User talk:Jclemens/Archive 15

Sea Dragon Heir‎‎

Would you be willing to update this article to bring it into compliance if I withdraw the AFD? - UtherSRG (talk) 15:45, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

No. Not my job. Your job is WP:BEFORE, and my pointing out that you didn't do YOUR job doesn't obligate me to do yours. If I did it once, I would be doing nothing but fixing problems that other people point out, and so this has been my policy for quite some time as Piotrus and others can attest. I've demonstrated, preliminarily, that the topic, in its ideal state, is worthy of a Wikipedia article. There's a lack of willingness of people who nominate articles for deletion to actually fix them with supplied evidence--it's clearly not just you--but I'm not going to be an enabler here. Withdraw the AfD and it goes back to the "waiting for someone to fix it" pile, just like millions of other worthy but currently less than adequate articles. Jclemens (talk) 16:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

It is fine that you aren't to person to do it. But since you aren't, then I'll leave the AFD in place so that perhaps someone else will. I'd rather WP:TNT this article that has sat on the "fix it" pile for at least 13 years than just leave it be. It's obvious that this article, which is just one line of info, other than the plot and character, is not going to be improved without the AFD. I'm not able to write a decent article on the book, that's not my forte. I have found plenty of folks willing to fix articles I've AFD'd, so will continue to use that discussion forum to either get articles fixed up or removed. Fixing or removing it improves the encyclopedia. I don't care which way it goes. If it goes, it leaves a hole that someone else might be willing to fill by creating it from scratch. Lastly, there's no need to shout YOUR. I am well aware of WP:BEFORE. I asked nicely, and you shouted in your response. There was no call for that. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:22, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

You asked nicely? Fine, sure, you did that. But did you ask appropriately? Absolutely not, and you've just demonstrated your intent to misuse the AfD process, which is a conduct issue: ... will continue to use that discussion forum to either get articles fixed up or removed is a fundamental and premeditated violation of WP:AFDNOTCLEANUP. If you were so bad at editing Wikipedia that you were not able to write a decent article on the book that currently is just one line of info, other than the plot and character, then that would arguably be a WP:CIR issue. But I'm sure that's not the case. You are perfectly capable, as demonstrated by your conversation here, of writing enough about the article subject to demonstrate that notability is met, so the next person coming along who doesn't understand WP:NEXIST doesn't feel the need to nominate it for deletion. As far as all caps being shouting? I'm so old that I still do that for single words for emphasis, rather than using the Wiki-markup for bolding; I'm sorry that you interpreted that as shouting. Jclemens (talk) 16:36, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

SmallCat dispute case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Evidence. Please add your evidence by August 4, 2023, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 13:04, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Query about closure of DRV

Thank you for closing the discussion of Lewis(baseball) at WP:Deletion review/Log/2023 July 16. I wanted to query your closing statement "No consensus to overturn merge outcome." While literally true, it seems to understate, in my view, the clear consensus to Endorse User:Ritchie333's close as a correct reading of the AfD. While some of the comments at the DRV expressed reservations about the result of the AfD, I don't see any that expressed disagreement with the close itself. And, in particular, no one prefaced a comment with Overturn or Relist. From a content perspective, I know that it doesn't really make any difference, but from an Admin discretion perspective I know that I would have rather seen one of my closes Endorsed rather than sustained with No Consensus to overturn. Thanks for your time and for your contributions to deletion discussions in general. Eluchil404 (talk) 06:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

You're right: that was an intentional understated response. The numbers speak for themselves, there's no need to rub in that not one single person supported the appellant. It was not my intent to undermine the original close, but just be decent to the poor chap who got roundly rejected in what appears to be a good-faith appeal. Jclemens (talk) 06:32, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks for the reply. Eluchil404 (talk) 06:47, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Re: Snorlax AfD

