N.i

Thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked (Guts Frisbee), and it has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day. Nationalparks 20:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Lion and Marsupial lion

Hi there! Sorry that I keep removing your additions to lion, but I just think that the article should limit itself to discussing Panthera leo. One article simply can't do justice to lions, marsupial lions, and sea lions all at the same time. Readers can still find the article via Lion (disambiguation) linked to at the top of the page. — Laura Scudder ☎ 23:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Repeatedly reinserting the section without discussion is not productive. I'd be happy to talk about why marsupial lions might or might not belong in the Lion article at Talk:Lion. — Laura Scudder ☎ 15:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi! You are right marsupials lions not the present lions (Panthera leo), but they are externally similar to them. For an example a marsupial the wolf too the artificial wolf, but it is similar externally to ordinary wolves and everywhere in clauses about wolves about them write. And one more example Thylacosmilus - marsupial a saber-toothed cat also an artificial saber-toothed cat, but in all clauses about saber-toothed cats write also them. Therefore I think for the general knowledge they this should be in an article on p. leo. Thanks for your attention!--N.i 19:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Your reasoning for including marsupial lions on the page is not scientific. 'They are externally similar to them' isn't even that true. Here's a couple of images.

http://www.naracoortecaves.sa.gov.au/images/flinwe27.jpg

http://virtual.yosemite.cc.ca.us/ghayes/images/DSC03916%20Thylacoleo%20Marsupial%20lion%20b.JPG

They are no more similar than any other big cat. If you think it is so essential that people visiting the page need to know completely different animals share a word in their name, then at most link the already existing article in the 'see also' section. The fact it's in the taxonomy section alone is a joke. --Tommyknocker 13:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree it shoudl not belong in the taxonomy section, and I will remove it there. The article is on the Lion (Panthera leo), not any other species. As told here before, the marsupial lion is mentioned in the "see also" section and on the Lion (disambiguation) page. Peter Maas 10:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Barbary Lion

Thank you for your additions on the lion(subspecies). I have only one remark. You changed the text, claiming that the Barbary lion is extinct in the wild, not extinct. This year there has been found a genetic marker to identify Barbary lions (which has been proved to be a valid subspecies) from the maternal line (female line). Five specimens of the famous "Barbary lions" from the collection of the Moroccan King were tested, and results showed that they were NOT maternally Barbary. Therefor it cannot be claimed that these lions are Barbary or that their descendents are. In the past scientists believed that"the "distinct" subspecific status of the Barbary lion could be justified by their seemingly fixed external morphology. This morphology was used to identify them. However, now it is known that various extrinsic factors influence the colour and size of a lion’s mane, like the ambient temperature. The cooler ambient temperature in e.g. European and North American zoos can result in heavy mane. Therefore, the heave mane is an inappropriate marker for identifying Barbary lines. Some captive lions might (and I hope) be proven to be true Barbary lions or hybrid descendants from. It is now possible test them genetically from the female line (it is not yet possible from the male line). For now it is smart for zoos to keep the possible Barbary lions in a separare breeding lion, just in case they prove to be Barbary after future testing. As there is no genetic evidence that it survives it is best to give them the status "extinct" in Wikipedia. Peter Maas 09:51, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

One other thing. The scientific name of the Barbary lion is: Panthera leo leo, not Panthera leo berberisca. Panthera leo berberisca is an invalid synonym of Panthera leo leo. Peter Maas 09:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Please stop changing the article with saying that it is "extinct in the wild" and not "extinct". I will keep on reverting it each time. Your justification for changing it was "There is no proof too Barbary lion is totaly extinct". No proof of any surviving Barbary lion proves itself that it is extinct! And the 50 year treshold for declaring a species or subspecies extinct has been passed.Peter Maas 12:23, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Most zoos, parks and institution that claim to have Barbary lions do that because their lions have large manes. This has proven scientifically that this can appear in more lion subspecies in captivity, caused by for example the ambient temperature. Zoos, parks and institutions that claim to have Barbary lions because they are decendents of the famous Moroccan lions, are the most possible ones. Only the sad thing is that the first five tested proved not to be Barbary Lions from the maternal line. So if the rest are not either, the decendents can never be pure Barbary lions either. As most lions in zoos, etc. they have been cross-bred over the years with lion subspecies or populations. Peter Maas 12:23, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Just to inform you: I've recieved an email from Dr Nobuyuki Yamaguchi (Wildlife Conservation Research Unit Oxford University, Department of Zoology). He does a lot of research to the Barbary lion (he is the (co-)author of the most recent scientific articles). This is what he says: "Based on the best knowledge available at the moment, I would say they have become extinct at least in the wild. If one would carry out a worldwide survey on the genetic characteristics of captive lions, the answer may be changed. Also, the concept of conservation of lion genetic diversity may also change the concept of extinction in the future." Do you have a problem with changing it into: "The Barbary Lion, Atlas lion or Nubian lion Panthera leo leo is a subspecies of lion that has become extinct at least in the wild." Please respond this time on the talk pages. Peter Maas 15:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

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