User talk:Kges1901/2017/September

49th Guards Rifle division / First meeting with U.S. forces

Dear Kges1901! Do you have any information about the meeting of the 49th Guards Rifle division with American allies? Георгий Палкин (talk) 18:10, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

(Talk page stalker): Thanks for your note, tovarishch. The information on the first contact in the vicinity of Torgau is at Line of contact and Elbe Day. However the contact appears to have been made by 58th Guards Rifle Division. Can you please supply date or other details of when the 49th Guards Rifle Division met U.S. forces? Kind regards Buckshot06 (talk) 21:44, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

It appears that 9th Armored Division was in the Linz area, and the 11th Armored Division actually liberated the city[1]. These units were part of the Patton's Third Army. I can't find any information on the meeting from the Soviet side, though there may be information in the documents on pamyat-naroda.ru. Kges1901 (talk) 21:53, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

@Георгий Палкин: - [2] Here is the combat diary of the 49th GRD for 1 January-30 June 1945. The information you want should be there. Kges1901 (talk) 21:57, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer! But I would like to get acquainted with the English-speaking sources. In particular, I am interested in the awarding of American awards to soldiers of the 49th Guard RD. Георгий Палкин (talk) 22:55, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

@Георгий Палкин: Which Soviet soldiers are you specifically looking for information on? I've assumed that you are looking for the soldiers mentioned at the end of the ruwiki article:

• Margelov - can't find any trace of him getting Bronze Star and Legion of Merit from American side in English sources
• Mirolevich - nothing on his Bronze Star
• Lubenchenko - same as above
• Kotlyarsky - this article has information on his award Kges1901 (talk) 00:51, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! But I have a lot of questions. What about major Combarov Alexey Ivanovich (Комбаров Алексей Иванович) Bronze Star? Are there any lists of the awarded? If you can tell who signed the award document Kotlyarsky (name)? Competence award - the level of the division commander (regiment, brigade) or higher level? Георгий Палкин (talk) 11:02, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Kges1901 do we need to get on to the records/issuing authority? Is that CMH? Do you know? If not I'm a little busy here IRL, but can assist over a longer period... Buckshot06 (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Георгий: [3] has citations for those awarded decorations, but it is not very complete. I wasn't able to find anything on Kombarov either. Kotlyarsky's citation, following the standard procedure of the time, was signed by the Secretary of War and the Adjutant General of the United States (though technically presented by the President). U.S. Awards are recommended by a superior usually (though that superior's name doesn't make it into the final citation that gets publicized) but the procedure for foreign recipients is/was different - it's likely that the presentation of awards to Soviet soldiers was in some way coordinated as a gesture of Allied friendship. Kges1901 (talk) 22:42, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Buckshot: the issuing authority for the Bronze Star and Legion of Merit would be the Department of War, so whatever records there are on this would be DoD. Unfortunately, the army doesn't keep a list of award recipients nor does it keep the citations.[4] Kges1901 (talk) 22:42, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Thankyou Kges1901. This is ridiculous that we cannot definitively help from the official records. OK, different track. What was the formation/unit that encountered 49 GRD, and thus which formation/unit submitted these award recommendations? If it's either 9 AD or 11 AD they would have histories, archival material, documents etc.. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:28, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I can't find the formation that actually encountered 49th GRD on the internet. I'm sure that the meeting with the Soviets would be recorded in a unit's operational summaries. I would suggest that combing through Third Army division records for early May 1945 would work best, then work down from there. Records are at NARA. Kges1901 (talk) 08:59, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Was document signed by Edward Fuller Witsell and Robert P. Patterson? Георгий Палкин (talk) 06:20, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. Kges1901 (talk) 08:59, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

According to the 49th GRD battle log at 3 pm on May 10, 1945 near the town of Grein (Upper Austria) a meeting was held with units of the 11th AD (United States). Георгий Палкин (talk) 11:53, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Then the 49th wasn't the first Soviet unit to make contact with the 11th Armored. On 8 May, according to American reports, troops of the 41st Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron met up with Soviet soldiers of the 7th Guards Airborne Division (I'm pretty sure its this division because of the American use of the term "Parachute" in some accounts) near Amstetten. This was the first Third Army contact with the Red Army, and the 11th Armored was at the end of the war the easternmost American unit. I was able to find Grein, Austria, it is 50 km east of Linz and 15 km north of Amstetten, so it matches up. Kges1901 (talk) 20:15, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Dear Kges1901! Yes! According document "Raid of the advanced detachment of 7th Guards Airborne Division to join forces with the US Army" ("Рейд передового отряда 7 гв. вдд на соединение с войсками американской армии") May 08, 1945. Have you read this document in Russian? Георгий Палкин (talk) 16:29, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

No, I haven't. Can you provide a link? Kges1901 (talk) 20:33, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Citation both please!! Kges1901 would you please mind sourcing (generally) your statement, and Georgi Palkin, a link would be great!! But great work on both sides so far, with citations, this can all be added to the appropriate articles!! Buckshot06 (talk) 22:37, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Link [5] (If, something is not clear in the text, I'll try to translate). Георгий Палкин (talk) 05:03, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

My source is Last Shots for Patton's Third Army. Kges1901 (talk) 09:25, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