I felt it was better to state here directly than to hash it out on the AfD itself, but while I understand you are a hard inclusionist, please assume some good faith. This is the third time I've asked you for that, and yet you continue trying to come across as rude. If you feel I'm doing something off, take it to RfC, not through insults on the AfD page. Additionally I openly stated in the AfD I want to be proven wrong on the matter and not merge the article, so please don't assume how I "want the discussion to go".-- Kung Fu Man (talk) 07:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Kung Fu Man Please don't open a discussion with an insult--even if you don't necessarily see it as such. I am not now, nor have I ever been a hard inclusionist. I self-describe as a curationist, and have done so for well over a decade. I trust an appropriate apology to be forthcoming, and will address the subsequent point contingent on that assumption of good faith.

As far as insults, curiously persistent, and non-policy-based, complaints about certain sourcing. may be uncomfortable, but it is based on behavior, not assumption of motives. If you take objection to And, of course, once you've been shown to be playing fast and loose interpreting guidelines in such a weirdly inaccurate interpretation favorable to your desired outcome... no amount of badgering helps. as assuming your desired outcome... your objection is nonsensical and I question how it can be made in good faith since 1) You nominated the article for deletion discussion, and in doing so did not mention any WP:ATD such as redirection or merging. 2) You have four separate comments replying to keep !voters disagreeing with their positions on sourcing. Any reasonable person would see that as advocating for deletion. If you're objecting to the term badgering, I grant that your behavior is not unequivocally covered under WP:BADGER, but is consistent with Offering a rebuttal to a comment is also fine, although arguing repetitively is not. Jclemens (talk) 14:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Considering that the last time this came up you made an accusation of user conduct borne out of a lack of due diligence on your part to make sure you knew what you were talking about, I think making bad-faith commentary on the motives of users you disagree with is a significantly worse user conduct issue, an actively detrimental to the AfD process. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 11:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Cukie Gherkin restoring to address: You made an unprompted user conduct accusation against me. Deleting your immediately prior does not, in and of itself, resolve the issue. Please clarify your intent in writing by choosing one of two options and commenting further as you see fit:

1) You agree that your prior comments were not only inappropriate but untrue and never worthy of pursuing in any forum, now or in the future. Your acceptance will be understood as an apology for these inappropriate comments, and I will drop the matter.

2) You stand by your comments, but you do not have an interest in pursuing them at this time. In this case, your non-apology must be fleshed out with specifics or it will be understood to be a personal attack under WP:WIAPA bullet point six: Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence, usually in the form of diffs and links. (policy links not preserved in quote)

Either is welcome and will be addressed appropriately. Jclemens (talk) 14:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

It's not an apology, I just find that the way you behave in AfDs to be unacceptable, referring to both Snorlax's and Alisa Bosconovitch's. In both cases, you made comments about the nominating editor, and in Alisa's case, the accusation was even more absurd, There, you accused Kung Fu Man of a user conduct issue and, when pressed, you failed to actually elaborate on any policy that Kung Fu Man violated. and even made clear that your accusation of user conduct was made without you verifying whether there was any merit to your accusation. The very notion that a person should not be able to remove abjectly bad content from an article is a bad thing is completely unsupported by any policy, and yet you levied that accusation. So, to me, my user conduct accusation is you making, by your definition, personal attacks against other users. What policy was violated by Kung Fu Man re: Alisa Bosconovitch to justify accusations of bad user conduct? I would be delighted for you to elaborate. :) - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:23, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

No links, no diffs, no specifics: understand that you are in violation of WP:NPA, and please try to follow policy when you're complaining about someone's behavior. Do better.

Nominating editors have obligations to conduct themselves in a forthright and transparent manner; as I mentioned in the AfD you cited (but didn't link to) disclosing that the editor in question had deleted multiple sources from the nominated article as inadequate months prior to the AfD nomination would have been perfectly forthright and transparent. Failing to do so is more characteristic of tendentious editing, something that any editor should call out as improper, and which no good-faith editor should defend.

