Jverne2000

Your submission at Articles for creation: Ming Tsao (January 26)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Akevsharma was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

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Akevsharma (talk) 13:59, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Jverne2000! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Akevsharma (talk) 13:59, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Ming Tsao (April 29)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted because it included copyrighted content, which is not permitted on Wikipedia. You are welcome to write an article on the subject, but please do not use copyrighted work.

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- Rich^T|C|E-Mail 13:58, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia and copyright

Hello Jverne2000! Your additions to Draft:Ming Tsao have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the public domain or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a suitably-free and compatible copyright license. (To request such a release, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid copyright and plagiarism issues.

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It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be blocked from editing. If you have any questions about this, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. - Rich^T|C|E-Mail 14:01, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments.

I have resubmitted the article with your suggestions. 2A02:8109:B63F:D444:BCA7:C1FE:ACF8:B0F7 (talk) 11:44, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Ming Tsao (September 2)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Superboilles was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Ming Tsao and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
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Superboilles (talk) 20:53, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

Can you please help me with this article so that it is accepted?

I do not understand why. All of the sources are footnoted with references to putlished articles and interviews.

Thanks. Jverne2000 (talk) 07:47, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello again,

On the WP:Musicbio for composers is states:

Has written musical theatre of some sort (e.g., musicals, operas) that was performed in a notable theatre that had a reasonable run, as such things are judged in their particular situation, context, and time.

The composer has composed the opera Die Geisterinsel which was performed in the Stuttgart Opera House for a significant run of several weeks. This is footnoted in the Wiki article.

Has written a composition that has won (or in some cases been given a second or other place) in a major music competition not established expressly for newcomers.

The composer Ming Tsao won the Guggenheim Grant for his opera Mudan ting.

What else do you need to make this article accepted? Jverne2000 (talk) 08:03, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

With regards to musical theatre (WP:COMPOSER #2), you left out the part "that had a reasonable run". How long was the run at Stuttgart?

As for the Guggenheim fellowship, I don't believe this is a "major music competition", as intended in #4. Best, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

The run in Stuttgart was several weeks which is long for a contemporary new music opera and it was wrtten about in a published journal (see footnote).

The Guggenheim Award is a major award in the US for contemporary new music, the only award higher award would be a Pulitzer.

I have seen Wiki entries on composers with only a Guggenheim Award and no significant performances such as an opera. Jverne2000 (talk) 09:41, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I thought the Stuttgart run was six performances, over approx ten days? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:58, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't know. Do you have a source for this information? 2A02:8109:B63F:D444:F8F0:B339:98D0:59D8 (talk) 10:01, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

You do realise that when you're editing logged out of your account, your IP reveals your geolocation? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Operabase is the source, which is usually pretty accurate. Do you have a source that claims otherwise? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

No, I think Operabase is accurate.

What is your recommendation for making this article acceptable? Jverne2000 (talk) 10:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

If you cannot meet COMPOSER (and I would argue this hasn't been shown), then the only other option is to find sources that are sufficient to satisfy WP:GNG. Note that they need to provide significant coverage of the person, not their works. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:18, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Can you please explain what you mean by "If you cannot meet COMPOSER"? Jverne2000 (talk) 10:21, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Also, I am a little confused. I see Wiki entries for composers and artists who have received far less significant coverage than the article I have submitted. The article I wrote has significant footnotes. But also references to this composer's teaching positions and Guggenheim award (which cover the person and not the works). Jverne2000 (talk) 10:27, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Those sources (regarding the teaching positions and the G. award) are primary; we need to see significant coverage in secondary sources that are reliable and entirely independent of the subject.

As for "I see Wiki entries...", this is a common fallacy, comparing your draft with existing articles, rather than referring to the applicable guidelines and policies. Please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, which elaborates on this. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

A secondary source for his teaching would be his following interview in Sweden: http://tidskrift.nu/artikel.php?Id=8423:

“Konstmusik – bakgrund och identification: Kompositionsprofessorerna svarar,” Nutida Musik (1 – 2, 2012)"

And here is an interview I heard him give about his teaching in Hanover, Germany the Neue Musik Zeitung 2021.

neue musik: Experiment und Schönheit der Neuen Musik – Komponieren studieren an der HMTM Hannover

Von Margarete Zander. Ming Tsao und Gordon Williams unterrichten Komposition an der Hochschule für Musik, Theater und Medien Hannover. Was verstehen die beiden Komponisten selbst unter „komponieren“ und wie lösen sie den Anspruch der Ausbildung des Institutes Incontri, bei dem es heißt „Incontri schlägt aus der Begegnung von Traditionen und neuen aufregenden Fragestellungen Funken für eine Musik der Zukunft?“ Nicht nur Musikfans erhalten in diesen Gesprächen außergewöhnliche Anregungen zur Gestaltung von Zukunft. Jverne2000 (talk) 11:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Any sources which you wish to rely on to demonstrate notability must be cited in the draft. The reviewers won't go looking for them on your user talk page, let alone on the internet. The draft must be fully self-contained in terms of making a case for noteworthiness and providing evidence of notability. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:17, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I have added them to the draft.

Thanks for your help.

Is there anything else you think should be added (or deleted) to make this article acceptable? Jverne2000 (talk) 11:19, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

And can you remove the flag at the top? The article is written in a neutral way by only stating facts or quotations from published sources. Jverne2000 (talk) 11:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

"Can you please explain what you mean by "If you cannot meet COMPOSER"?" I mean, if you cannot demonstrate that the subject meets any of the six criteria in the COMPOSER guideline. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:36, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that this composer meets the first two criteria. His opera Die Geisterinsel we performed in the Stuttgart Opera House. But it was then given a run in the Gothenburg Opera Houose in 2016 under the Swedish title Prosperos Tradgard: https://gageego.se/nyheter/prosperos-tradgard/

But I see Wiki articles on composers where none of these six criteria are met. Only where they have taught. And there are several that only say they won a Guggenheim Award.

So it would seem that my entry should meet these criteria? Jverne2000 (talk) 10:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

It's not a question of whether you believe, but whether you can demonstrate with appropriate evidence. And even then it relies on the reviewer(s) agreeing on your interpretation of subjective terms such as "reasonable" and "major". For this reason, the general GNG standard is usually easier to meet, as it is much more objective: either the sources are there, or they're not. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:04, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Managing a conflict of interest

Hello, Jverne2000. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on the page Draft:Ming Tsao, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:

• avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization, clients, or competitors;
• propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the {{edit COI}} template);
• disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest § How to disclose a COI);
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• do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure.

Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

Thanks. I have edited and resubmitted the article. It is neutral and supported with published references. There is no conflict of interest or any close personal relation to the subject. Can you remove the flag of a conflict of interest so that is it appropriately reviewed? Jverne2000 (talk) 09:35, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

So how would you describe your relationship with this person, if not "close personal"? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I know his music quite well and have met him briefly at various festivals. 2A02:8109:B63F:D444:F8F0:B339:98D0:59D8 (talk) 10:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Ming Tsao (November 5)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Rich Smith was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Ming Tsao and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

- Rich^T|C|E-Mail 10:49, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Ming Tsao has been accepted

Ming Tsao, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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InterstellarGamer12321 (talk | contribs) 07:29, 20 November 2023 (UTC)