August 2017 Military History Writers' Contest

		The WikiChevrons
		On behalf of the Milhist coordinators, I hereby award you the WikiChevrons, for placing first in the August 2017 Military History Article Writing Contest with an impressive 107 points from 21 articles. Well done and congratulations, AustralianRupert (talk) 22:57, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

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266th Rifle Division & 35th Army

The Original Barnstar

For your careful creation of 266th Rifle Division (Soviet Union), picking the most appropriate title (most notable actions were probably Second World War), linking all descendant formations & creating redirects for them, and creating a fully, practically up to date, article. Also, importantly, for removing refs to Feskov et al 2004 from 35th Army (Soviet Union). Buckshot06 (talk) 21:57, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

We recently met! But how amazing I was a soldier of the 35th Army. Miracles!!! Георгий Палкин (talk) 13:54, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Interesting, what unit did you serve in? Kges1901 (talk) 16:22, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

566th Separate Anti-Aircraft Rocket Division. Георгий Палкин (talk) 13:39, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Thankyou Georgi. Was the 566th Separate Anti-Aircraft Rocket Divizion a unit that was part of a motor-rifle or tank division, or reported directly to the Staff of 35th Army? It' not listed in Kges1901's fine re-transcription of the Army Troops units from Feskov et al 2013... Cheers and very many thanks, Buckshot06 (talk) 20:45, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

A difficult question for a simple Red Army sergeant. As far as I understand and remember the 566th was part of a (separate?) motor-rifle brigade. I do not remember the number of the brigade, and probably never knew. The brigade was part of the 35th Army. (Feskov - Вооруженные Силы СССР после Второй Мировой войны: от Красной армии к Советской? 2013 - year of publication or year of translation of the book?). Георгий Палкин (talk) 10:27, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

That's the book. Kges1901 can tell you where to download it from the internet; I don't have it at present. Should show you the whole organisation of the DVVO. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:18, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Tomsk NKVD Museum Kges1901 (talk) 20:28, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

If this is a specified book, then everything is simple. There is mentioned 1414th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment. 566th Separate Anti-Aircraft Rocket Divizion is his successor. And the brigade I was talking about was probably the successor of 192nd Motor Rifle Division. Георгий Палкин (talk) 22:00, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXXVII, September 2017

Your Military History Newsletter Project news: From the editors; awards and honours; contest results Articles: Last month's new featured and A-class content Book review: Nick-D and Hawkeye7 look at two recent releases Op-ed: Hawkeye7 on ANZACs in the Third Ypres Offensive Timeline: This month in World War I

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Cannon AFB squadron reflagging

In this edit I have amended "reflagged" to inactivated. User:Lineagegeek will tell you that in formal lineage terms, squadrons are not reflagged, they are inactivated. The new squadron is then "activated". Lineagegeek, would you please check my amendment to 522 SOS and you may also wish to check the wording at 9 SOS now.. Buckshot06 (talk) 04:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks @Buckshot06:, I really had no idea what was going on there so I followed the wording in the 9 SOS article. The news articles on the inactivation called it a redesignation, but I didn't use that because redesignation to me implies transfer of lineage which seems to not have happened. Kges1901 (talk) 07:42, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Anytime you've got any questions, check AFHRA on lineage terms (from page 6, and then take a look/ask at LG's talk page. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:43, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Although I'd personally expand what happened, the use of reflagged with quotation marks is fine. the 9th Special Operations Squadron page Wiki article uses AFHRA lineage information that is out of date and the AFHRA page, although bearing a 2017 date, only brings L&H materials up to 2013, meaning that for references, Public Affairs press releases must be used as sources, and they aren't always entirely accurate on these matters. Another phrase to watch out for is "in a ceremony on (date) the XX Foo Squadron was . . ." The date in the press release is the date of the ceremony, which is sometimes not the date of the action -- ceremonies are sometimes scheduled to agree with some general's calendar, so I frequently use a "circa" date when press releases are the only available source. --Lineagegeek (talk) 11:21, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Russian Wikipedia

Thanks for your edit on 87th Guards. I was intending to remove that myself, just didn't quite get to it last night. Wreck Smurfy (talk) 19:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

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2017 Military history WikiProject Coordinator election

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More on "reflagging"

I'll confess the source doesn't make it clear, but the 73d Special Operations Squadron was not "reflagged" as the 16th. The 16th Special Operations Squadron has been at Cannon since 2009. This was a straight inactivation of the 73d, with the 16th absorbing its remaining resources in addition to those it already had. --Lineagegeek (talk) 20:45, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for providing your expertise on the subject. I was trying to guess what happened from the press releases. Kges1901 (talk) 21:31, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Malta convoys' mistake

I beg your pardon for my faulty citation in Talk:Malta convoys. I was too rush and mistakes follow. Lord Ics (talk) 07:49, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Lineage DOES NOT equal the subunits of a wing!!

Think about this!! If you stick 'components' under 'lineage' neither makes sense!! This is why the USAF official fact sheets break up each of these sections individually, and is why I've had at times to create a horrible long heading 'Lineage, assignments, components, stations, equipment' [etc]. Buckshot06 (talk) 06:36, 29 September 2017 (UTC)