Lycianhittite

January 2009

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Cybele. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello, unfortunately you're warning the wrong person, because the people who are reverting my edits, do not talk in the discussion pages.

I have endless times written the reasoning behind my changes in the discussion pages and:

a)waited for them to use the discussion page b)pointed the person who is deleting my changes to the discussion page by putting "Relevance-DiscussionPage" in the edit summary box. c)after this didnt work, started using the edit reason box to communicate! with the person who is deleting my changes Lycianhittite (talk) 00:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to again see edit warring from you on my watchlist. Wait until there is consensus before you revert again. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello again, but they are not communicating! Just undoing my additions without any discussion. Could you please warn user El_Greco instead? Thank you.

Please do not infiltrate into archives of wiki user's. If you have a message to pass, each user has a talk page and that's the place to leave your messages. Regards. Melahat (talk) 18:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll talk to him, but seriously...stop edit warring. If the addition should be added, it can wait a few days. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the understanding.Lycianhittite (talk) 00:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

No problem. Could you explain to me why you think Turkish is relevant. I thought Hittites were a very ancient civilization. Modern Turks are a product of Islam, and the Ottoman Empire. Whats the connection with Hittite civilization? It seems that they're just in the same location, geographically. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:21, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Modern day Turks(not real Turkics in central asia) are the indigenous population of the region, proven by scientific studies(I will add further info below from a previous discussion-for your info). The indigenous population of the region initially had civilizations like the Hittites, Lydians, Lycians, Phrygians and others that had distinct languages of their own belonging to the anatolian language family.

These populations were later hellenized(especially starting with Alexander the Great) and started speaking Greek. But research has shown that there was very heavy usage of ancient anatolian languages in central anatolia even after 1000 years of hellenization(language shift to greek).

You can kindly refer to [1] the book by one of the most famous byzantine scholars which states that even around 700AD there was massive usage of phrygian, which was a distinct anatolian language with its own alphabet.

Later, in a few hundred years, Turkics have entered anatolia, who were muslims and were speaking Turkish.

They were not very many in number(today ~%10-15 are related to turkics),but their language in time became prominent as well as their religion islam.

Later on, as the islamization of Anatolia went on, the Byzantine empire collapsed and when the Turkish speaking muslim Anatolian Ottoman King/Sultan conquered Constantinople/Istanbul, he was directly related to the Byzantine Royal Family itself!!

All the following ottoman kings as well got married to yet not turkish speaking populations of anatolia, so as some scholars put it concisely, the Byzantine Empire was islamised. A lot of ottoman food,music,traditions were based on byzantine ones.

About 5 centuries later, the modern Anatolian republic was found using the title Turkish, as the majority of the population was speaking turkish. Not because they were related to real Turkics in Central asia.

What does the hittites have to do with modern day Anatolians?

The hittite culture is one of the most prominent cultural sources of modern anatolian culture as proven by many studies.

As a major example, the Anatolian Saz instrument has been proven to be directly related to the hittite stringed instrument of thousands of years ago, and recently depictions of certain feasts, celebrations were found that are of exact match to today's culture.

[2] [3] [4]

Please find below further info from a previous posting of mine:

cultural continuity:

-education: The only university in the WORLD having the name Hittite is in Turkey(Anatolia) [5]

-city symbols: -> Turkey(Current name of Anatolian country) is the only country in the world whose let alone any city, but capital has the hittite sun as its symbol!

-genetics: ->According to scientific studies more than %90 of anatolian turks are indigenous anatolians

-music: -> anatolian saz instrument is a direct continuation of the hittite stringed-musical instruments as proven by hittite pots bearing coloured depictions of the exact instrument being played. [6]

-food ->the food eaten in Anatolia is a direct continuation of the hittite cuisine[7]For reference please read the book titled "Hittite Cuisine" published by Alpha Publishing(08-2008) in Turkey.

-place names -> Adana is a major province of Turkey famous for its Kebabs and according to studies Hittite cuisine contained a strong element of meat skewer(Shish Kebab). The name of the city comes from Hittite beginning of its name Adaniya.

-person names -> Kybele was a prominent ancient anatolian goddess. Her name in Turkish is Sibel and this is a very prominent female name in the central regions of Turkey(corresponding to core hittite areas).

-folk games: -> A lot of games played by children of Anatolians are direct descendant of ancient anatolian games including the hittite ones. For reference research the "Asik Kemigi(Asik Bone)" game which is very popular in anatolia even today. Depictions of the exact game were found from late hittite period near eastern anatolia(turkey)

In conclusion Turks(as Anatolians are now referred to as/not to be confused with real Turkic Central Asians) are direct continuation of ancient anatolian civilzations and they currently pronounce their ancestors' civilizations names in Turkish.For this reason, the name of hittites should be provided in Turkish.

Lycianhittite (talk) 00:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

You provide a lot of examples, but I don't see anything conclusive. They seem to be anecdotes; and the plural of anecdote is not data. Are there any works by major scholars that I could read (eg books or journal articles) that have a thesis along the lines of, "Present-day Turkish culture was largely shaped by Hittite civilization"? Short of something along those lines, I don't think there's a strong enough case for these to be mentioned. However, the bit about Kybele and Sibel is rather interesting. I assume this is part of what you were trying to add on Cybele. If you can find a RS that mentions the Hittite word in the etymology, or makes some kind of link between the Hittite and Turkish (Arabic?) equivalent, I think it would be worth mentioning in the article. Regards. Carl.bunderson (talk) 01:06, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

1) Turkish and Arabic languages are not related at all.

2) There are a huge number of studies about today's anatolians and their ancestors hittites relations.But as you'd expect they are mostly in anatolian(turkish) language as it is of primary interest to anatolians. There are even books about hittite cuisine that directly relate it to the Anatolian cuisine of today(Hittite Cuisine-Alpha Publishing 2008, Turkey). In this book for example, the researchers actually went to the current villages in the hittite areas and gathered information ethnoarcheologic information about the population. Such as their cooking habits, kitchen utensils,etc. These were compared and proven to be very much related.

I will though, try to find you some articles in English about the Hittites.

3) I am glad that you also found the information about Kybele interesting. I will do further research about and share it in the article. The most important thing now is to fix this problem about today's anatolians not having their version of the name of Kubaba(Cybele/Matera/Kibele) in the article despite the cultural continuity.

It is very important to provide the Turkish name of this goddess because:

-The goddess was originally Hittite and later Phrygian, for this reason the Hittite and Phyrigian versions of the name, that lead to the Greek version of the name should be provided in the article.

-Todays Anatolians are the indigenous population of the region according to scientific studies, and at this moment, have a widely used turkish language name for Kybele, which is Sibel. This should also be provided as a)It shows what today's anatolians call their ancient goddess b)It showst the cultural continuity in Anatolia

The Greek version of Kubaba is of no more importance than the Turkish one, as they were both different versions of the original ancient anatolian one, given as the Anatolians first started to speak Greek, and later on shifted to Turkish

Lycianhittite (talk) 01:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I wasn't sure if Turks spoke Arabic or had their own language. And thank you for trying to find some things in English for me, I appreciate it. Carl.bunderson (talk) 01:54, 10 January 2009 (UTC)