Kategreen77

Hello, Kategreen77! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! — Mikhailov Kusserow (talk) 09:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: edit a page • upload and use images Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community Portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Pages needing attention • Peer review Miscellaneous User name • User pages • Talk pages Clean up: General - Spam - Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

hi there (whaling edit)

Hi there,

I just wanted to explain why I reverted one of your edits on the whaling article (your other ones were good, as far as I could see).

To this text...

[Someone-or-other] said that the average time taken for a whale to die after being shot was the same as or less than that of animals killed by big game hunters on safari. Whalers also say that the free-roaming lifestyle of whales followed by a quick death is less cruel than the long-term suffering of factory-farmed animals.

..you added:

This is disputed by animal welfare experts; WSPA released a report in 2008 entitled Whaling: Defying international commitments to animal welfare?, in which the welfare implications of whaling are compared – unfavorably – with a culturally neutral standard for animal welfare in the form of slaughter guidelines from the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE).

I've deleted that because as far as I could see (and I did take a look at the report), it only refers to *slaughter* standards, whereas if you read the first part again, particularly the last sentence, the whalers' argument goes considerably beyond the scope of the simple moment (or moments!) of slaughter -- it's saying whales' *lives* have been free, as opposed to those of farmed, particularly factory-farmed animals, and that this should be taken into account in terms of the animal-welfare argument between whaling and farming. Therefore I don't really see it as a valid riposte.

If you wanted to dispute the part about the safari standards, again I didn't see anything about safari in that report (just did a word-search for 'safari' so I'm assuming there isn't), however, if you did want to dispute that part, I would advise putting it directly after that sentence (ie in between the two sentences I quoted in the first portion).

Hope that all makes sense. Anyway I did write an edit summary, but just wanted to drop you a line so it didn't seem rude or aggressive (having edits outright reverted can be a bit in-your-face when it happens to you, I know from personal experience!)

Cheers Jonathanmills (talk) 15:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, BTW, it looks like you've just joined Wikipedia! You might want to check these out, you can decorate your user page with them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Userboxes#Gallery :-) Jonathanmills (talk) 15:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi

Thanks for explaining your edit, I hope this is the right place to respond (you are right - I am new to Wiki and am working my way through the many - if helpful - help pages!).

As the second sentence, after the safari reference, starts with 'Whalers also say..', I had assumed these were separate points and was seeking to offer balance only to the second sentence, regarding the free-range issue. I wasn't addressing the safari point.

From a welfarist perspective (and as we have heard 'what whalers say' with no citation, I think it is appropriate to put this), the fact that the an animal suffers during slaughter is a different issue than whether it suffers during life. A happy life does not excuse a prolonged slaughter. I do see your point, that this does not flow exactly on from the argument before. I will think about how to reword it but may well add the report back in, as it was written by scientists and adds to the debate, it's not an emotional response to whaling, which would offer little food for thought.

At this year's IWC meeting several commissioners supported a move to work with or consult the OIE on this issue at the 2009 meeting, so this report will also help flag their potential role for those who follow the debate closely.

Thanks and best wishes Kategreen77 (talk) 11:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Hiya

Thanks for your reply. In terms of general Wikipedia practice, most people usually respond at the other person's talk page (you click the 'talk' hyperlink after their name and you're there) as this means they will get a notification that they've received a message. But some people prefer to respond on the same page, as you've done -- doesn't matter, except that this way it's relying on the other person to check for it, I guess.

Actually it's kind of nicer having it all on the same page, as you (and anyone else) can actually follow the conversation! (Check most people's talk pages and you will see what I mean -- it's always just one side visible).

As to your edit, I've just shifted the position slightly (and the wording, very slightly) to where it fits in with the overall paragraph, IMHO -- hope you approve :-) I don't think it's redundant or irrelevant info or anything.

As to the unreferenced nature of the certain points, the best thing to do (if you think it's an issue) is just add a 'citation needed' tag (can't remember off-hand how to do these, but if you find one and copy-and-paste the html it will do the trick). They do look a bit clunky, but you definitely shouldn't delete info just because it's unreferenced (not that you suggested that of course). Hopefully someone will come along (some day!) and find a reference for it, otherwise at least readers are made aware that it is unreferenced.

Anyway we are probably vaguely on opposite sides of the whaling issue, at a guess ;-) but I'm all for presenting both sides in a neutral manner (as per Wikipedia guidelines). Actually compared to some of the articles I've edited on, this one seems like nothing in terms of controversiality! (Hint: don't ever edit anything on recent Balkan history, particularly not Bosnia or Kosovo :-)

Kind regards Jonathanmills (talk) 15:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi again

That edit looks fair. I think the whole sub section could be better organised - it jumps around rather.

Best wishes Kategreen77 (talk) 15:14, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

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