Welcome! edit
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A barnstar for you! edit
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The Original Barnstar |
| Principal of the University of Aberdeen is a very good page. Well done! BoyTheKingCanDance (talk) 02:50, 9 March 2023 (UTC) |
A barnstar for you! edit
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|
The Original Barnstar |
| Chancellor of the University of Aberdeen is a very good page. Well done! BoyTheKingCanDance (talk) 06:20, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
Economic status edit
Hi, I have noticed that you changed the wealth figures on the British Indian page. The problem with a "household" figure is that it can be misleading. Certain cultures tend to have larger families, with numerous generations living under the same roof e.g. parents, son and daughter in law, their kids etc. This means they tend to have a larger household income than smaller families. That is why the Resolution Foundation stated that it's fairer to do it on a per adult basis. And that's why i initially input the per adult figures. That gives a more accurate picture. Just like to get your views on that. Thanks Koppite1 (talk) 20:54, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @Koppite1:, thank you for leaving a message. Would you be able to provide the page/sourced used in the Resolution Foundation report in which I can find the exact figures? That was my primary concern as the numbers quoted could not be backed up and seemed to be guesstimates which I was concerned may violate WP:NOR. I have seen exact figures in page 16 which show financial assets per adult but they do not match the figures you provided.
- I am now aware that the make up of Asian households in particular may skew figures: Ethnicity facts and figures: Families and households so perhaps adding another column may be the preferred option. If exact figures can be quoted, I am happy to do so. Kioj156 (talk) 21:25, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- There is a chart on page 6. From this, it's possible to get median (as opposed to mean) approximates. That's what i previously used. Your idea of adding another column may indeed be the best solution. As you can see, on a per adult basis, White Britons have the highest median wealth (Indians have the highest household wealth) and groups like the Chinese fair a little better when looked at on a per adult basis. I think per adult is a fairer metric as it overcomes differences in certain cultures having larger/multigenerational families under one roof. Thanks Koppite1 (talk) 00:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, I had thought that this was the chart you used. I would be against using approximates in that case as they can be prone to bias and are not figures which future readers can find for themselves using the quoted source. I do not think it is appropriate to include figures because it may help certain ethnic groups fair better, even if I agree with you on the merits of using the per adults figure. This is just my opinion though, and it may be better to open a discussion on the Talk page for British Indians to seek the opinion of others. Kioj156 (talk) 08:01, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- TBF, these are not approximates from the Resolution Foundation. I'm saying that because the chart doesn't give precise figures, they can be input as approximates and it made clear as such. Also, the converse of your argument is that merely quoting household wealth may help certain ethnic groups fair better. For instance, White Britons are wealthier than Indians but because they tend to have smaller families, we get this skewed perception that Indians are the wealthiest. Many of the wealth comparisons are now starting to do it on a per adult basis because it's a more accurate metric. For instance, the Civitas Report, which, like the Resolution report, found that White Britons are the wealthiest per head. Personally, i think it would be better to revert back to the more reflective per adult chart, or at least, add another column. Thanks Koppite1 (talk) 09:36, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- I quote the household wealth figures because they are the exact figures given by the Resolution Foundation report, not to skew data any favour of any groups. You are welcome to include caveats or limitations of the data in the text above the table.
- I am against inserting your own approximates based on what you interpret them to be because they are not the exact figures given by the report since the report itself does not provide exact figures. Any future reader looking at the source will not be able to find the data given in the Wikipedia page because they are based off of subjective interpretation of the chart. Regardless of how accurate the approximates provided may be, they are still approximates. The figures you provide have not been published.
- I've said before I would be in favour of including per head wealth, but the core premises of WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV trump either of our opinions. Kioj156 (talk) 10:13, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- TBF, there isn't much "personal or subjective interpretation" of the figures. The chart bars clearly give a good indicator. For instance, we can clearly see that the White British yellow bar is at the 200k mark. I really don't see the issue. Per adult gives a far more accurate picture. Koppite1 (talk) 19:35, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- Please familiarise yourself with the core content policies of Wikipedia. You use figures which are not published and cannot be verified. You can try to replicate the chart (though this may be subject to copyright) on Wikipedia, but you cannot quote figures which have not been published.
- I would like to add that this is nothing against you personally or your ability to provide approximates. Figures quoted on wikipedia need to be published and easily verified, without subject to personal interpretation. Kioj156 (talk) 22:28, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- Not gonna push this any further but just wondering whether using the CIVTAS figures would have been a better option instead. That at least gives precise figures and it's done on a per head basis, which is a fairer/more accurate metric. Thanks. Koppite1 (talk) 10:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- The Resolution Foundation is a well-cited and respected think tank, I would refrain from using Civitas given its links and potential for bias. I have found this link from the ONS which quotes individual wealth: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/distributionofindividualtotalwealthbycharacteristicingreatbritain/april2018tomarch2020. I believe that 'Table 10: Average total individual wealth by ethnic group (15-category)' is the dataset you are looking for. It contains the most recent data for 2018-2020. Kioj156 (talk) 14:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Not gonna push this any further but just wondering whether using the CIVTAS figures would have been a better option instead. That at least gives precise figures and it's done on a per head basis, which is a fairer/more accurate metric. Thanks. Koppite1 (talk) 10:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- TBF, there isn't much "personal or subjective interpretation" of the figures. The chart bars clearly give a good indicator. For instance, we can clearly see that the White British yellow bar is at the 200k mark. I really don't see the issue. Per adult gives a far more accurate picture. Koppite1 (talk) 19:35, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- TBF, these are not approximates from the Resolution Foundation. I'm saying that because the chart doesn't give precise figures, they can be input as approximates and it made clear as such. Also, the converse of your argument is that merely quoting household wealth may help certain ethnic groups fair better. For instance, White Britons are wealthier than Indians but because they tend to have smaller families, we get this skewed perception that Indians are the wealthiest. Many of the wealth comparisons are now starting to do it on a per adult basis because it's a more accurate metric. For instance, the Civitas Report, which, like the Resolution report, found that White Britons are the wealthiest per head. Personally, i think it would be better to revert back to the more reflective per adult chart, or at least, add another column. Thanks Koppite1 (talk) 09:36, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, I had thought that this was the chart you used. I would be against using approximates in that case as they can be prone to bias and are not figures which future readers can find for themselves using the quoted source. I do not think it is appropriate to include figures because it may help certain ethnic groups fair better, even if I agree with you on the merits of using the per adults figure. This is just my opinion though, and it may be better to open a discussion on the Talk page for British Indians to seek the opinion of others. Kioj156 (talk) 08:01, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- There is a chart on page 6. From this, it's possible to get median (as opposed to mean) approximates. That's what i previously used. Your idea of adding another column may indeed be the best solution. As you can see, on a per adult basis, White Britons have the highest median wealth (Indians have the highest household wealth) and groups like the Chinese fair a little better when looked at on a per adult basis. I think per adult is a fairer metric as it overcomes differences in certain cultures having larger/multigenerational families under one roof. Thanks Koppite1 (talk) 00:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
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England versus the UK edit
Hello. Can I ask whether you saw my message at Talk:Black British people#England (and Wales) versus UK? I note that you're still adding England-only statistics to articles about ethnic groups in the UK, without making clear that those statistics don't apply to the whole country. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:59, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
April 2024 edit
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