Marat123

Lak history

Hello, and welcome.

I have created a page, History of the Lak people for an extensive coverage of their history, as is being added to the Lak people page. You don't mind, right? This way, the Lak people page can be used (appropriately) to deal with not only their history (in an abbreviated form, with a link to the history page) but also ethnic features, physical characteristics, and other characteristics about the Laks themselves, not only their history. So, generally, the history for the most part will be moved to the history page. I think (you can discuss this if you wish) the stuff we should leave on the Lak page should be primarily the history that shaped them or the world's view of them as a people and their origins, and the rest should be removed. Everything, of course, should be on the history page, I think. Do you have any objections or things to discuss, etc? --Yalens (talk) 16:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

It's allright. Thank you very much for correction, they were appropriate. (Marat)

Ah... it seems you dont' know the standard procedure for signing comments. There is a signature button at the top of the editing window, with cursive writing as its logo (if you don't know what cursive script looks like, its between the thick black horizontal line and the slashed out W). Otherwise, you can type in the following for signatures: --~~~~ (it doesn't turn into the signature because I used the nowiki tool here). Also, one generally indent a reply one level than the message you are replying to. To indent, each level is a colon (:).--Yalens (talk) 15:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Avar Sarir vs. Lak Sarir

I suppose this is always a thorny issue for my viewing the page... I've always been told that Sarir was an Avar-run state, and there is plenty of publications that support this. Furthermore, Sarir briefly conquered us (stupid idea, we don't treat foreign rulers with compassion exactly), and Chechen history always said it was the Avars who conquered us. We even name all Dagestanis as Avars (we give them the same name, and non-Avar Dagestanis get their respective names), because the Avars were for a really long time the only Dagestani people we knew of.

I don't know about Lak Sarir, but it is it still impossible that there could be two Sarirs, a Lak Sarir and an Avar Sarir, that were mistaken by ignorant Arabs to be the same state...? Because from what you say it seems like there was a Lak Sarir too, but I"m pretty sure that there was once an Avar kingdom called Sarir as well...--Yalens (talk) 12:58, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Shrinking Page

The Lak history page is now 1/7th of its length a couple months ago... I have not looked carefully at what you've been deleting, but I wanted to tell you that having a large amount of info is not bad, because you can always just split it into new pages branching off from the old one. It would make sense if its questionable info that you're deleting it.... I have not looked carefully. Would you care to tell me what you've been deleting? --Yalens (talk) 16:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is the comparison, to show all of the stuff that's been deleted (6/7ths of the page!): http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_Lak_people&action=historysubmit&diff=396327034&oldid=375023918 ...

Please don't delete all that you spent so much time writing. Wikipedia could use it. If the page seems too big... just make new pages. Now, granted, there is some stuff here that is a bit "uhh" that sounded to me like Lak chauvinism... but there's also a lot of good info...Should I help you divide it up into new pages?--Yalens (talk) 16:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Yalens, I understand very well what you mean. I write the English version of Lak history according to what I write in the Russian version, so it’s a direct translation of it. I faced a problem in the Russian version from the so called Lezgins, the inhabitants of Kura region of Southern Dagestan. The Lezgins claim, as I consider ridiculously, that the Kingdom of Lakz was their Lezgin Kingdom, not of Lak people (Laks). They refer to Russian historians who wrote some material where they, in pursuit of the origin of the name “Lezgin”, state that the name Lezgin was derived from Arabic “Lakz”, mentioned by Arab historians like Al-Masudi and some others. As such the Lezgins say it was referring to them not to Laks as the territories of that Lakz kingdom mentioned, included their territory. And then they say it was Arabic “Lakzi” referring to them, which later chaned into “Lazki” and they mean “Lazgi”. I had a strong discussion with these so called Lezgins in Russian version. The administrator supported these Lezgins as they presented the writings of these Russian historians and as the Lezgins requested the administrator to delete Kingdom of Lakz, as well as the history of Albania from the Lak history page, the administrators deleted them. Then the Avars too, state that Serir kingdom was theirs. Marat123 (talk) 16:23, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

However, historical records of Dagestan do not mention any such names of Dagestani principalities as Lakz or Serir, so I avoid the writings of Arab historian and refer only to historical records of Dagestan where the history of Shamkhal state begins from 8th century. In fact, Shamkhal of Laks in 8th century possessed all the lands of these so called Lezgins in southern Dagetan and it is cleary stated in historical records of Dagestan like Derbent-Chronicle or Derbent-Neme and Tarikh Dagestan. But these Lezgins refer only to Arab sources without referring to historical records of Dagestan. Whereas I used the writings of Arab historians to support the historical records of Dagestan. But it’s over now with Arab historians. Marat123 (talk) 16:32, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

"Should I help you divide it up into new pages": At present moment The History of Lak people page is alright, I do not want to change it. It has only two sections: Shamkhalate of Kazi-Kumukh and Khanate of Kazi-Kumukh. Marat123 (talk) 17:03, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, that sounds good, then... you haven't actually deleted anything, then...? Because what I was afraid of was that you had... like was there not a section about the Kingdom of Lakz before, for example? And about the rule of the Laks by Caucasian Albania... this seems to be all gone... at the very least, the quotes about hte names of the various peoples who inhabited Caucasian Albania was pretty good. That's why I originally came to check the page in the first place, to fetch it.

On the other hand, however, I definitely agree with you on Arab historians talking about the Caucasus. Seriously... they couldn't even tell peoples apart. And neither could the Russians or Persians or even Westerners until the 19th century... hence Chechens were regularly called "Circassians" and Avars seemed to switch from being "Circassians" to being "Lezgians" depending on what month it was!). But is my personal opinion that Arab sources should not be given any sort of priority, because at least there is some sort of remote authenticity about Persian, Russian and Western historical reporting (perhaps because it was done mainly later). It's great that Georgia's annals survived... All the other Caucasian peoples lost their historical writings to destruction by the Mongols and/or Russians, and all we have left now is tantalizing little centuries-old messages on stone in Georgian script...I still believe that there was at least one Kingdom Sarir that was Avar, even if there was another kingdom called Sarir that was Lak as you say (Jaimoukha backs this too). But I don't want to get into Dagestani ethnic historical wars (they make me SO glad that Chechnya remained separate from Dagestan!). But I digress- yes, I agree that it was good that you deleted mass referencing to Arab historians... --Yalens (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Nakho-Dagestani Swadesh list idea that I had

One more thing... I was thinking of making a Swadesh list of Nakho-Dagestani languages. I will be using Chechen, maybe Batsbi, Avar, Andi, Tsez/Dido, Lak, Darg(in/wa), Archi, maybe Tsakhur, Lezgin, maybe Tabarasan, and Khinalugh if I can get my hands on any info on Khinalugh. I might pull in Urartian too, if possible, as the latest relatively well-attested Hurro-Urartian branch representative... Are you interested in helping, with the Lak part and possibly others if possible?--Yalens (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yalens, I do not want to involve myself in Wikipedia much. The Russian wiki asked me to assist before but I refused, I do not have time. Marat123 (talk) 13:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)