User talk:Nableezy/Franz Baermann Steiner
Latest comment: 14 years ago by Nableezy in topic Categories
Franz | |
|---|---|
 Photograph of Franz taken in 1906 | |
| Occupation | Anthropologist, lyric poet |
| Language | German, Czech |
| Nationality | Bohemian (Austria–Hungary) |
| Genre | Truth, Anthropology |
| Literary movement | Functionalism |
| Notable works | Taboo |
party and bullshit edit
What else Nab, but thanks. You're a real trooper.Nishidani (talk) 10:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry but how can you prove that Franz is a proper name? Just because a few people have called him that, it doesn't make it a proper noun. And I don't want to see any German or Czech sources you have. This is Wikipedia dot EN, speak English. Or at the very least you should write it as "franz Baermann Steiner" with a lower-case F. --JGGardiner (talk) 10:05, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- And it could use a picture. --JGGardiner (talk) 10:05, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Aargh, Fuck!, oops, I mean 'fuck!'. No, hang on a min. No sooner asked for, than done. We're anything but ineffishent in here.Nishidani (talk) 13:18, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- The only thing close to a usable pic I have seen is the cover of Zivilisation und Gefahr which you can see here. The pic does not have to be free use, we can claim fair use. But this is kind of artsy and I would rather get a real picture. Also, this from the Institute of Germanic Studies might be useful, but I cant find the full text anywhere, even JSTOR. nableezy - 20:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
And I just saw the "Influenced" section of the infobox, thats just great. nableezy - 20:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Anyone not knowing our huge repute for seriousness on Wikipedia is going to take one look at this conversation, and refuse to assist the Three Stooges we must crack up to be at first sight. It's all Gardiner's fault, I reckon, for provoking me to muss up on Franz by asking for that justification for proper Names. He should be banned from wikipedia like you and me. That would give him more time to collaborate in here, as we two do. Nishidani (talk) 21:18, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, very cute. My only concern is that such a good infobox obviates the need for all those sentences in the article. An article does have the advantage of space for photos or perhaps a chart. Have you thought about putting secondary pictures in there?
And I should say that I only edit Wikipedia when I am busy enough to need a distraction but not so busy that I can't afford to have one. --JGGardiner (talk) 22:59, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, very cute. My only concern is that such a good infobox obviates the need for all those sentences in the article. An article does have the advantage of space for photos or perhaps a chart. Have you thought about putting secondary pictures in there?
Back on point, as JGG is apparently incapable of providing even the slightest bit of assistance for writing a page that was, at least partially, his idea, there are some pictures of Steiner in Taboo, truth, and religion. Pick one from here. I think Fig. 5, 7, 12, or 13 would be fine (i think 12 is the best). nableezy - 23:59, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- ive got 12 cropped and ready to upload, but have to wait until the article gets moved in the mainspace as it would just be deleted as an orphaned non-free image. If yall want a different one let me know. I dont expect Nishidani to have the technical ability to hit Print Screen and crop the image and I think JGG has already proven his "usefulness" indeed has its bounds. nableezy - 00:06, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'm flattered that you noticed that I was the muse which provided the spark of inspiration to have this article created. But back to the pictures, I was actually going to suggest one of those when Nishidani first asked for a picture. 12 does look to best the best but I noticed that one is owned by the von Motesiczky charitable trust. They do have website but I don't know if they would want to help us. Most of the others are owned by Adler himself. So maybe if the most charming of us (Nish?) asked, we could get permission to use one of them from him. There's also a pretty decent one on page 31 of this Mary Douglas biography also by Fardon.[1] It also says that Evans-Pritchard had embelished a story by saying that the refugee franz was able to support himself by playing table tennis (p.31). That would have been a good DYK hook.
And why are you waiting for the article to go live? I think it is good enough to survive a speedy deletion. --JGGardiner (talk) 01:57, 26 November 2009 (UTC)- Son, we dont need permission from them chumps, we do what we want. Any one of those pics would be fair use, and it would also allow the copyright holder to retain their copyright, they would have to release the pic under cc or some other free use license to "give permission" for its use. This way is better for all involved. And dont ever again link a *.ca address, *.co.uk is acceptable but using *.ca is letting the terrorists win. nableezy - 02:08, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'm flattered that you noticed that I was the muse which provided the spark of inspiration to have this article created. But back to the pictures, I was actually going to suggest one of those when Nishidani first asked for a picture. 12 does look to best the best but I noticed that one is owned by the von Motesiczky charitable trust. They do have website but I don't know if they would want to help us. Most of the others are owned by Adler himself. So maybe if the most charming of us (Nish?) asked, we could get permission to use one of them from him. There's also a pretty decent one on page 31 of this Mary Douglas biography also by Fardon.[1] It also says that Evans-Pritchard had embelished a story by saying that the refugee franz was able to support himself by playing table tennis (p.31). That would have been a good DYK hook.