You may also not like that I prefer a Fruit of the poisonous tree approach to AfD nominator conduct. That is certainly a legitimate topic on which good editors can disagree, but rather than asking for blocks or other such punitive and ineffective sanctions against nominators not adhering to appropriate standards, I prefer the nomination be dismissed with prejudice as a way to discourage such nominator behavior: to those who look at deleting articles as a 'win' this imposes a 'loss' that is no more than retaining the status quo. Jclemens (talk) 21:42, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

This is an essay, not a policy or guideline, and I vehemently disagree that someone needs to meticulously document edits they made months prior to remove bad content. What is significantly worse to me is that you do not need to do even the bare minimum to verify whether what they removed was of even subjective value - and to this day, you cannot identify a single source that Kung Fu Man removed which shouldn't have been removed. Your comment was also incredibly misleading, implying that the user intentionally nominated it in a reduced state in order to present a weaker version of the article. This is an accusation that holds no water whatsoever, as checking the facts behind the matter will show that the AfD was nominated months after the edits were made, even if KFM merged the article shortly after cleanup. A valuable rule to follow on Wikipedia is to apply common sense. Is removing copyrighted material prior to an AfD bad? Is removing vandalism prior to an AfD bad? Obviously not, and no one would expect someone to clarify that they did.

Secondly, let me look at WP:TE to see how it applies.

List

• Partisan, biased, skewed, and does not maintain an editorially neutral point of view - Inapplicable, no bias demonstrated
• Repeated attempts to remove or add disputed content - Inapplicable, when KFM was reverted he went to AfD
• Behavior that tends to frustrate proper editorial processes and discussions - The only thing that vaguely applies. However;
• This is more than just an isolated edit - Did you verify whether KFM has a history of this before making the accusation?
• This will cover the rest of the lead, basically: things wholly inapplicable. NPOV, consensus, edit warring, gaming the system, abuse of process, disruption to make a point, "I didn't hear that," single purpose accounts, not being here to build an encyclopedia

And many others

In fact, looking into this, the edits KFM made were explicitly the removal of content that violated this essay: "Adding citations that are inadequate, ambiguous or not sufficiently explicit" The removals on KFM's part, months before the AfD, were of content that was in blatant violation of this. Point 10, meanwhile, could apply if you didn't verify that you didn't examine what KFM actually removed; however, seeing as you did, it seems like attempting to cite something you pulled out of nowhere to address the fact that your aspersions were without proper basis.

Ironically, the only relevant point in this essay is the part you violate: "Accusing others of tendentious editing". It's an inflammatory accusation, especially knowing that you failed to do due diligence to check what KFM removed was of even subjective value. This essay tells you to, instead of making accusations of behavior against an editor you believe is editing tendentiously, to cite the policy or guideline they are violating. To me, it begs the question: what policy or guideline was violated? If it is wiser to point them out, why didn't you point them out? Because as it is, it seems you run afoul of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and are scraping together the weakest justification for why you made the aspersion against KFM. And KFM and I are not the only ones who think that way - multiple other users in the AfD identified your behavior as not being acceptable, to which you lashed out at them. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:17, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Sigh. I leave this alone to give you a chance to fix it, but again: no links, no diffs, no specifics, and thus yet another WP:NPA violation. Let's stop giving you rope, and instead cut to the chase, shall we: How did I irritate you in one or more of your prior or other accounts? Jclemens (talk) 04:43, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Goodness. [1] " this series of edits by the nominator invalidates the entire premise of the AfD: decimating an article and then nominating it for deletion is a user conduct issue and should be addressed as such before considering any such discussion valid." This is a violation of WP:NPA by your standards. And it is a violation of WP:TE, because you disregard the rule made specifically for someone like you, to not behave in an inflammatory way when responding to tendentious editing. If you can identify what I said to you as a personal attack, but not what you said to KFM as a personal attack, I don't know what to tell you. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:51, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

