin government, or any Montenegrin or non-Montenegrin who is outside its Council is irrelevant and no a attention will be paid to them. The Metropolitan announced that the "liberation" shall proceed as planned.

So far allegedly it seems that the Montenegrin Orthodox officials are preparing to seize and take over Eastern Orthodox Christian ecclesiastic property found on the soil of the Republic of Montenegro in a "strategic operation" (offensive), capturing the seat in Cetinje and the key most important historical monasteries, and then to "deal with" the other "enemy units" that will crumble using a para-military force known as the "Lovćen Guard" (I think under the control of Jevrem Brković; if I'm right). However, it is unlikely they shall succeed. Even one DPS official said "let them try...they shall meet the resistance of the Montenegrin people".

By the way, the Ministry of Internal Affairs has notified the police to watch out on SOC's property and arrest anyone jeopardizing it; an SNP dumb-ass hypothesized a civil war as the Montenegrin "forces" (if we could call it such) are allegedly authorized to shoot at this "Lovcen Guard".

uber-LOL, I don't know if I can believe in this myself. :D

BTW it is also considered to put this Lovcen guard (if it exists) under terrorist organizations in Montenegro.

I guess Miloism is finally dying out and Montenegro perhaps is returning to itself, as totally independent from Serbia. ;)

BTW you can figure yourself now why I pretty much dislike the MOC - I don't like Amfilohije either; Belgrade puts up with him only because Montenegro is a... "jeopardized area".... though if the Montenegrin country continues to reacts like this, there's no need to be afraid of anything anymore. ;))) --PaxEquilibrium 17:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and so far the MOC has been receiving (especially under Milo) money and was being financed by the Montenegrin government... they just stopped the funding. ;) I guess now that Montenegro is independent, there is no more need for the MOC. ;) --PaxEquilibrium 17:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that religious people are adherents of the SOC, and atheists of the MOC (it really isn't a religious institution anyway; more of a nationalist and political way). ;)

You should not generalize; Patriarch Pavle is one of the brightest people the Balkans have seen and the Serbs had for a long time (he's a physicist, a chemist and a scientist too).

I too dislike Amfilohije, he's much too like Novak Kilibarda, Jevrem Brkovic (or even Momir and Milo) or the rest of the ultra-nationalists, I don't like him one bit... :X but that does not change the fact that he's the spiritual leader of the Montenegrins. :)

What's that wrong with NS (I don't care for tiny parties like DSS) now? Keep on mind that they changed a lot; most of the old league Serb ultra-nationalists are now either in DPS or in the Liberals. As I see, they oppose defining the language issue and want to leave it to the people; they support separating the church from the state, they fully recognize the independent Montenegrin state (unlike SNP which still considers the referendum invalid for example), and they support a civic-state, rather than nation-state. As I saw, their constitutional proposal seems to be the lightest of them all. They're also made by mostly self-styled Montenegrins, rather than Serbs by nationality.

Remember that the Liberal Party also has several characters that could be said that they hate anything Serbian, including the very language they speak (just like DPS). ;)

I think that SNS and its rapidly radicalizing and growing wing is the real threat over here.

If that's the truth, then I understand the creation - but Jevrem Brkovic for God's sake? And all the crimes they're involved isn't nice. The infamous "Jedinica" (JSO) was formed to protect Serb civilians in Lika; it ended up as a butchering war machine, one of the greatest of modern Europe.

What were "ultra-Serb forces"? --PaxEquilibrium 18:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I really did not know that. I always considered them "purified" after the nationalists left and formed the SNS (and then the not-so-nationalist moderate ones left them and formed DSS).

That which you're saying comes really shocking to me, because I remember Popovic saying that he supports a civic-state (non-national). And now I read that their proposals are nation-states??? BTW that's even more radical than SNS, SNS proposes "Crna Gora drzava Crnogorskog i srpskog naroda, separating them.

Article 4 wth?!?

I think that only PzP, SNP and LPCG have a bit of sanity about the ecclesiastic matter, I'm shocked the dumb-asses never heard of segregation of the Church from the State.