- Me charming? Now that's really offensive. I have only been called that once in my life, by a girl in Osaka with halitosis, who wooed me vigorously, after encountering me reading an obscure book on anthropology in a suburban train. She tracked down my residence and sent me letters every day addressed to her "charming prince". I noted the literary allusion, and its confusion with anime, and laid low for a few weeks to avoid complications. Nishidani (talk) 08:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't think the joke I put in here re Franz (Kafka) and Franz (Steiner) would be taken seriously. It was in reply the JGG's point about lower and upper case Franz/franz, and the trivia was included to ironize. I guess I'd better check it more thoroughly, but I see NS100 has begun to. I couldn't even manage to get the birth and death dates right in manipulating the Franz Kafka template, but thought, since it's a joke, who gives an eff? Sorry for any confusion re this.Nishidani (talk) 11:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
- I tried to just keep the stuff that was right, hope I did not screw up too much. Ill be going through rearranging the text to look like more of a standard bio after the game tonight. nableezy - 01:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't think the joke I put in here re Franz (Kafka) and Franz (Steiner) would be taken seriously. It was in reply the JGG's point about lower and upper case Franz/franz, and the trivia was included to ironize. I guess I'd better check it more thoroughly, but I see NS100 has begun to. I couldn't even manage to get the birth and death dates right in manipulating the Franz Kafka template, but thought, since it's a joke, who gives an eff? Sorry for any confusion re this.Nishidani (talk) 11:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
- Me charming? Now that's really offensive. I have only been called that once in my life, by a girl in Osaka with halitosis, who wooed me vigorously, after encountering me reading an obscure book on anthropology in a suburban train. She tracked down my residence and sent me letters every day addressed to her "charming prince". I noted the literary allusion, and its confusion with anime, and laid low for a few weeks to avoid complications. Nishidani (talk) 08:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
This is looking good enough for the mainspace, so unless yall want to fix it up more Ill be moving it over later on today (without this talk page, unless of course Nishi would care to further expound on his lack of charm in the main Talk namespace) nableezy - 15:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think I can swear on the Tanakh that JGGardiner said he'd bear the huge workload of lifting up this weighty text onto his shoulders and hauling it over to the mainspace, Nab. I think you're bearing far too much of our collective burden as it is. Give him time to stir from the barca-lounger, shrug off the i-Pod headset and its heavy metal rhythms, and, toiling like Samson with the gates of Gaza, heft the damned thing East to mainspace. Canucks are irritated enough about being left out when people talk of (North) America, without us risking leaving him out of the picture with this particular business, perhaps the most important move of all?Nishidani (talk) 16:05, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think you know that to depend on Canada is to accept defeat. nableezy - 16:21, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not depending on Canada. I have great confidence in people in either Calgary or Vancouver. Personal experience tells me they never let you down. But of course if he does, I do have contacts in the Vancouver mental health care system if he defaults, and of course, living in Italy, getting favours from the Mafia, with their tentacular global reach, for further persuasion of a kind less charming than my own, would not be out of the question. But I am, unlike you, an infidel with great faith. Patience, son! Nishidani (talk) 16:41, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالْحَقِّ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالصَّبْرِ
Or, in the language of the infidels:
Al-Asr verse 3, giving the exceptions to verse 2 which reads Verily Man is in loss. While you may be an infidel, you most certainly do good, enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience. We'll just forget about the believing part for now. nableezy - 16:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.
