User talk:Ktrimi991/Archive 4

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Please correct your comment

Giving a barnstar [1] and endorsing disrespectful comments they made against non-English people whose the writing skills aren't as good, and giving that barnstar right below the very same thread which contains these complaints [2] was very low and inappropriate of you. Endorsing and encouraging such behavior, is frown upon. You are called to either 1) self-revert yourself or 2) correct your comment by striking the "perfectly wording" part in it. Refusing to do so, will result in your name being included in the WMF filling. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:06, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Ignore my warning. The ANI Thread's closure was ammended and the WMF filling is cancelled. This barnstar however remains a source of concern for your sensitivity towards other editors, Ktrimi991. You ought to re-consider your stance. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:47, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

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Coi editor

You're right about the coi and I warned him about it last year.ive warned him again. Doug Weller talk 21:13, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Doug Weller. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:37, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

There is still hope for  Wikipedia

"You are one of the very rare editors willing and having the guts to do that" Are you kidding me? All editors should do it in good faith not me, who am I to do it alone? If for some change ie better article needs "guts" then situation is very bad. I know that no one is following Balkan history but there must be some control. Statuta Valachorum(Vlachs) article and we read about Serbs? Other editors instead of correcting this anomaly they keep old data. They probably do it in good faith? I added data to the article(Statuta Valachorum) that was deleted so I suggest that on your page I explain all these changes so you will tell me what we can do with that information to make article as accurate as possible. I guess everyone should work together to keep articles accurate as possible so you're probably kidding when you mentioned "guts". If you disagree with proposal then sorry for the annoyance. Mikola22 (talk) 16:52, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Mikola22, such Balkan articles often are rather difficult to edit, and one should expect that. See the editing history of the article, and notice how few editors have paid attention to it. It is a very good thing you want to improve that article, and I am willing to give some help. I found some reliable sources, and will try to combine them with yours in order to make some content ready for addition to the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:05, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Resolved, you will see my information and sources and then you will tell me what to do. In an hour or two i'll post info so stay close.Mikola22 (talk) 17:18, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Statuta Valachorum

• on 5 October 1630 that defined the rights of "Vlachs" (a term used for a community of mostly Orthodox refugees, mainly Serbs and no feudal obligations made the Orthodox Serbs valuable allies for the monarchy in its seventeenth-century struggle were mainly Serbs.

I am deleting this part "(mainly Serbs)" because this requires consensus, the other sources(books etc) do not mention mainly Serbs as Orthodox refugees in that part of Croatia ie Varaždin Generalat and evidence for this is provided in the sources I cite below throughout the page.

{Statuta Valachorum covered Orthodox Vlachs, but still their regulations were refer to all Grenzers regardless of their religious affiliation. plus new additional source

• In the mid-16th century, the Military Frontier was established as a buffer against the Ottoman Empire. Balkan refugees, including Vlachs, Serbs etc, crossed into Habsburg lands.

I added Vlachs and etc here, I now add an additional source for this claim.

• Slavonia (including the Varaždin Generalate) was continuously settled by Vlachs, Serbs and others from various regions since the 15th century.

I add Vlachs and others here and new additional source

• A large migration of Serbs (called "people of Rascians or Vlachs") and Vlachs into Croatia and Slavonia from Ottoman territory took place from 1597. to 1600.

I add here and Vlachs and now new additional source

• Habsburg Monarchy would be notably weakened and threatened; at an assembly of ca. 3,400 war-equipped Vlachs, Serbs and other Grencers it was promised that the Vlachs

Here I add Grencers, and now additional source

• In early 1630, representatives of Croatian nobility, Vlachs and Serbs met in Vienna... however, the unhappy Vlachs and Serbs between the Sava and Drava instead gave colone..

Here I add Vlachs because there are no historical documents that mention Serbs in Vienna otherwise this Serbian source(book) mentions the Serbs throughout whole book instead of Vlachs so it should see if this is RS, in any case the mention of the Serbs remained in the quotation. Since the Serbian source is talking about Serbs from Rovišće who allegedly were in Vienna, my additional new source mentions Vlachs in that same Rovišće not Serbs exstra source that mentions Vlachs in Rovišće

• These grants to Serbs and Vlachs made them valuable allies of the Habsburg government against the Catholic Croatian nobility.