Well, you know that I think Article 13 is OK (with good reasons). ;) Not that they're really make the others (DPS) accept it...

I'm not gonna comment the Article 14 (I hope that one day Europe will be unified, which of course means not independent Montenegr)... but you do not that SNP is the original proposal of this (it's the only request which's the same)?

When did that happen (Mausoleum thing)? I mean, in which year?

I mean, it was a Chapel owned by the Serbian Orthodox Church before the Communists replaced it with a Mausoleum... :) I think Radovic shouldn't've act like Miras Dedeic about these matters by trying to "retake" things by force (though this was actually seized by force and against the will of the church, unlike with the other case). ;D I don't think it has anything to do with Mestrovic, more of with the Communists.

Are You sure they wanted to destroy it and build a totally new Church on its ground (they could've just restored Njegos' chapel)??? I --PaxEquilibrium 11:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

---

BTW, the two Presidents (Filip Vujanovic and Boris Tadic) have talked about this; they agreed that the actions of the uncanonical Montenegrin Orthodox Church are unacceptable (using those words) and Filip Vujanovic assured Boris Tadic not a cent of SOC's property will be stolen.

You should also know that Filip Vujanovic stated that his proposal is "MonteSerbian", and not just Serbian, just Montenegrin, or both languages.

Severals myths were immediately released by tabloids; one is that Filip Vujanovic is leading a wing of DPS and desires Serbia's backing, in which he will oust Milo's "old style" politicians (Zeljko Sturanovic included), by relying on Serbs and Muslims and Liberals to "push over the census" and wipe out Milo's legacy.

The other (unlikely one) is that he intends to join either PzP or SNP, together with a large number of DPS officials. --PaxEquilibrium 16:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Iceland/ Ireland

Thanks!! What do you think of the page so far? --Theeuro 20:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

UN declaration

regarding the crnogorski, a ne srpsko-hrvatski.

Huh? Isn't Montenegrin Serbo-Croat as much as Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian???

That's the official sentence of the declaration (btw that's not quite "proper" Montenegrin, we spoke of this before). --PaxEquilibrium 21:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Although that's not quite related to the up (lol), you can find yer answer o'er at Talk:Battle_of_Vučji_Do. --PaxEquilibrium 21:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought we already cleared that up? ;) --PaxEquilibrium 21:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

eh... what is true Montenegrin language? ;)

Not expecting an answer 'ere (yet). --PaxEquilibrium 21:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Zeta anthem

I did not misunderstand.

That's why I put it under Legacy. --PaxEquilibrium 23:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You make sense.

(referring to the last one). Actually I do. Legacy is legacy.

I'm adding a link to the Doclean Academy of Sciences and Arts to the Duklja article right now. --PaxEquilibrium 23:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, when was it (the mausoleum/chapel thing)? --PaxEquilibrium 17:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I really don't I understand how I missed that news (maybe I cannot remember or somethin').

I don't understand, what were they thinking? Didn't they know the museum was a Chapel itself before? They could've just converted it to what it was before for crying out lauds (not destroy it)! That's blasphemy!

2004 and 2005? Aren't the Lovcen Guards a lot older than the two years???

I don't mind, but Wikipedia does. You have to provide translations of posts, should write in any language other than English. --PaxEquilibrium 22:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

All I heard 'bout them were some very controversial things, including that Yugoslav wars warlords can be found among their ranks and other very strange things... some people even told me (before 2004, I think we all agree they exist now) that they're imaginary, lol. ;) --PaxEquilibrium 22:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Ultras

Hi, just wanted to explain my reverting your edit. The image of Alex from A Clockwork Orange is used by a number of Ultra Groups on their banners in different countries, which is why, unfortunately, I reverted your removal of it the section about images used from Pop Culture on banners.♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 16:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Clockwork Orange is a famous film and Alex is the main character, played by Malcolm McDowell. The image of him with his bowler hat and odd eye make up is on a number of Ultra banners, including some that I have seen linked to on wikipedia. Though having worked on the list on the Ultras page for a while now and literally gone through every single website linked to, I can't right now remember the exact links with the pictures!! Thanks ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 22:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Zelenaši

It seems you should be reading up on your history, mate. The Greens were proud Montenegrin Serbs (just look at their leaders - Kralj Nikola, Krtso Popović, Novica Radović), which is the reason for their disappointment with the way unification happened (disappearance of Montenegro as a political entity, no Patriarchate of Peć for the Montenegrin bishops). (Although of the six patriarchs since the unification of the church, two were Montenerins (Varnava and Gavrilo), one was Vojvodinian, two were Srbijanci and one was a prečan (Pavle)).