- I'm not depending on Canada. I have great confidence in people in either Calgary or Vancouver. Personal experience tells me they never let you down. But of course if he does, I do have contacts in the Vancouver mental health care system if he defaults, and of course, living in Italy, getting favours from the Mafia, with their tentacular global reach, for further persuasion of a kind less charming than my own, would not be out of the question. But I am, unlike you, an infidel with great faith. Patience, son! Nishidani (talk) 16:41, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think you know that to depend on Canada is to accept defeat. nableezy - 16:21, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think I can swear on the Tanakh that JGGardiner said he'd bear the huge workload of lifting up this weighty text onto his shoulders and hauling it over to the mainspace, Nab. I think you're bearing far too much of our collective burden as it is. Give him time to stir from the barca-lounger, shrug off the i-Pod headset and its heavy metal rhythms, and, toiling like Samson with the gates of Gaza, heft the damned thing East to mainspace. Canucks are irritated enough about being left out when people talk of (North) America, without us risking leaving him out of the picture with this particular business, perhaps the most important move of all?Nishidani (talk) 16:05, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
New bit edit
I chucked in a rapid thumbnail sketch of Steiner's central emphasis, which proved so important an influence on people like Gellner, Douglas and Lienhardt later. I haven't checked the secondary sources, and anyone is welcome to erase this paraphrase as a violation of WP:OR, if they dislike it, or the editor.Nishidani (talk) 15:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
murdoch and steiner edit
Nishi, you sure you want to keep the line on Steiner being the likely inspiration for Saward as part of the footnote? nableezy - 16:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Answered somewhere here. We already mentioned Conradi's thesis below. I just wanted to highlight the fact that Franz Steiner uses the analogy of a bilingual in his 1956 text, and Murdoch in her novel of that year then has a Franz Steiner type (Saward) prepossessed by the need for a bilingual. Perhaps it's a coincidence, it's certainly WP:OR, but, suitably phrased as two independent facts, it can be surely retained in the note to the passage from 'Taboo' dealing with Steiner's bilingual analogy.Nishidani (talk) 16:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- All right, but I am going to format it as a note (like the note in al-Azhar Mosque on it being the oldest mosque in Cairo, see Al-Azhar Mosque#endnote oldest. Cant have you fuckin up my footnotes section. nableezy - 16:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I never quite recovered socially from a cousin telling a few dozen of the clan, with devastating insight, that whenever I crack a joke, it needs my usual footnoting. Once you understand the footnote, the place rocks with laughter. But it takes me far longer to explain in a footnote than to tell the joke. A problem, like menstrual cycles, of rhythm. But you can't win'em all.Nishidani (talk) 16:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- All right, but I am going to format it as a note (like the note in al-Azhar Mosque on it being the oldest mosque in Cairo, see Al-Azhar Mosque#endnote oldest. Cant have you fuckin up my footnotes section. nableezy - 16:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Answered somewhere here. We already mentioned Conradi's thesis below. I just wanted to highlight the fact that Franz Steiner uses the analogy of a bilingual in his 1956 text, and Murdoch in her novel of that year then has a Franz Steiner type (Saward) prepossessed by the need for a bilingual. Perhaps it's a coincidence, it's certainly WP:OR, but, suitably phrased as two independent facts, it can be surely retained in the note to the passage from 'Taboo' dealing with Steiner's bilingual analogy.Nishidani (talk) 16:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
The footnote now contains its own footnote. Doesnt seem like the best way to do things. Nishi, is Taboo, truth, etc. supposed to be Steiner, Douglas; Taboo, truth and religion, Volumes 1-2 Berghahn Books, 1999? nableezy - 19:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Murdoch in note edit
Actually, just to be precise, I went back and read 4 of Irish Murdoch's novels last week, to check out Conradi's argument. Peter Saward certainly has traits one associates with Steiner, but the book is dedicated to that other research fiend, Elias Canetti (about whom the page needs a distinct section, but I've lost my copy of the relevant memoir by Canetti and will have to repurchase it), and many details about Saward fit Canetti better (like the thick bushy hair). In any case, the point of the note is to gloss 'bilingual', as one possible hint that Murdoch was alluding to Steiner in having Saward puzzle over an ancient undeciphered language. The vignette is quite funny, because she has him thinking of it as possibly an ancient Mongolian dialect, pretty clumsy, unless ironically meant, when speaking of Near Eastern languages.Nishidani (talk) 16:25, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Categories edit
