User talk:Kbb2/Archive 2

Andy Schatz pronunciation

Hi, I suggest taking a look at the source alongside the pronunciation. It says: "Everyone pronounces it wrong. I don’t mind, but, it’s pronounced “shots”. When it gets pronounced “shats”, it sounds like I’m shitting myself". I'd appreciate it if you could undo your edit. Cheers, Anarchyte (work | talk) 01:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

@Anarchyte: The current IPA is the correct one. He says that his surname is pronounced shots and that matches the transcription. /sjh/ is an impossible syllable onset in English and not how the "sh" in shots is pronounced. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 01:11, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

@Anarchyte: Also, because transcriptions enclosed within the IPAc-en template are diaphonemic, the vowel needs to be transcribed with /ɑː/, not /ɒ/ because even Brits would pronounce the word with /ɑː/. See Help:IPA/English for more information. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 01:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I appreciate the quick response. Is there any way to change the "a as in father" to an o sound? Otherwise it gives the impression it's pronounced "shats". I don't think anywhere pronounces father as forther. Anarchyte (work | talk) 01:15, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

@Anarchyte: We should not do that. Again, our transcriptions are diaphonemic, which means that they cover multiple varieties of English at once. Brits would not pronounce the name with /ɒ/, only /ɑː/ (or /æ/, if they didn't know Schatz's preference).

It doesn't give that impression. Shat is pronounced with /æ/, not /ɑː/

Nobody is saying that though. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 01:19, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Mind my ignorance as I haven't worked in this area before, but there is a difference between father and shots. This is a demonstration of the pronunciation of his name. This isn't a discussion on whether castle is pronounced cahsle or carsle (depending on the emphasis on 'a') but rather someone's name. Shouldn't we stick to what he says is the pronunciation of his name is and not try to cater for the possibility that someone doesn't pronounce 'a' the same way as him? Anarchyte (work | talk) 01:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

@Anarchyte: Yes. For you. For Schatz and most other Americans, there isn't - see Phonological history of English low back vowels#Father–bother merger. Schatz's surname is pronounced like the word shots as pronounced by an American, not a Brit or an Australian, who have different vowels in shots and father. If Schatz was aware of that he would've answered the question differently. But he wasn't.

In native words, the grapheme ⟨a⟩ never stands for /ɒ/ in this position. Brits would definitely not use it (German ⟨a⟩ never stands for /ɔ/, the vowel that is closest phonetically to British /ɒ/), what they would use is /æ/ because it matches the length of German /a/ (the vowel used in the German pronunciation of Schatz) or /ɑː/, but only after having learned that that's Schatz's pronunciation of choice. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 01:39, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the clarification. I see now you were right all along, cheers for being patient . Anarchyte (work | talk) 01:48, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

@Anarchyte: No problem. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 01:56, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Dutch pronunciation

Hello Kbb2, I'm curious about your claim that the Dutch word 'van' is pronounced differently depending on whether it's said in isolation or not. I'm Dutch and I always pronounce 'van' as [vɑn]. The pronunciation [ɑrt fɑn dɛr ˈstøːr] seems strange to me. Is it a dialect? We also don't ever pronounce 'den' as [dɛm] ([1]), as far as I'm aware. Should I also pronounce Den Haag as [dɛm ˈɦaːx] instead of [dɛn ˈɦaːx]? Regards, Jeroen N (talk) 18:45, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

This is starting to look extra silly now that you're changing vɑn to fɑm. Could you please respond to my question (i.e. provide a reliable source) before continuing these changes? Jeroen N (talk) 19:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@Jeroen N: That's what I wanted to do, but I choose to finish editing this particular batch of transcriptions because I know that they are correct. At least most of them are, that I know for sure. If there are any genuine errors in my transcriptions, let me know after you've done some reading on the phonetics of Dutch. Being a native speaker doesn't give you much advantage here, my transcriptions are for the most part based on reputable sources.

Please read [2] this (search for "assimilation", "devoicing" etc.) and then tell me which transcriptions are wrong. We can't enclose the IPA within slashes and then transcribe words as if they were pronounced in isolation. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 20:00, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for this, Kbb2. That looks very interesting. I didn't mean to imply that your contributions aren't based on reputable sources. My apologies if it came across that way. I was just curious because it seemed odd to me, seeing as according to Help:IPA/Dutch 'f' is pronounced as the 'f' in the Dutch word 'fiets' (maybe I don't understand IPA as well as I thought I did). Your source says you're right and I'm not a linguist, so who am I to argue? Thanks for indulging me. Jeroen N (talk) 20:28, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@Jeroen N: Geen probleem. And on second thought, I think I should've been nicer (or more neutral at least). I apologize for my tone.

We could, at some point, switch our Dutch transcriptions to phonemic (which would be a massive project), in which case van would always be transcribed /vɑn/ and den /dɛn/. I thought about doing this myself but I realized that's just too much work for me.

I'm also not a linguist (and I speak only a little Dutch, I just understand how it's pronounced). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 21:58, 21 June 2018 (UTC)