In my opinion, they wanted a central role for Montenegro in unification, a role that its small population did not merit. The historical development of Serbia and Montenegro mirrored that between Prussia and Austria IMHO - in both cases two states vied to take the central role in the unification of their respective ethnic groups - Serbs and Germans. In both cases, the larger state kept expanding until in the end it was joined by the smaller state (and any disputes were because of loss of prestige within the ethnic space, not interethnic), which years later became disillusioned with the arrangement, in both cases (coincidentally) following a military defeat (WWII and the Yugoslav Wars). Both smaller states then left the union, forging a new separate identity during and after the process of separation.--Methodius 05:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but there's no Montenegrin Orthodox Church and Montenegrin language *madness* (no insult attached) in Austria. ;) Though they did try it out in the 1960s (the language thing), but they quickly dropped it as per "being insane" (precise words given, lol ;). "American language" was also official in USA for a very short time, if ya didn't know. --PaxEquilibrium 13:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

NS and DSS

I don't care about DSS, because I consider them a national minority party, but the best one that nation has got (only it deserves to be called "democratic"; most of all it refused to join the Serbian List with the Seseljists and Momirists).

But I never watched NS like that (I've always seen it just like DPS, "Montenegrin").

BTW did the two have anything to do with the Museum incident, or it was just SNS? 'cause as it seems to me, that's the reason why the opposition (SNP-NS-DSS) evicted it from its block.

Recently SNP distanced itself from NS and DSS and even broke the "permanent opposition coalition block" that stood always (ever since 2001). I consider it a loss, how about you? --PaxEquilibrium 13:08, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Knock, knock? --PaxEquilibrium 16:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Really? I actually thought of it completely the other way. Because I remember that Novak Kilibarda practically threatened to destroy Croatia and the Bosnian Muslims and was himself one of the supporters of a Greater Serbia (er, allegedly; not going into that controversy over there). I would not dare compare SRS-style NS under Kilibarda and currently SPO-style NS. Are you suggesting that NS was not pro-Serb before? They were like the Serbian Radical Party is in Serbia.

Yeah, but SNP will always be a social conservative party (heck, in ex Yugoslavia only conservative parties win). ;) --PaxEquilibrium 17:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW who are the DSJ? I've never ever heard of them before. I noticed that there's very little info on NSS also. --PaxEquilibrium 17:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Just like 90% of the Montenegrin 1990s activists. ;) (from Serb nationalist to Montenegrin, or in several cases Croatian nationalist). It's to my thinking that that Milosevic's losing policy is that which made them change their minds (some of them for the 4th time, lol ;)

No, no, you think of the klubaši, and they were founded in 1907. And what's wrong with following the only Montenegrin party back then? ;) The "People's Party" was the one and one political party in Montenegro. --PaxEquilibrium 18:01, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I know all about NSS, and I think they're disgusting almost as much as DPS (but not as much as SRS). However, I see that Emilo Labudovic leads them; Momir Bulatovic is only "honorary" president (though I think they removed even that title from him ;).

SSR? Now what on earth is that?

About Mandic... LOL... well hopefully the last of these will die out with a single Srbenda in the Dutch capital. :0) --PaxEquilibrium 18:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I find that which you're saying very... odd. I always thought: Klubasi=people and Pravasi=King, and I'd always support the first one (better people's rule, than King's dictatorship). The People's Party was created in 1907 from every single Montenegrin MP, and it has remained like that before the Pravasi were created.

If that more shows that the people wanted the Podgorica Assembly...?