I think the categories at page bottom are supposed to be boxed. Is there a pugilist techie who can floor this one?Nishidani (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I did that, while it is in userspace it should not be in any categories so I just have them linked for now; once we move it over Ill make them actual categories again. nableezy - 16:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- we move it over? I refuse to have anything to do with it. JGGardiner has the whole wiki universe, from Zeq to Jimbo Wales in suspense about his hypothetical role in the seismic shift, and that means you have appropriated the plural of majesty here. Sheikh Nabster, give the guy a shekel (T.S.Eliot allusion) and he'll do it, though I've heckled him, and he may have his hackles up.Nishidani (talk) 16:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Nah, I don't even have any hackles at all. But I didn't say that I would move the article. I just asked Nab why he was taking so long. That's how I get things done -- I complain and someone else does the heavy lifting. That model has proven its effectiveness. And don't forget that I'm going to be labouring on this article long after you're both perma-banned. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- But speaking of categories, I notice that we have franz in German-Jews. But I saw in the Franz (Kafka) article that there is a Category:Czech-Austrian Jews and apparently also a Category:Czech-German Jews. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I'll be a onkey's muncle. I'm perma-banned from the I/P area and, by the looks of the Jonathan Cook transgression, will soon be perma-frozen, and, abominably snowed men can't shift weights without cracking under the strain. Nab, subcommandante of the Nishidani branch of al-Qaeda jihadis on wikipaedia, is fettered by sanctions slightly less grisly than those used at Guantanamo, but can move somewhat, but not enough to risk a permanent hemarroidal hernia or implosion of those ganja-greening lungs of his. No one, JGG, can force a chap to do the decent thing. One can, well I'm half Italian, ply some moolah, push an incentive, tickle the table with a bit of payola, and get the decent thing done, if indecently. Let's put it this way. If you do, purely out of the good of your heart, actually tire of your company in here, and, dropping all immediate social duties, actually lift this with one huge heft, over to mainspace, I promise I will produce a rhymed sonnet, either on the effort, or on any theme of your choosing, within a day, which will be signed over to your copyright, which you may sell on eBay for a fortune whenever the financial crunch ruins the world property market, and canny investors pour huge bundles of dough into artwork as a safe dodge to avoid deflationary losses on their capital? Nishidani (talk) 20:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- But speaking of categories, I notice that we have franz in German-Jews. But I saw in the Franz (Kafka) article that there is a Category:Czech-Austrian Jews and apparently also a Category:Czech-German Jews. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Nah, I don't even have any hackles at all. But I didn't say that I would move the article. I just asked Nab why he was taking so long. That's how I get things done -- I complain and someone else does the heavy lifting. That model has proven its effectiveness. And don't forget that I'm going to be labouring on this article long after you're both perma-banned. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, you've blown it, Nab. Reading that might well induce JGG on reasonable grounds of taste and euphony to decline a bum deal, a virtual screed of euphuistic shortschrift in exchange for potential spinal collapse from lugging this massive piece of erudition over digital corridors full of Riemannian marigolds and Whale tensors, booby-trapped with all sorts of predatorial ghouls until he warps through to mainspace. It's a sham-manic argonautica of heroic proportions he is asked to undertake, for a mere poetaster's pittance of punkpenny rhymes. I reckon he'll start to twig there's a rort here, and will up the ante?Nishidani (talk) 21:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think that Nableezy was trying to show me that I don't want to be on your bad side. So I will move the article. I would have done it earlier but I was just letting Nab get his edit count up for when applies to be an admin. But it will have to wait until this evening because I'm just off now to take my dog to the vet. --JGGardiner (talk) 21:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Before you move it, we need to make sure that this talk page does not get moved with it. Prior to moving the article to Franz Baermann Steiner make a new page at Talk:Franz Baermann Steiner and make 2 edits there so that you cannot move this over that. No need to show the rest of wiki what goes on in the caves of Tora Bora. nableezy - 21:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Nab, I think we should drop it for today. If JGG has a dog to take to a vet, that trumps everything else. Too many memories. Hope the pooch's just in for a regular check-up. We can muck around still for a day or a week. JGG will see to it, as private circs, and his canine pal's health, allow, I'm sure you'll agree.Nishidani (talk) 21:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- No doubt, was talking about when he gets back. You have to spell things out for the Canuckistanis, or else you get hockey when you tell them how to play football. nableezy - 21:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- And with gippos you get hookahs when you tell them how to play footsie!!!Nishidani (talk) 21:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- A sheesha makes everything better. Especially when they make it "special". nableezy - 21:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- And if I can insult everyone, what you guys call hookey or football is just a pansy act, with all that protective gear teams wear on both sides of the border. Now rugby or Australian rules football, that's football.Nishidani (talk) 21:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, ok. Obviously the sport of pansies. nableezy - 21:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Looked. and heard a lot of mesh bending, cotton absorbing thumps. It's a bit like sex with prophylactics made out of rubber tires, by the looks of it.Nishidani (talk) 21:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- If that wasnt so funny we would be having more than just words right now. nableezy - 21:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe I read that wrong but it kind of makes it sound like you want to have sex with Nish. Anyway, my dog is okay. Thanks for the concern. It wasn't routine but it also wasn't serious. Although the worry with dogs is always that it might be.
