User talk:Madalibi/Ming-Qing transition (1619-1683)

Launch the page?

Hi Madalibi, I think it is excellent that you have been working on a Ming-Qing transition page. I think that this would be an opportune time to "put it out there"; or, to take it out of the sandbox and create the article. I am interested in the poetry of this time, and have therefor perceived the lack of this article on Wikipedia to be most disappointing. I know that for you this is long term project; but, perhaps you might launch it on its way -- maybe I could encourage you by being willing to help (for example) by filling out the blank sections (for example, 'The Fall of the Ming' or 'The Qing conquest' sections) with some general commentary, which you could later expand/replace. Or, if you prefer, I could create some sort of stub article; and, then you could add in your more specifically topical material later. Your draft article is already so far superior to what I would do, that I would again ask that you launch this "mother ship": and, let it grow! Dcattell (talk) 04:10, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Dcattell. Thank you for your generous assessment and for expressing interest in this page. As you can see, it's mostly an outline, but I can do something about it fairly quickly. Then I will launch the page at the "Start" level, why not! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 05:59, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I've done a fair amount of work, so the page should be ready soon. One big thing missing is a lede! Honestly speaking, I'm still hesitant to launch it this fast, because to me the main interest of this page is not the political history that I just wrote: it's the social, economic, and artistic trends that went with it. This is precisely what is missing now. Also, when I work fast I feel that it's hard to write something balanced. Right now, there is nothing about the nature of Qing rule in the regions, nothing on the human cost of the war (population trends, various massacres committed by Qing troops, either Manchu or Han), nothing on the new "conquest elite," and nothing on Qing social policies (seizure of land in northern China, haircutting order, and clearing of the southeastern seashore on the one hand, and lowering of taxes and some attempts to woo the intellectual elite into supporting the new regime on the other hand), and nothing on historiographical debates concerning the effects of the transition. All this deserves careful treatment. But since it might take weeks to add this kind of content, maybe we should just launch this wiki now and open it to all readers and editors, who can then do whatever they want. I'll decide tomorrow after I write a lede and something on the Three Feudatories. Madalibi (talk) 09:10, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Dcattell: don't hesitate to work in my sandbox if there's anything you feel like adding in! The "Philosophy, literature, and art" section will have to be split into three as soon as enough material is added. Madalibi (talk) 09:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)