On the other hand WWI collaborations is terrifying. When/what/how did they do that??? --PaxEquilibrium 18:32, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Hooligan firms

Hi, just to explain why I had changed the title of the "List", further to your response when reverting it back, "this is an appropriate title, regardless of whether the list is complete or not" . As you have probably seen, a User has deleted the entire list of ultra groups from the Ultras page. My concern was that the list on hooligan firms may well end up being deleted.♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 19:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Ultras again

By the way, I forgot to ask about the Ultras page. I was going to mention it to you, and ask what your thoughts were on the list of groups being deleted?♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 19:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, I had hoped that you might agree that there should be some form of list of groups on the page. I can understand the concerns that it doesn't just become an indiscriminate list of unsourced groups, as it was before, but do think that something needs to be in there. Which is one of the reasons why I had moved all the South American groups to these two articles - Barra brava and Torcida. How would you suggest approaching it now and what groups to go in there? ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 20:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I was just browsing through another article - Football (soccer) hooliganism. On that page, there are sections about different countries talking about hooliganism specific to that country. I was just wondering then if it might be worth trying something similar on the Ultras article, adding countries with a brief mention of Ultra culture in that country etc plus mention of some groups from that country. That way it would not be a list as such at all, just some groups named within sections on the article. What do you think?♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 22:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Serb

Why has it come that "Serb"="conservative, nationalistic and evil" in many places in Montenegro (lol, even from some of yer comments ;0)?

Montenegro isn't Croatia or Kosovo. --PaxEquilibrium 18:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't asking your opinion (I know you belong to the "Good Bloc"), general opinion minds me: I've heard the opinions of the many on the Serbian Orthodox Church (including yourself; putting aside the fact that it's the single most popular Montenegrin institution), and in general the two hundred thousand Montenegrins that in 2003 switched their nationalities back to "Serbs" are being even deadly despised by some (including DPS), and this leads to so far extent that whether you called (at least it was that way until recently) yourself a Serb depends/ed whether you're allowed into administration (no "Serb-styled montenegrin" has been in there ever since 1945).

For example, while watching the parliament, the People's Party nor even the far-right Serbian parties do not mention the nationality of Montenegrins before 1945 (that "we were all Serbs"), but I count(ed) that DPS officials on regular basis make ridicule remarks (not racist, of course) on the gigantic number of Montenegrins that in 2003 registered as Serbs.

You hope it'll stay that way? I know the PzP said that Kosovo should not secede from Serbia without Belgrade's consent and that no status should be imposed in Kosovo without Pristina's acceptance, but doesn't LPCG support the independence of Kosovo? :) --PaxEquilibrium 20:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

LOL, I think that the MOC can now be officially listed into the extremist (alongside DANU) bloc after today (and especially after the next Friday, if they try what they promise). :( --PaxEquilibrium 19:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Re:Montenegro

Hi. Thanks for the invitation. I don't know much about Montenegro and most of what I know I've learn it here on wikipedia, but I'll be happy to try and help out with Montenegro-related articles, even if it's just tagging the talk page with the project template... Count me in, Cattus 23:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

LPCG

I thought I heard some Liberals (though not high in ranks) say that the best thing is that Kosovo becomes an independent state and autonomy for Vojvodina restored long ago (but not very long)...

Yeah, saw 'em. --PaxEquilibrium 23:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Montenegrin Orthodox Church

Talk:Montenegrin Orthodox Church

I fulfilled your demands. Satisfied now? ;) --PaxEquilibrium 21:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW see what Mihailo Petrovic-Njegos (Nikola I's successor) wrote in 1969 in Paris in exile: Talk:Prince Michael of Montenegro.