Nab's instructions actually did confuse me. I was just going to create a new article and then copy this one there. I didn't think that I could move one of Nableezy's personal pages anyway. So this talk page wouldn't go there, right? --JGGardiner (talk) 02:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)- In response to the above I can only say that I hope your dog is less stag-like than you (I cant remember the pictures but you probably do). But you should not do cut and paste moves, you need to keep the history of the page for the copyright info. You can move across namespaces, but I tried to move a page without the talk page before by using the check mark and it did not work, so the only way I know to make sure that when you actually use move page is to make a new talk page. Matter fact, you wont understand what I am talking aboot, Ill just do it. Sorry Nishi, patience just aint in my blood. nableezy - 02:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe I read that wrong but it kind of makes it sound like you want to have sex with Nish. Anyway, my dog is okay. Thanks for the concern. It wasn't routine but it also wasn't serious. Although the worry with dogs is always that it might be.
- If that wasnt so funny we would be having more than just words right now. nableezy - 21:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think that Nableezy was trying to show me that I don't want to be on your bad side. So I will move the article. I would have done it earlier but I was just letting Nab get his edit count up for when applies to be an admin. But it will have to wait until this evening because I'm just off now to take my dog to the vet. --JGGardiner (talk) 21:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- we move it over? I refuse to have anything to do with it. JGGardiner has the whole wiki universe, from Zeq to Jimbo Wales in suspense about his hypothetical role in the seismic shift, and that means you have appropriated the plural of majesty here. Sheikh Nabster, give the guy a shekel (T.S.Eliot allusion) and he'll do it, though I've heckled him, and he may have his hackles up.Nishidani (talk) 16:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
All done. Now the question is do we delete this page or leave a historical record of the intellectual might displayed here by each of us? nableezy - 03:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- If I get this right JGG expressed the will and intention of moving this into manspace but technical difficulties arose, and Nab then, on purely formal grounds, undertook the virtual helf act. Now, in CFhristian theology at least, intention is equivalent to action, as in the yarn about the adulterous woman's lapidation. There, though Nab may have actually shifted the page, JGGardiner must be credited with also shifting it, given the clear and undisputable willingness to do so he provided. So that part of the work gets dual credit. I think the page could be preserved as proof that he ranks here as a work-page to mainspace shit-shifter, up there with the rest of the removalists who specialize in that delicate art? Perhaps we can openj up a discussion on this by having a vivacious, excruciatingly intense AfD discussion, roping in every sockpuppet that would be interested in wiping it out?Nishidani (talk) 08:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Im actually interested in wiping it out, but if either of you two wish to keep it that is fine by me. nableezy - 22:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- If I get this right JGG expressed the will and intention of moving this into manspace but technical difficulties arose, and Nab then, on purely formal grounds, undertook the virtual helf act. Now, in CFhristian theology at least, intention is equivalent to action, as in the yarn about the adulterous woman's lapidation. There, though Nab may have actually shifted the page, JGGardiner must be credited with also shifting it, given the clear and undisputable willingness to do so he provided. So that part of the work gets dual credit. I think the page could be preserved as proof that he ranks here as a work-page to mainspace shit-shifter, up there with the rest of the removalists who specialize in that delicate art? Perhaps we can openj up a discussion on this by having a vivacious, excruciatingly intense AfD discussion, roping in every sockpuppet that would be interested in wiping it out?Nishidani (talk) 08:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
one more note here edit
p xx of Existentialists and Mystics: Writings on Philosophy and Literature contains the following passage:
the poet and anthropologist Franz Baermann Steiner, a gentle, sholarly Czech-Jewish refugee from Prague, a poet and antropologist, never recovered from the deaths in a concentration camp of the parents he left behind
Fits with the Murdoch quote, but dont know how best to phrase it. nableezy - 03:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- This is from the editor's preface by Peter Conradi who also calls him one of "Hitler's victims". nableezy - 03:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- bang that in as a second ref to the Murdochy quote. Adds weight. Sorry for all the work or headaches my messiness has given you guys.Nishidani (talk) 08:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- No apologies necessary. And if either of you have any ideas for a DYK hook see Template_talk:Did you know#Franz Baermann Steiner. The one I suggested was:
Could also have one about his thesis being lost in the train. nableezy - 21:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)... that Franz Baermann Steiner, whose parents were murdered in Treblinka and later died of a heart attack in 1952 in Oxford, was called "one of Hitler's victims" by Iris Murdoch?
- No apologies necessary. And if either of you have any ideas for a DYK hook see Template_talk:Did you know#Franz Baermann Steiner. The one I suggested was:
- bang that in as a second ref to the Murdochy quote. Adds weight. Sorry for all the work or headaches my messiness has given you guys.Nishidani (talk) 08:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)