You appear to be under the impression that this conversation is about me. It's not. It's about your WP:NPA violations, and I again repeat the current question: How did I irritate you in one or more of your prior or other accounts? Jclemens (talk) 02:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not interested in a discussion with someone accused by multiple people of casting WP:ASPERSIONS and violating WP:NPA who, at the same time, complains if someone merely makes the exact same comment towards them as they do to others. Consider why everyone thinks you're the one in the wrong. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 02:42, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

You are not discussing anything with me; you have violated NPA multiple times in the opportunity I gave you to repudiate the initial personal attack you posted on this page and then retracted, and are attempting to deflect the conversation away from your problematic behavior rather than apologize for it. Again, for a third time: How did I irritate you in one or more of your prior or other accounts? Jclemens (talk) 02:55, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I came by to see if you responded to what I said, and reading through this I think you need to understand you're the one making personal attacks and accusations, even in this. "Let's stop giving you rope"? You really can't see how that comes across? Dude you're not an admin, you have just as much authority as anyone else here, so please give it a rest. The interactions I've had with you here and here are venomous, consisting of personal swipes, veiled accusations and all around just mean spirited behavior in what should be a more professional atmosphere so we can properly ascertain the validity of articles even beyond the AfD in question. And I reckon I'm not the only one you've behaved that way towards, especially when the coup de grace in all this is when I look at your talk page history, Cukie was willing to not engage you after reconsidering and you not only purposefully restored their comment but came at them swinging around policy.

YOU sought this fight out. And I'd really rather it end so we can behave professionally towards each other here on out.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:45, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi, Kung Fu Man... I'm sorry, were you meaning to open with the apology that I AGF'ed you intended, when you took the initiative to address me on my talk page and opened with what I reasonably perceived to be an insult? Jclemens (talk) 03:04, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Sir, I've said my fill on this matter and stand by it. Good day to you.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:17, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry you've chosen not to continue in hope of finding common ground, but I respect your effort at a graceful exit. Feel free to reopen the discussion later should you choose to. Jclemens (talk) 03:20, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Technomage (Babylon 5)

Your edit

Here are some background info from me as as the original merger (as a non B5 viewer): Technomage_(Babylon_5) got merged as part of a larger B5 cleanup process in 2019 into Civilizations in Babylon 5, which in turn was merged into List of Babylon 5 characters in 2020. As there aren't any mentionworthy Technomages in Babylon 5, any info on that race got lost inadvertantly. I see now that Galen was a main character in the 1-season spinoff show Crusade (TV series), and there is some franchise stuff going on with Technomages (video game, book trilogy).

While I (still) fully believe that this race should not have a stand-alone article on wikipedia (lack of notability, plot, the usual), I feel this topic could maybe stand a chance if it gets reformatted and expanded into a franchise/spinoff-media article. Are you knowledgable and/or willing to help out a bit here so that AfD can get avoided? – sgeureka ^t•c 11:32, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Sgeureka thanks for addressing this here. Yes, I have tons of B5 dead tree resources, which I last catalogued in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/G'Kar. Moreso on the "Core" B5 stuff, rather than Crusade, but both existed before The Internet was a thing, and so there's a lot more to contribute to notability than can be found via Google. The problem is, I don't have time to address everything.

Because this article got merged to oblivion, I de-merged it. I don't have a problem with a re-merger, but it should be done in a manner that doesn't eliminate all the information--that's my beef with the end result of previous mergers. Babylon 5 (franchise)#The Technomage Trilogy, Crusade (TV series), and The Geometry of Shadows (which you redirected, but again... I have enough to demonstrate notability for every B5 episode but not the time to implement it) are all good spots for some of this to go. It would still be reasonable to have this article, more or less as it stands now, at some point in the future. Based on our attribution rules, I don't see any reason why this can't be merged to multiple different articles, even if it only can redirect to one. Thanks, Jclemens (talk) 16:08, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Proposed decision posted for the SmallCat dispute case