Things like these make me think if returning Njegos' Chapel instead of the Museum an IMHO right thing to do. ;(

...and I guess that's why I do not really understand the attitudes of his son (the present-day heir). :0) --PaxEquilibrium 22:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Petrovic-Njegos vladikas

Metropolitan	Election	Beatification
Danil(o) Scepcevic	elected by the Zbor in 1697, on Serb Patriarch Arsenije III Carnojevic's of Pec behalf	1700, by Serb Metropolitan Arsenije III Crnojevic of Saint Andrews
Sava	by Sava before 1719	1719 by Patriarch Mojsije of Pec in Montenegro
Vasilije	self-proposed	1750 in Belgrade by Patriarch Atanasius II of Pec
Arsenije Plamenac	proposed by Sava	in 1768 by Serb Patriarch Vasilije Brkic
Petar Petrovic-Njegos	generally encouraged	beatified in 1784 by Serb Metropolitan Mojsije Putnik

I really do not understand by what you think simply untrue - do you claim that all those (Petar Petrovic Njegos, Danilo,...) never existed? --PaxEquilibrium 14:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes he was, by the Serb Metropolitan of Karlowitz.

That's because I counted the its construction. It gained a Constitution of the Holy Synod no sooner than 1903, and that was ratified not earlier than through the 1905 Constitution of the Princedom of Montenegro. The Metropolitanate received official recognition of autonomy from the Russian Orthodox Church at the very end of the 19th century.

But sure, Petar II Petrovic-Njegos (and Danilo II Petrovic), Nikanor Ivanovic, Ilarion II Roganovic, Visarion III Ljubisa and Mitrofan Ban in 1833-1920 de facto ruled independently an Orthodox Bishopric.

And anyway, Miras Dedeic isn't and Antonije Abramovic wasn't a Serbian nationalist, so they cannot even begin to connect themselves to the autocephalous Metropolitanate. :0)

Let me quote you: If you find a single proof that any vladika' from Petrovic dynasty was subordinated to the Serbian patriarch, then we can talk about your allegations. Good luck with that... Sideshow Bob 00:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The point was over 'ere - did I not prove it for the most? ;) --PaxEquilibrium 15:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

LOL, that was just a joke on the accounts of the insanity that rotates around the Montenegrin Orthodox Church. :D

Miras Dedeic (including his predecessor Antonije Abramovic) not only consider themselves (Antonije on one occasion said that Montenegrins are of Croatian origin and he said that the future of the MOC lies as a Greek Catholic-styled organization) completely and totally anti-Serbs, but Miras even makes often racist remarks about people's nationality threatening anyone who supports the SOC (most) and saying that anyone who is an adherent of the SOC cannot be a Montenegrin, but only a member of the Serbian national minority in Montenegro.

This is totally contrary to the entire Metropolitanate in its 650 years of existence, and even more shockingly especially the autocephalous 19th century/early 20th century Metropolinate to which the MOC actually claims to descend. If I mentioned the things that were happening nowadays to Visarion Ljubisa, Njegos, Mitrofan Ban or Gavrilo Dozic, I'm convinced they would think I'm a disillusioned lunatic possessed by dark spirits. :0)

P.S. That's the "Stranka deviznih štediša". --PaxEquilibrium 16:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Duplicate images uploaded

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People's Party

Replied over at Talk:People's Party of Montenegro. --PaxEquilibrium 14:24, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Constitution

The SNP has here made a detailed draft of all suggestions from all parties. --PaxEquilibrium 20:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe DPS CG thinks it'll get parliamentary support for the language - they suggested just "Montenegrin language" and that alone. ;D

SNP, SNS, NS & DSS want to keep the current thing.

PzP suggests: U Crnoj Gori u službenoj upotrebi je jedinstven jezik, koji građani nazivaju srpski, crnogorski. --PaxEquilibrium 20:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

People's Party's

...resolution about Kosovo - will it be adopted? --PaxEquilibrium 13:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The resolution permits itself to *official recognition of Belgrade's and Moscow's attempts in a compromise solution, rather than an imposed one*

It also suggests that if Kosovo turns out something like the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus (very likely, if Russia vetoes it, they'll have just recognition from a part of the world - binding Montenegro not to recognize Kosovo as an independent country.

It depends. PzP, LPCG (to my greatest shocking), SNP, SL, NS, DSS all support it; the three Albanian parties soundly and vigorously oppose it. SDP is not likely to accept it, but Krivokapic said "..it has to end.." (refer to separatism). DPS's opinions are divided - the Old Wing of Milo Djukanovic fiercely opposes it, while Filip Vujanovic's is neutral.