Here I add Vlachs and now exstra source

• The Statuta Valachorum significantly influenced on change in the ethnic image of this part of Croatia, the arge numbers of Orthodox Vlachs settled in this area among which were later infiltrated and numerous Catholic Croats. Additional source

I enter this information based on the source.

• Karl Kaser (Historiker) Historian

• Doctor LÁSZLÓ HEKA "Njegov je istraživački rad u početku bio na području pravne povijesti, a potom i komparativnog prava. Usredotočuje se na pravni sustav hrvatske, južnoslavenske i slavenske države, kao i na vjerske pravne sustave (islamsko i židovsko pravo). Također proučava pravo (etnički romski Kris i albansko uobičajeno pravo) i etnografiju naroda, etničkih grupa, vjerskih skupina koje žive u regiji jugoslavenskog Balkana, kao i povijest Hrvata u Mađarskoj, posebno Dalmatinaca u Segedinu." translation "His research work was initially in the field of legal history and then comparative law. It focuses on the legal system of the Croatian, South Slavic and Slavic states, as well as on the religious legal systems (Islamic and Jewish law). He also studies law (ethnic Roma Kris and Albanian customary law) and the ethnography of peoples, ethnic groups, religious groups living in the Yugoslav Balkan region, as well as the history of Croats in Hungary, especially Dalmatians in Szeged" So far, 18 volumes, monographs, textbooks and 58 scientific publications on this topic have been published in Hungarian, Croatian, Serbian and German language. The last book for now "Croatian-Hungarian Settlement"

• Additional sources and data:

• Mirko Marković Croatian historian

Eastern Slavonia, Vlach population(16th and 17th century) needs well distinguished from ethnic Serbs who come here in the late 17th and early 18th century as fugitives from southern Serbia(from the Turks)

• “Statuta Confiniariorum Varasdinensium” iz 1732. godine: latinski i kajkavski tekst

This is law who supposed to be replacement of "Statuta Valachorum" and in that law from 1732 are mentioned (page 38. from source) "Što se tiče novoga krajiškog zakona, sadržaj novih Statuta otkriva neke razlike u odredbama iz 1630. i 1732. godine, na primjer u uvodnome dijelu teksta ne spominje se općina Vlaha (communitas Valachorum) između Save i Drave kao 1630. godine nego se govori o krajišnicima Varaždinskoga generalata ili o vojničkome puku koji se nalazi između Save i Drave (latinski: Statuta Confiniariorum Varasdinensium, seu Populi militaris Savum intra et Dravum habitantis; na kajkavskom jeziku Statuta, Pravicze ili Articulusi krainschanov Varasdinszkih ili Puka Voinichkoga met Szavum y Dravum sztoichega), a kao krajišnici su u latinskome tekstu navedeni “Croati” i “Valachi,” translate "With regard to the new law, the content of the new Statutes reveals some differences in the provisions of 1630 and 1732, for example, in the introductory part of the text no reference is made to the municipality of Vlach (communitas Valachorum) between Sava and Drava as 1630, but to the grencers of the Varazdin Generalate or of a military regiment located between the Sava and the Drava (Latin: Statute of Confiniariorum Varasdinensium, seu Populi militaris Savum intra et Dravum habitantis; in which the Latin text refers to "Croatians" and "Valachi,"

• Balkan Wars Habsburg Croatia, Ottoman Bosnia, and Venetian Dalmatia, 1499–1617 James D.Tracy, 2016, (page 353, 354,355) "In February 1597, Ferdinand issued a decree to the effect that Vlachs transferring to his land swould be free of both taxes and labor service(robot) so long as they served as fighting men. A first large group of Vlachs now crossed over and were assigned land by General Herberstein. In June 1597, Vlach leaders proposed that more people would come if Herberstein camped near Virovitica; when hedid, 1,700 came over.... Among the Vlachs were some Greek Catholics, in union with Rome.."

