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j⚛e decker^talk 02:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Devşirme and baklava

Yes, I was skeptical about devşirme cooks -- and I was wrong, as your Köprülü Mehmed Pasha example shows. However, mentioning devşirme cooks in the baklava article is clearly OR/SYNTH in the absence of a reliable source making this link. Substantively, tell me, do you think that 10-year-old boys would have learned how to make baklava at home and then introduced it to the palace kitchens? --Macrakis (talk) 21:38, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Macrakis, you are being very kind to not remind this user that they are making questions and comments, and although not receiving any positive responses still continuing to edit to their own liking and as if we (the other users) agreed. This is a strange case. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 21:42, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Why should I have a User Name?, chill out! Piledhighandeep (talk) 23:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Older devşirme are not unheard of. According to Godfrey Goodwin, as cited on Mimar Sinan, Sinan was 20 or 21 when he was included in the devşirme. The Sinan WP article further states, "Sinan grew up helping his father in his work, and by the time that he was conscripted would have had a good grounding in the practicalities of building work," and cites the Encyclopedia Britannica [1]. Piledhighandeep (talk) 19:53, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Dear Why and Piled, I have several comments:

• Why, Piled is new to WP, and I agree that he's started off with some fairly audacious edits. But that's actually pretty common -- I think it's pretty hard to understand the Wikipedia approach without some experience. He has also shown that he's interested in getting good quality evidence and in engaging with other editors. So I hope he'll end up being a judicious and constructive editor.
• Piled, I think you'll find that I'm pretty impatient with tendentious arguments, where people only bring to the table evidence that supports their position. For that reason, I'm happy to see that you suggested including the Bertrandon quote -- though I don't think it's appropriate, being a primary source.

For both of you, I'd like to emphasize that the history of baklava is not the history of the Turkish or Greek people or culture or civilization. It is the history of one particular dish which is found across the Ottoman world. It is tempting to make it a metaphor for the blending of civilizations (central Asian folded bread meets Greek nuts and honey) or for Ottoman social stratification (indigenous people bring their culture to the palace) or for modern politics (the Ottomans appropriated Armenian / Greek / Arab / ... culture then repressed those same peoples) or for high civilization vs. barbarity (ancient Greek high culture repackaged by barbarous horsemen) or for the genius of one people or another. But that is not useful. We need to work bottom up: what can we determine about baklava itself, without presuming these global narratives. The global narratives should be build from solid bricks; we should not deform the bricks to fit pre-existing narratives. --Macrakis (talk) 02:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I thought that the WP baklava article would be read mostly by generalists, not the specialists, and I thought, from my own experience in talking to others, that the average WP reader will not understand that the undisputed Ottoman palace origin of baklava could still leave it realistically open whether baklava developed from cooks with Turkish cultural roots, since most readers would not realize that other cultural influences in the Ottoman palace kitchens are not outlandish, but in fact equally likely. Right now the Ottoman kitchen origin seems to be getting conflated with the Central Asian thesis. (unsigned contribution presumably by Piledhighandeep)

We cannot try to educate the reader about Ottoman culture -- which certainly incorporated pre-existing traditions in a variety of domains -- in every article that touches the Ottoman world. What we can try to do is incorporate as much specific information about each specific subject as we can. For example, many places in modern Greece and in modern Turkey have had large non-Greek/non-Christian or non-Turkish/non-Muslim populations in the past, and have had population changes (voluntary and involuntary, violent and peaceful) over the years. Let us make sure to document all this in great, NPOV, detail. Let us remember both the Massacre of Tripolitsa and the Massacre of Chios. Let us try to get good, solid sources for both of them, correcting nationalist hyperbole and propaganda on both sides. --Macrakis (talk) 02:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Interesting reference! That does seem like a Reliable Source. That said, I don't think he's really done his homework here -- he says it "looks like the predecessor of modern baklava", but doesn't give any evidence connecting this 1st century BCE salty cheese dish to the sweet nut dish 1300 years later. It would make more sense to connect it to tiropita, which of course also uses filo dough. So I would add it to the baklava article but not emphasize it too much. I am also on the trail of a more complete source, which I will be adding soon. --Macrakis (talk) 19:12, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I have edited tiropita and börek as you suggested, but I suspect the alternative theories, cited or not, will not be appreciated. Piledhighandeep (talk) 19:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