The proposed decision in the SmallCat dispute has been posted. You are invited to review this decision and draw the arbitrators' attention to any relevant material or statements. Comments may be brought to the attention of the committee on the proposed decision talk page. For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 10:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Gary Gygax

Gary Gygax has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 00:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Better Off Dead edit

Hi there! I had reverted your edits re: "Arrested by You" because: (1) it was unsourced information and I am currently in the process of cleaning up that page. In fact, you can see I had flagged that section as needing more sources, as it's largely WP:OR at this point, so I think we should focus on finding refs and not adding new unsourced info; (2) as far as I can see, that cover does not meet notability requirements for cover songs anyway, as outlined in WP:NSONG. A song that limped to #70 in the UK and nowhere else would not seem to necessitate a mention, but I'm open to hearing arguments to the contrary. However, I do thank you for bringing the cover to my attention, because I had no knowledge of it existing before and I enjoyed hearing it. Anyway, I hope we can resolve this amicably. Cheers.—The Keymaster (talk) 07:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Also, if I'm not mistaken, using another article on WP as a source of sorts is considered WP:CIRCULAR. In fact I tried that myself many years ago, when I was a fledgling editor, and got piled on for it.— The Keymaster (talk) 07:59, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

So, the fact that a song is on an album is exactly the sort of evidence that doesn't generally need anything more than primary sourcing. Do we need someone commenting about it? No, because it's not an opinion, it's not controversial... it's just a fact, unless there's some sort of dispute. Facts don't need notability, per WP:NNC, which leads to the second issue.

As far as whether to include it or not... why not? You've posted a great argument why "Arrested by You" doesn't get its own article. We're agreed on that. What I haven't seen is any reason not to mention the fact in arguably the most relevant article. I went ahead and added it to Reputation (Dusty Springfield album) as well, but there's no particular reason not to have two-way pointers between the first recording and the one that charted. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 02:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

So, basically, mentioning its existence in an article would fall under the same parameters as something like, say, WP:TRACKLISTING, which doesn't require a secondary source or explicit citation?

As for its notability, my initial feeling was that it might fall under something like WP:INDISCRIMINATE, but maybe not. The same kind of thing that has discouraged the inclusion of those ubiquitous "In popular culture" or "Cover songs" sections for albums/songs in recent years. Do I have that wrong? If so, maybe I reacted too hastily.

Thanks.— The Keymaster (talk) 06:28, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't normally do a lot of music-specific work, only incidentally as it intersects with other topics (Sci-Fi media, mostly) that I do work in regularly, so I wouldn't be able to give a solid opinion on how it's done elsewhere. Again--elements of articles don't need to be notable, but that's such a common misunderstanding of how notability works. They just have to be otherwise appropriate and not UNDUE. Want to see if any talk page stalkers chime in on this one, or if no one does, seek a WP:3O? Jclemens (talk) 06:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. I could also pitch this to WT:ALBUMS and see what they think, but it can sometimes be difficult to get discussion going over there.— The Keymaster (talk) 06:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

That would be fine. I'm not married to my desired outcome, and am open to input from others as to how such things are most commonly handled. Jclemens (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Wikipedia:You are not irreplaceable

Wikipedia:You are not irreplaceable, a page which you created or substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:You are not irreplaceable and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Wikipedia:You are not irreplaceable during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. CatmanBw (talk) 01:02, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Malawi

Malawi has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Dan the Animator 07:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Refideas editnotice

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Editor experience invitation

Hi Jclemens :) I'm looking to interview people here, feel free to pass if you're not interested. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 08:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

George Griffith at WP:FAC

Hi! George Griffith is at WP:FAC, see WP:Featured article candidates/George Griffith/archive1, and I figured this might be of interest to you based on your participation at WP:Articles for deletion/George Griffith. If you are interested in weighing in on the FAC, your input would be appreciated. TompaDompa (talk) 08:58, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite, but I don't have the bandwidth to meaningfully contribute to an FA process at the moment. Jclemens (talk) 17:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Invitation

Hello Jclemens, we need experienced volunteers.

