Rywko

Wild assumptions

So, why do you make some wild assumptions about what you believe I understand!? The sentence was clearly FALSE and I understand what is "proper" and improper pronunciation. The example is about a loanword which is NEVER pronounced as such! Additionally, the /o/ exists. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 10:48, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The section is about how CVVC syllables can exist where in proper MSA you're supposed to have CVV.Ci in those cases, which does happen, you can't just assert that it doesn't. Similarly the pronunciation of /raːdjuː/ is the one found in the source I linked and anecdotally I in fact have spoken to people who use that pronunciation when speaking formally or writing poetry, just because you are personally not familiar doesn't mean it is false. Also the addition of [ɾɑ(ː)djo] left a bad taste in my mouth as that isn't really accurate to all speakers, which is why I stuck to phonemic transcription, many speakers do have [r] word-initially, and many do [ræː] or [ɾæː] rather than [ɾɑː], etc. and shortening the first syllable to [ɾɑdjo] is actually pretty emblematic of Egypt and would phonemically be reanalyzed as /radjoː/, you can't have /raːdjoː/ [ɾɑdjo] that's just incorrect. --User:Rywko 13:27, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Says who that MSA prohibts CV:C syllables? It's ubiquitous, e.g. هناك٫ حمار٫ صاروخ the second syllable of the previous words has this syllable structure. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 14:10, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

"Super-heavy syllables are usually not allowed except word finally, but CVVC syllables can be found in the active participles of geminate Form I verbs, like in ‏حاج‎ /ħaːdd͡ʒ/ "pilgrim", ‏مادة‎ /maːdda(h)/ "substance, matter", ‏كافة‎ /kaːffa(h)/ "entirely", ‏سام‎ /saːmm/ "poisonous", ‏جاف‎ /d͡ʒaːff/ "dry", ‏عام‎ /ʕaːmm/ "public, general", ‏خاص‎ /χaːsˤsˤ/ "private, special", and ‏حار‎ /ħaːrr/ "hot, spicy"." --User:Rywko 14:14, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

We don't pronounce those with a long consonant in the end, only when they are followed with another word or in the case of ijam, the geminate starts to appear split in two separate syllables. Mahmudmasri (talk) 19:16, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I know. I simply didn't specify that, my point is no less accurate. Now can you stop edit warring and return my accurate sentence about CVVC syllables being allowed non-finally in more casual pronunciation of loanwords, or are you just gonna be annoying? --User:Rywko 20:38, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

It is now undeniably accurate and I haven't had an edit war. The quote you referred to was a misquote from the source in transliteration, rather than IPA. Mahmudmasri (talk) 20:42, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Why راديو does not break the exception?

It is [ˈrɑːd.jo] CVVC.CV, I see no broken rules. If you analyzed it as [ˈrɑːdj.o] CVVCC.V, then you break the rule CV, as there are no words with a vowel alone. Mahmudmasri (talk) 20:54, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

It is not I speak daily with people who say /raːdijuː/ and /ruːsijaː/ and /suːrijaː/ in Standard Arabic, stop assuming your experience is universal, my sentence isn't a misquote it's a clarification that CVVC syllables can happen in non-final syllables in casual pronunciation of loanwords. Because normally CVVC syllables and CVCC syllables are only allowed word-finally, or in the case of CVVC before a geminate not any consonant cluster. --User:Rywko 21:04, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

/raː.di.juː/ CVV.CV.CVV, /ruː.si.jaː/ CVV.CV.CVV, /suː.ri.jaː/ CVV.CV.CVV. Greets. Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:25, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

There are people, however, who actually pronounce those words as such, except for radio, nevertheless I didn't mean you misquoted, rather the article misquoted something. Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:27, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Words ending with geminates don't exist, as the geminated only appear with inflection. E.g. الجو حار جدا /al.ɡaw.wu haːr.run ɡid.dan/ CV.CVC.CV CVVC.CVC CVC.CVC. Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:50, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I am gonna explain it one last time as my patience is honestly running thin, the way you consistently misinterpret my very clear arguments is honestly baffling:

What I am saying is that CVVC syllables other than word finally or before geminates are not allowed, which is a commonly known fact AND in the paper that you poorly read, examples are (and I'm only gonna use words already mentioned in this conversation to not confuse you):

صاروخ /sˤaː.ruːχ/, حمار /ħi.maːr/, هناك /hu.naːk/, مادة‎ /maːdda(h)/, كافة‎ /kaːffa(h)/

as you can see, in all those examples the CVVC syllable was either at the end of the word (the first three words), or before a geminate (the last two words), none of them where a CVVC syllable followed by a non-geminate syllable.

I am indeed aware that geminates don't occur utterance finally, I simply showed a phonemic analysis of حاج‎ /ħaːdd͡ʒ/, سام‎ /saːmm/, جاف‎ /d͡ʒaːff/, عام‎ /ʕaːmm/, حار‎ /ħaːrr/ because when followed by a word or suffix it is pronounced. I simply forgot to mention that they aren't pronounced word finally unless followed by a word or suffix, that is indeed a mistake I made.

Things like /raːd.joː/ break that syllable structure rule, but are still done because they are allowed dialectally. I mentioned /raː.di.juː/, /ruː.si.jaː/, and /suː.ri.jaː/ as examples of proper pronunciations of the very common /raːd.joː/, /ruːs.jaː/, and /suːr.jaː/ which break Standard Arabic syllable structure rules but are sometimes done because they are allowed dialectally.

And for the last time just because you haven't *personally* heard it before, doesn't mean that /raː.di.juː/ isn't a perfectly acceptable pronunciation, literally the source you keep saying I misquoted transcribes it as ⟨raad-yuu⟩ clearly showing the /raːd.juː/ pronunciation which is the only reason I used such a rare (BUT EXISTANT) pronunciation of the word.

You can use another less contentious example if you're that hung up on it, but I would argue you'd need another source for that if you want to be on the safe side, but in any way the point that you deleted is an important one to make. --User:Rywko 17:57, 25 December 2021 (UTC)