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WP:BRD

Please read WP:BRD. You were WP:BOLD, I WP:REVERTed you, and it is up to you to Discuss for WP:CONSENSUS, not for me, however I have opened the discussion. You are welcome to join it. Elizium23 (talk) 22:42, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I've joined the discussion. Piledhighandeep (talk) 21:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Catholic Church Article

I've noticed you've put a lot of time into the Catholic Church article adding info about what the Orthodox Church thinks about the Roman Catholic claims. Although your information and sources seems to be fine, the reason it's been reverted multiple times is because way you're presenting the information seems to be in violation of WP:POV. Putting information like "The Catholic churhc claims blah blah blah, but other people say opposite of blah blah blah" in the lead of the article is confusing to people who aren't familiar with the complicated history of the two churches. I think the best solution to this problem is for you to pour your passion for this issue into writing a new section for this article (maybe under the history section?) about their intertwined history. Luthien22 (talk) 23:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. The Assyrian Church of the East, Orthodox Church, and other oriental churches aren't much of a passion, so I'm not sure I'd put an entire section together, but I did notice that much of the Catholic Church history intro section was Catholic doctrine (or at least the Catholic Church's view of its history). I'm an NPOV enthusiast, so I thought a counterpoint, if the Catholic viewpoint was to be left as history, should be presented. I thought the counterpoint should include the other churches' views as well as secular historian's views. Piledhighandeep (talk) 23:31, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, thank you for explaining to me the rough edges of my edits. I appreciate it. Piledhighandeep (talk) 23:38, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome! I noticed the discussion you've got going on the talk page, so that should (hopefully) take care of the issue. Glad I could help. Luthien22 (talk) 17:48, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Piledhighandeep, that Chatholic Church and subsequent history of it articles are biased in favor of the Roman Catholic POV. I'm not against presenting this in the article, but it should be made clear that this is virtually exclusively their own point of view, which is in dispute for a number of reasons. My personal point of view is: Peter was not the "first pope", he wasn't even the bishop of Rome, Roman Chatholic Church =/= Catholic Church, the Catholic Church emerged in a historical process AFTER it was legalized and made official religion in the Roman empire, Papacy was also emerging as part of a process, it's difficult to say who the first pope was, but most likely someone after --41.151.54.5 (talk) 21:33, 2 August 2016 (UTC)legalization. Of course this all needs to be sourced, before it gets into the article. --41.151.54.5 (talk) 21:33, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

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Halloween cheer!

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History section

I was wondering about the article Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem in accordance with Galatians 4:26 as to what kind of weight that would hold as a Historicity. LoveMonkey 13:54, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Barn Star!

		The Christianity Barnstar
		For contributions to a fair and thorough early history section at Catholic Church#Apostolic era and papacy! --Zfish118 (talk) 17:59, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

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Zen and Bodhidharma

I'm impressed. What's your research-area? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:12, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi, User:Joshua Jonathan, thanks! I don't want to get too specific on research, because I'm not sure how much identifying info I should put out here on my Talk page, but it is historically related. Piledhighandeep (talk) 03:54, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

As little as possible. Wikipedia may interferere with your research-career. it may be a good medium to share knowledge; it also may be a good medium tot do a "pre-search", "try-out" a topic - but what if you write a journal article on the same topic, and some critic says, "Hey, you copied it from Wikipedia!" Not really good for your career... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:53, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

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Bogomilism

I noticed you added information to this article.[2] Could you please add references for this information. Thanks. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:59, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi, User:Kansas Bear, thanks for giving me a heads up! I've added citations. Piledhighandeep (talk) 06:49, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Map of Greek dialects

I'd initiated a discussion in talk:Byzantine Empire more than a day ago.Alexikoua (talk) 13:44, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Piledhighandeep (talk) 18:51, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Re: Cuisine of Hawaii

(Eastern v. Western applies oversimplified terminology from Europe that makes no sense in Hawaii (East of Hawaii is "Western cuisine", West of Hawaii is "Eastern cuisine") and isn't really necessary anyway because the influence are already spelled out)