• "Već od konca 16. stoljeća Vlasi se naseljavaju na polupusta plemićka i crkvena vlastelinstva u Križevačkoj županiji, istočnim dijelovima Varaždinske i Zagrebačke županije te u Posavini i Pokuplju.".. "Since the end of the 16th century Vlachs settled on the half-empty manor estate in Križevci county, the eastern parts of the Varaždin and Zagreb county and in Posavina and Pokuplje."Mikola22 (talk) 19:39, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

• OK Mikola22, I will soon ping you to see a draft. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:31, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

  No problem, if more evidence is needed from these two main sources feel free to let me know. This source of Austrian historian ie book "Karl Kaser, 1997, Slobodan seljak i vojnik: Rana krajiška društva, 1545-1754" has more information about Vlachs, here I only mentioned the main claim(Fugitives are in the sources without exception called as Vlachs, they are very rarely called as Uskoks, Pribjezi, Predavci). Mikola22 (talk) 21:05, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Great manipulation with sources, take from one, delete from another, ignore the fact that Vlach/Morlac was often a synonym for Serbs and Orthodox Christians and that it had 3-4 meanings throughout history (class, religion, nation, ethnicity); what a great pseudointellectual buffet. It is a pleasure to see Balkan people working together for a noble goal! cheers Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 22:47, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sadko:, do not make personal attacks on Mikola22. It is pointless and will not help you in any way, unless you want to produce evidence against yourself. I agree that "Valachorum" in the case of the statute meant "Orthodox Christian" regardless of language and ethnic identity. I am preparing a draft but might take some time as I am rather busy in real life. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:11, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I am just reading what is in front of me. I do not need help of any sort, I do my own work. The current text is a Frankenstein-like creation and I plan to alert various Wiki projects of any problems, bad use of sources and lack of consensus, because this is some new sort of revisionism - and we already have enough of it in the Balkans. The idea is pretty much simple (and this is not addressed to you Ktrimi); one should add Vlach where there is a mention of Serbs in modern-day Croatia. It will furthter prove that Serbs of Croatia are only some poor Vlachs, and that they were brainwashed to become Serbs by the Serbian Orthodox Church, which can be later used for daily politics. Vlah holds the same meaning for Serbs as Šiptar does for Albanians... I hope that you will have this in mind. This is another popular narrative in Croatia, mostly in right-wing and modern Ustaše circles. I claim that this is only a more sophisticated form of bias driven POV, which can be seen from the whole body of work. And no, I am not attacking anyone, just analysing what I can see here and telling you what you are taking a part of, because I guess that your knowledge of Serbo-Croatian circles and various data is limited. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:30, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sadko: I am aware of the misuse of the term "Vlach" in some Balkan nationalist circles. It is part of a general trend in the Balkans to misuse history to support various claims, a trend that unfortunately culminated in the 1990s. You and Mikola22 can sort out your content disputes by using reliable sources published by reputable universities and other similar publishers. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:46, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sadko: You do not edit article in good faith. Large migrations of Serbs(Rascians) go towards eastern Slavonia, Banat, Vojvodina. In the area of Varaždin, Koprivnica ie to the river Sava, Vlachs(Uskoks, Predavci etc) are coming probably and groups of Rascians, who mix with the Croatian serfs and Croatian serfs migrating en masse to that area and they are all there under the Vlach name. We cannot promote Serbian name throughout whole article. I did not delete Serbs from article(except twice "Vlachs are mostly Serbs"). I quote: "Thus, speaking of the origin of the ancient and medieval Vlachs, Roman(ised) people might become modern Romanians, while “Illyrians” might turn into present-day Albanians. Alternatively, South Slav (i.e., former Yugoslav) historiographies insist on exclusive Slavic character (if not origin) of the Vlachs. As a result, it became a norm (though nowadays more or less abandoned) to write the initial letter of Vlach name in lower-case – vlah instead of Vlah Austrian historian Karl Kaser says this for Vlachs in Slavonia(Varaždin Generalate) I quote: numerous families of Slavonians have been among the Vlachs since the settlement, in 1635 a commission was formed with order to separate Vlachs from private Vlachs(Croatian native Vlachs from that area) and from Slavonians and Predavci however this was only partially successful for the commission (page 102), it can be said with great certainty that these Vlachs were once Romanized groups which after the departure of the Romans become nomads. Balkan states have tried to integrate these Vlachs but it could only succeed incompletely but nevertheless the gradualy Slavicization of Vlachs began with parallel integration into the Greek Orthodox Church(page 92). Croatian academician Mirko Marković 2002, I quote: "Vlach population(16th and 17th century) needs well distinguished from ethnic Serbs who come here(eastern Slavonia, Vojvodina) in the late 17th and early 18th century as fugitives from southern Serbia(from the Turks)". We need to understand that Statuta Valachorum covers all population in that area and there are many others among Vlachs, there are also private Vlachs ie Croatian Vlachs there. This is specific situation in the area of Varaždin Generalate and as far as eastern Slavonia, Banat and Vojvodina are concerned this is a topic for another article and sources about Serbs can be cited more extensively there. In any case we must respect the name of the law ie "Valachorum" and we must not turn it into "Slavonian", "Croatian", "Serbian" law. Mikola22 (talk) 07:56, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