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Administrator Conduct Case 2024-1: Mzajac opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Administrator Conduct Case 2024-1: Mzajac. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Administrator Conduct Case 2024-1: Mzajac/Evidence. Please add your evidence by January 30, 2024, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Administrator Conduct Case 2024-1: Mzajac/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 17:55, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Created article "American Academy of Physician Associates"

Hi Jclemens! I just created the article "American Academy of Physician Associates." When preparing to create a redirect for "American Academy of Physician Associates", I saw that the article you had created for "American Academy of Physician Associates" been moved to the draft space User:Jclemens/American Academy of Physician Associates. I did not notice this until after I had created the article. I just thought I'd let you know in case you wanted to work on it. Thanks! Wikipedialuva (talk) 07:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I have ideas on how to proceed, but I haven't had time. I was collaborating with Rod Hooker on this, but got swamped with doctoral studies and never really made progress. Feel free to use anything in the draft article or pick my brain on any part of it, but still don't have a lot of time, as I've been growing my own practice for the past couple of years. Jclemens (talk) 07:11, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and the work on that article isn't just mine--it was deleted previously, so was parked in my user space for an overhaul... which again, never really got done. Jclemens (talk) 07:12, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Conflict of interest management: Case opened

Hello Jclemens,

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conflict of interest management. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conflict of interest management/Evidence. Please add your evidence by March 20, 2024, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conflict of interest management/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration.

For the Arbitration Committee,
~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Just for posterity's stake or any talk page watchers, I have no evidence, just noted in the case request that the interplay of private evidence/outing and COI guidelines needs committee guidance as there are people who read the policies' interaction in very different ways. Jclemens (talk) 00:49, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Being wrong on the internet

Hey — I see that the duo of Piotrus and TompaDompa are getting under your skin. I agree that TompaDompa is super confident for a guy that is absolutely wrong about what he's talking about. But I hope that we can take a step back and just let the AfD close as Keep, which it will. TompaDompa will go and be wrong somewhere else, and life will go on. I wish you all the best. Toughpigs (talk) 02:28, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the concern. Hmm, I don't think they're getting under my skin any more than the "it must be fixed RIGHT NOW or deleted" crowd usually does. But I've been dealing with such arguments for at least 15 years, and I genuinely don't care what people think about me, so I suppose I might be coming across as too brusque.

I actually like to hash things out in individual AfDs, because you end up with a few people max, and when you get 20+ people discussing stuff on a policy page, it gets too muddled to follow coherently. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Thanks again. Jclemens (talk) 03:59, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

You are two of my favorite Wikipedians, just got to say. :) BOZ (talk) 05:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

March 2024

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, such as at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Visoki Dečani, (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:

1. Add four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment, or
2. With the cursor positioned at the end of your comment, click on the signature button located above the edit window.

This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is necessary to allow other editors to easily see who wrote what and when.

Remember the 4 tildes, or the Wikipedia monster will come out from under your bed and eat all your barnstars. Personhumanperson (talk) 04:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi. I'm going to assume I know you under a different name. Either that, or you really don't know WP:DTTR or how to use {{unsigned}}. Whichever, wow, what an overly dramatic way to point out I forgot to sign a post. You're going far! Jclemens (talk) 05:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Priyanka Choudhary

Sir what can we do so that we get a fair chance to create an article of Priyanka Choudhary in Wikipedia? We tried all possible mean by maintaining WP:CIVILity and WP:good faith. We do not want to repeat the mistakes which her earlier fans made but we do wish for a fair chance. 117.209.242.154 (talk) 05:51, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Where is Kate? for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Where is Kate? is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Where is Kate? (3rd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 11:46, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. Jclemens (talk) 06:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello

Can you help me with your opinion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yuuki (Sword Art Online Character) The dogcat (talk) 05:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

What do you need help with? Writing a good Wikipedia article about Yuuki? I'm not the best person to help; what availability I do have I usually funnel into processes like AfD and DRV just because there is so much to learn to participate well there. Jclemens (talk) 06:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jclemens, Thanks but can you check the opinions? The dogcat (talk) 08:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Recreation of Where is Kate?