Actually, what makes no sense is your edit and subsequent edit summary reproduced above. What do the terms Eastern and Western cuisine have to do with the geographical location of Hawaii? Nothing, of course. Why would the terms change just because we are talking about cuisine of Hawaii? Of course they wouldn't. So your removal makes no sense. Viriditas (talk) 03:08, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Viriditas, East - West terminology is used less and less in history today, because it is anachronistic, dating to a time when Europe was the 'center' of the world, and because it is overly general and often inaccurate. Originally Eastern meant the modern countries of Turkey, Syria, Egypt, and Iran (cf. Roman Asia). Now Asia and Eastern often refer to China and neighboring regions. Applying "Eastern" to include the cuisine of Polynesia is non-standard and this area is a major contributor to Hawaiian cuisine. I see there was a concern about this terminology on the Talk page, but I don't think I'm concerned for the same reasons as that user was. Perhaps, if you tell me what you think is lost when the East West phrase is deleted we can find a way to retain the emphasis you want while using different terminology. Anyway, I'm new to the cuisine of Hawaii page, so I do appreciate you helping me understand what is going on on the article. I apologize if my first edits look like a 'bull in a China shop.' Thanks! Piledhighandeep (talk) 03:19, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

You are reading it wrong. The term is not being used to refer to Polynesian cuisine. And it wasn't being used in the historical sense, it was being used in the culinary sense, which is still in wide currency given the literature. Viriditas (talk) 03:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

If it does not include Polynesian cuisine, are you saying that Polynesian food influences are not found in the " 'local food' style unique to Hawaii"? It is also used less and less in a geographic and cultural sense, which is what the culinary sense derives from. I just thought, since the influences were specifically spelled out in the preceding sentence, the phrase wasn't needed anyway. Is it important? Piledhighandeep (talk) 03:31, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

In this context, it doesn't refer to Polynesian cuisine, it refers to local food, which is built on top of the Polynesian cuisine influence. I suppose a good East-West example would be, for example, spam musubi. I'm not going to get too uptight about your change since it simplified the intended meaning and eliminated ambiguity, and that's a good thing, but I may revisit it when I have more time. Viriditas (talk) 03:49, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Your experience with Wikipedia so far

Hello Piledhighandeep,

I am conducting research about newcomers to Wikipedia and I was hoping to ask you some questions. I’ve noticed you’ve had some good activity recently. Is there any chance you have time in the next month to speak with me? If you are interested or have any questions, please email me at gmugar [at] syr.edu or leave a message on my talk page.

I hope to be in touch soon,

Gabrielm199 (talk) 23:41, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Sure. Happy to help a fellow student! Piledhighandeep (talk) 23:22, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

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Therapeutae

Hi! Thanks for your edit to Therapeutae in December. I wonder if we're interested in the same areas - heterodox ascetic groups - because I notice you also added information to Bogomilism.

Unfortunately (and annoyingly, because WP:NPOV notwithstanding I'd quite like it to be true) I couldn't find anything about Buddhist graves in Ptolemaic Egypt in the reference you give (Tarn). Given an existing talk page decision to move a previous section about the postulated Buddhist link over (even though IMHO the previous section was rather more challenge-able than yours) I moved your section to talk:Therapeutae too.

If there's a WP:RS, let's have a chat about it on talk:Therapeutae. Ian McDonald (talk) 22:27, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I think we do share an interest! The reference is there in Tarn, but hard to see, since it is a footnote.

See footnote 1 at the bottom of Tarn page 370 (linked below via Google books).

The Greeks in Bactria and India, Tarn, Cambridge University Press, 1966

Also, see Tarn's Antigonos Gonatas, p. 337 and note 1262 here for context.

Piledhighandeep (talk) 07:12, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

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Help with dispute resolution

Hi Piledhighanddeep,

I am involved in a [dispute], regarding in part how to neutrally represent the founder of the Catholic Church. I was wondering you could review the infobox on the Catholic Church article and give me an outside opinion as to whether this is worth pursuing. Thank you. --Zfish118 (talk) 18:16, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

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Pekmez merger

Please take a look at Talk:Pekmez. I got to the discussion a bit late, but... I agree with you. --Macrakis (talk) 04:11, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

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I just forwarded the permissions to permissions-en@wikimedia.org. Thanks! Piledhighandeep (talk) 20:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

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Sure enough. I am the author of some, but not all of this, so I should have put the attribution. Thank you for taking care of this, will do next time. Piledhighandeep (talk) 17:09, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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Hello! Voting in the 2021 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 6 December 2021. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2021 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:39, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Requesting some article expansion help

Greetings,

Requesting your visit to Draft:Intellectual discourse over re-mosqueing of Hagia Sophia and article expansion help if you find your interest in the topic.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:19, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

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Hello! Voting in the 2022 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 12 December 2022. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

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