@Mikola, @Sadko, @Ktrimi - Vlachs (Vlasi) of Western Balkans were indigenous romanized population, whose descendants living in Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, southern Serbia, Kosovo, and who were present and already Christianized in times when Slavs started migrating into Balkan. They became Albanians, Croats, Serbs, and even Muslims (as Bosnian Muslims or Bosniaks). They were called different names back then, and those names persisted to our times and mutated into various derogatory nicknames and slurs: Vlasi, Morlaci, Škutori, Šiptari. These people will than get assimilated into (pre)modern Albanian and various South Slavic ethnicities, regardless of religion, and although they long lost their original language and culture, they preserved some hints to their distinct past - for example, among Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins and Bosnian Muslims they can be detected with their distinct surnames, uncharacteristically for South Slavs lacking diminutive suffix "ić", so that you have Cimirot, Hrabren, Borjani, Banjani, Rudinje, all Serbs really, rather with "typical" Slavic-Serb surnames (right? ;-)); or Croats named, "traditionally", Bobani, Pribini, Hardomili, you see, quite typical for Slavic-Croat surnames, stretching back to times and space of "White Croatia" on Titan; or Montenegrins Nikše and Njeguši (translator, anyone?), or "typical" Slavic-Bosnian Muslim surnames Zlatar, Kebo, or Serbo-Bosniaks Kujave, Ridžani, Pješivci; or Serbo-Croatian-Muslim Boljuni, Burmazi; Jesus-Cimirot-Christ was Serb/Croat/Muslim. Thankfully, contemporary scholars are no longer completely absorbed by ideology of nation-building from times immemorial and "ancient" Serbs/Croats, they understand and write about indigenous population of pre-Slavic times.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 02:03, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Each area of Croatia, Bosnia etc should be treated in accordance with historical facts, historical records and RS. I agree with the claim that "indigenous romanized population, whose descendants living in Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, southern Serbia, Kosovo," but these Vlachs also exist in the Turkish period in large numbers. So we cannot originally know who they are(because we have no historical documents to establish that). This article is specifically about area of Varaždin Generalate in which many others live under Vlach's name, in that area Catholics and Orthodox are called Vlachs. Croatian peasants flee massively to that area to become Vlachs(because of the privileges). But someone entered the Serbian name throughout whole article although they are least mentioned there. We need to make the article more accurate and neutral and normally to comply with RS-ources. I was putting Serbs next to Vlachs but the question is how accurate is my edit when my main source (an Austrian historian) speaks only about Vlachs who later become Serbs or Croats. @Ktrimi said he would propose his own version so we'll see what this is all about. But in any case we must work together to make the article more accurate. Mikola22 (talk) 16:22, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

they can be detected with their distinct surnames, uncharacteristically for South Slavs lacking diminutive suffix "ić" So, for example, "Jouan Preradouicz Stari Vlah", "Mikula Olierouicz Stari Vlah" etc. from the mentioned Karl Kaser's book POPIS LIKE I KRBAVE 1712. GODINE are not Vlachs in fact?--Nicoljaus (talk) 07:53, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Which origin these surnames confirm? Montenegrins, Vlachs, Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks have these surnames.Mikola22 (talk) 18:08, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Whether we are go change article for the better?Mikola22 (talk) 19:51, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi Mikola22, how have you been? I have not forgotten the content dispute, I have just been busy lately. I will post my draft proposal later today or tomorrow. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:08, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Here i am editing Wikipedia as always. I thought you are scared, because it would be an earthquake(our edit).Mikola22 (talk) 20:17, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

• Just to state some facts on my part.