I think we'll have a clash like in 1997-1998 within DPS soon (between Milo and Vujanovic), lol. --PaxEquilibrium 11:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Franjo Tudjman & Brioni

Did you watch the news.

Horrifying. Absolutely horrifying... no comment. --PaxEquilibrium 11:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, check out HRH Nicholas I's article.

You could hep in the discussion.

Best regards. --PaxEquilibrium 12:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Did I say something wrong (you're silent)?

P.S. Critika1's edits are getting highly controversial; I think he pays no heed to discussions.

There was a show "Sudar" on TV Pink with one MOC priest and one SOC priest. The argument was a farse as both just kept yelling and practically fighting among each other. It really was a "show" as the SOC priest kept throwing (literally) at the other dude edicts and codes of Prince/King Nicholas and the other guy kept making romantic nationalistic speeches... *sigh* --PaxEquilibrium 15:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

But ya simply cannot imagine how I feel, considering that a member of my family voted for HDZ at the last election. And I wish that that view "we all know" is not only present in Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, etc... but in Croatia too...

BTW politically, I'm much more sympathetic to the Liberal Democratic Party (Serbia), which supports an independent Kosovo (as before Montenegro). I think that considering that Kosovo is lost, they have to take as much positive as they can from it. --PaxEquilibrium 15:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Well Agin Ceku said something considering this.

"There are two Serbian states in the Balkans - and it's perfectly fine for them. There is thus, no reason, to fear from two states in the Balkans, that will only equate the Serbians' advantag", referring to Kosovar reaction after Montenegro proclaimed independence and received recognition of it. --PaxEquilibrium 15:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Not that I share any Ceku's opinion at all, of course. --PaxEquilibrium 15:44, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!

Hi! Thanks for your recent revert of my user page due to vandalism. I have warned the IP vandal again about it. --BloodDoll 20:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

UCC

Kosovar Liberation Army in Kosovo in, Liberation Army of Presevo, Medvedja and Bujanovac, Macedonian National Liberation Army... and now the Liberation Army of Chameria (south Epirus in Greece).

...do you fear too that Montenegro is next? (Kraja) --PaxEquilibrium 14:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

...but then I will lose my catch that I constantly throw at other people's faces - that Montenegro is the only Yugoslavian region that (despite becoming most politicized and returning to the status of "divided land"), evaded bloodshed. How will I be able to keep mentioning that afterwards?

You know that there is already an Albanian terrorist unit in Montenegro - they tried to sabotage the most recent 2006 parliamentary election, don't you remember?

Anyway, I think that this situation is only maintained because the Albanian political parties are supporting Djukanovic (and one is in the present government even) - as you know, 2 of them have contacts with extremist circles (and one of them even supports openly a Greater Albania), and I think they're only *pacifying* them for now, because of political interests - there is already a political territorial organization in Kraja, where some of its residents have even passed a referendum of secession from Montenegro and joining Albania (though limited to villages, solely). --PaxEquilibrium 21:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I haven't heard of such developments... but I guess it really doesn't come like a shock in a place like this.

Speaking of such things; Nebojsa Medojevic and Predrag Bulatovic have both stated right after the ecclesiastic incident that the government is just using this to avert attention from more important things, such as organized crime and high corruption present in the Montenegrin top, and to avert the eyes from growing (downwards, poor) everyday social standards and economic difficulties Montenegro is facing.

The most pathetic part is - people who would be causing violence on that day would have no idea why they were doing it,have no idea what the point of that march is... I think you've got the key for at least 6,000,000,000 people in the world over there... --PaxEquilibrium 22:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW the MOC will have another go in Sunday... --PaxEquilibrium 22:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

What? But... that can be revised, can it?

How on earth did the Romanians get into EU with it then? --PaxEquilibrium 00:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: Kingdom of Montenegro flag

Because it had been tagged with an invalid license, as was thus eligible for deletion. ^demon^{[omg plz]} 20:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)