Please don't recreate this redirect without consensus. If you feel the AfD decision to not leave a redirect was incorrect, or that the closer's summary was inaccurate, please take this up via Wikipedia:Deletion review. — The Anome (talk) 09:51, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I see that @Ingenuity: has changed their mind (see discussion on their talk page). Given this, I've undeleted the page and restored it to your version with the redirect. I will also unprotect it. — The Anome (talk) 10:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi, The Anome, and thanks for the notifications. I'm just up and won't have time to respond in detail until later, but do you understand that your deletion of the redirect was an IAR move not authorized by speedy deletion policy? If not, I can go through things with you on both why 1) deleting the redirect wasn't an appropriate action in the first place, and 2) keeping a redirect there is actually the more encyclopedic outcome. No rush to get back to me on this--I believe this is far more important than it is urgent. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 15:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It seemed like the correct action at the time as the result of the AfD until I realised it wasn't, but think we've quickly reached a result that satisfied everyone and is completely policy-compliant. I'm happy to apologise for my temporary deletion of the redirect, if that will help. — The Anome (talk) 16:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Apology accepted, but just for future reference, I have the time to go through my reasoning. I've been around working in ATDs for more time than most editors, so here's what prompted me to do what I did:

1) AfD says no article, and BLP concerns are an issue. Fair enough, good starting point.

2) AfD also agrees that the title is terrible--keepers or deleters, even the original author decided it was a bad idea.

2a) ...but it's not G10 bad. It's tacky and certainly offensive, and while many people agree with that, no one seriously argued that the title, as a title, was inherently offensive, but rather the content at that problematic title was. As I noted {{R from non-neutral name}} is for handling just such situations.

3) So what about the AfD consensus? There's two ways to read "no redirect"

3a) No redirect, meaning the content is deleted rather than the closing admin just retargeting the page to turn it into a redirect. This has the effect of hiding all the content that is asserted to be BLP violations (which I personally doubt, but never went through the article looking for issues), or

3b) No redirect ever, delete it and salt it. As you'll note the closing admin did not create-protect the title.

Which brings us to the question: should no redirect ever exist at that point? In general, the point of redirects to a more neutral name is to assume that good faith readers hitting a bad link should be redirected to the right place, and bad faith readers should be exposed to the proper way Wikipedia chooses to cover the controversial topic. Either way, redirects are cheap and one should exist somewhere unless the title is per se G10 level abuse or the link was so new that no one would accidentally land on it. Or, perhaps, if the title was too new and not worth redirecting. With 61 page watchers and 77+k pageviews, even though attenuating over time, it's reasonable to assume that someone, somewhere, might land on whatever showed up at that previous name, even if redirected from a non-Wikipedia source. I don't know that we have any hard and fast rules on this one, so call it a judgment call.

My choice to recreate was based on the assumption that 3a was the desired outcome, and 3b was an overly strict reading of the closing admin's statement: there was absolutely support for retaining neither title nor content, but also a belief that the proper content should be given DUE weight in Catherine's real bio article. Again, this was informed by a lack of general clamor to G10 the entire thing (and CSD's aren't applied, in general, when good editors differ over the applicability) and the closing admin's not salting the title. Oh, on a technical policy level, CSD-G4 doesn't apply to redirects created after an AfD, because a redirect is not substantially identical to the deleted article. If it had been deleted at RfD, future creations would be G4 eligible, but that's not what happened, and I was thus aware that this might spawn a future discussion, but did not believe it to be speedy deletable as such.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk on redirects after controversial deletions. Jclemens (talk) 18:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

"Where is Kate?" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Where is Kate? has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 14 § Where is Kate? until a consensus is reached. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 21:59, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. I disagree, as you might suspect. Jclemens (talk) 22:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)