• Under Vlachs of Varaždin Generalate according to the book of Austrian historian Karl Kaser are Orthodox and Catholics.
• Area of Statuta Valachorum is from the Sava river to the Drava river. Area under Hasburg administration not Ottoman Slavonia.
• Croatian peasants(serfs) flee massively to that area, part also convert to Orthodoxy and they become Vlachs.
• Mirko Marković Croatian academician in his 600-page book(2002) on Slavonia states that "Vlach population(16th and 17th century) needs well distinguished from ethnic Serbs who come here in the late 17th and early 18th century as fugitives from southern Serbia(from the Turks)" They(Serbs) most migrate to Vojvodina and eastern Slavonia.
• Were there any Serbs among the Orthodox inhabitants of Varaždin Generalate and Statuta Valachorum, probably yes but we cannot because of this the whole article convert to Serbian Statuta. There are others there(about half were Croatian serfs), Catholics as well so we must also respect and that. We need to make article neutral as possible. And we need to limit our view of things just to that area and that population.
• "Orthodox Slavs and Vlachs fled from the Ottomans into Dalmatia, Bosnia, and Herzegovina, or farther northward across the Danube. They were strategically resettled in the area of the military frontier. Many people retreated to the mountains of Albania, Greece, and Montenegro, where, as migratory shepherds, they remained largely untouchedby Ottoman rule." We need to understand that the whole Balkans is fleeing and that unfortunately we do not know who the Vlachs originally were, they could also be Albanians, Montenegrins, Croats, Macedonians etc. We need to look at history realistically. Mikola22 (talk) 07:04, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

References

Ku asht Greça ?

Shok, you've asked in Memorandum of Greça where it is and I've answered your question here. I hope that it clears the way towards a better understanding of the geography of Cem and Malësia.Maleschreiber (talk) 17:44, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much Maleschreiber. If you ever need any help with editing Wikipedia, do not hesitate to tell me. Cheers :) Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:43, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you shok. Most stuff are manageable, but the editor is...somewhat lacking. There are some things about the guidelines that I don't understand completely and/or I don't know how to change. For example, the reason I made an account on wiki is because I wanted to write about Malësia and I've come across some very bad or rudimentary articles. I've worked a lot on Cem (river) but the rating of the article is "Stub-class" still. Who does the rating? And to whom do I talk to if I want to change that?Maleschreiber (talk) 13:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Maleschreiber I could not respond earlier due to being busy with real life stuff, though after reading your comment above a few days ago I placed a welcome template on your talk page where you can find potentially helpful links about editing Wikipedia. On content assessment, read the link below. You might request content assessments on the talk pages of relevant WikiProjects. I have never done assessments but of course there are other editors willing to do [3]. If you need more help, let me know. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:04, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! Hope you get some rest.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:06, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Përshëndetje, më falni për gabimin e rëndë që kam bërë, nuk do editohen më informacione nga unë pa qënë 100% të sakta. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SlayzeeOfficial (talk • contribs) 23:22, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Hello Ktrimi I can ask you to create an English referendum on autonomy https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendumi_p%C3%ABr_autonomi_teritoriale_dhe_politike?wprov=sfti1

Vestacka Nacija (talk) 21:56, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Hello Vestacka Nacija, rn I am mostly making small edits of the kind of talk page comments and reverting. That due to being busy with real life things. Most of my article creations nowadays are small articles on notable figures of the Alb Rilindja period. I might write a short article, or add to an existing article content dedicated to that referendum. But I can not promise anything with certainty due to the limited Wiki time I have. If you need sources, I can give you some. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:02, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Republic of Ilirida

Pershendetje trimi pse e largove info faqen 109.175.101.133 (talk) 18:22, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi. Why do not you create an account and join the Wiki community? You have been making edits for months. I can give you a welcome template with links to relevant Wiki guidelines and policies. Re Ilirida, it was a proposed country but not a formed country. It was (and to some degree, is) a concept and a proposal. Hence the Former Country infobox can not be used. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:38, 15 February 2020 (UTC)