JøMa

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Image of Baltic Sea

The old, very erroneous, "Ostsee" map

Dear JøMa! I apologize for having rolled back your replacement of one German map to another in Russian article Baltics. I understand your motives concerning possible misspelling on the image (BTW where?), and don't oppose them. However the original choice of this particular map (if I correctly understand the pre-history of the article) was based on two main grounds. That is, to show Russian reader, that

• The German name for the see was 'Ostsee' (up to 1840s it was transcribed in Russian from German), and also that
• the common name for the southern-eastern shore of this see is 'Baltikum' in German. This toponym is missing on your map.

Basically, I am not against even 'forgetting' about 'Baltikum' in the Russian article, if the matter of spelling mistakes overweights, in your opinion. So please do not consider my rollback as a 'final and unilateral decision' :) - I'm open to continue the discussion with you.

Since I don't visit both Wikipedias (Russian and English) daily, and even weekly, you may use the 'e-mail the user' option to call me back here ’asap’ (=as soon as possible).

Sincerely, Cherurbino (talk) 19:10, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi Cherubino,

I don't read this English page frequently either (as de:wp is my home wiki), but I'm sure we'll keep in touch somehow! :)

There were indeed many reasons to get rid of the old, very erroneous, map:

1. The phantasy copyright stamp in the lower right corner is not existent nor compatible.
2. Finland is included in "Skandinavien", which is wrong.
3. Too many abbreviations caused by choice of inappropriate font and size.
4. "Fyn" must be "Fünen" in German.
5. "Kategat" must be spelled "Kattegat".
6. "Tallin" must be spelled "Tallinn".
7. "Petersburg" does not exist. It is "St. Petersburg".
8. "Liepäja" with a trema/umlaut does not exist. It is "Liepāja" with a macron.
9. "Klaipeda" is spelled "Klaipėda" with an ė.
10. "Aland" is spelled "Åland" with an Å.
11. "Gdansk" is spelled "Gdańsk" with an ń, and called "Danzig" in German anyway.
12. "Ösel" is called "Saaremaa" today. "Ösel" is an outdated historic German name.
13. "Dagö" is called "Hiiumaa" today. "Dagö" is an outdated historic Swedish name.

So, you see there is a dozen mistakes in this old map. To be honest, I am going to recommend a deletion on commons.

Best wishes from Germany! --JøMa (talk) 12:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

de:user:NordNordWest added the words "Skandinaven" and "Baltikum" to his new map file:Übersichtskarte_Ostsee.svg so I re-replaced the last usage in ru:wp, too. I hope you agree with this solution. Have a nice day -- JøMa (talk) 20:33, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

---

Hi, JøMa! First, thank you for calling me back to this page.

Second, let me comment upon some groups of mistakes you've carefully pointed out above.

• a) Diacritical marks. Within the scope of a local usage of the certain latin-based language all these accents, umlauts et. al. really matter. However when you make a map for the international use, the optimal and commonly used choice is to avoid them, replacing with diphtongs by necessity.

Why? Because each country has its own set of diacritical marks (English and Italian have none). So, this is a country-specific case. For example, "ė" in Klaipėda is used only in Lithuania. Nobody in France, Britain or Germany has it on his keyboard; classic foundries do not have such glyphs - so they replace it with "e". Same thing relates to Gdansk vs Gdańsk etc.

For German umlauts there's an option either to replace them with diphtongs (usually adding 'e', like ü=>"ue"), or to omit them.

• b) Finland certainly belongs to Scandinavia geographically, since its northern part resides wothin the Scandinavian Peninsula.

• с) St.Petersburg was (before 1914) and is still (after 1991) very often simplified to Petersburg, both in European and Russian languages. In Germany, during the WW2, "Petersburg" also was used to replace "Leningrad". If you happen to read any of Russian classics (Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky etc.) you shall never encounter the "St." prefix. Since this practice is appropriate in literature and in common usage, I think it shall not be a big mistake not to overload the map with the extra letters :).

Sincerely, Cherurbino (talk) 18:05, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Cherurbino!

Hmm, honestly I disagree in all points! :)

1. Diacritical signs should be used correctly everywhere. The local character set of Germany does not at all matter when talking about Latvian cities. I know the wikipedias are not all the same precise in this, but at least the English and German wikipedia always (want to) spell foreign names correctly, see here for example.
2. It is a common error that Finland was on the Scandinavian peninsula. It is not. However, in some sciences it is seen together with the Scandinavian countries (which are, literally, only Norway and Sweden; even Denmark is not really on the peninsula).
3. Historical names do not matter here. The official name is Санкт-Петербург, not Петербург. Petersburg is (nowadays) as incorrect as Ösel and Dagö. Try to write "Karl-Marx-Stadt" in a map of Saxony; people will tell you their opinion about historical names in today use. :)

Best wishes --JøMa (talk) 07:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

---

Let's stop here, the map is being discussed on commons.

---

About your reverts on my contributions

If something exists for a while on a page that doesn't means if that's true, based on references behshahr is not in the statistics on Mazandaran page --Labelooch (talk) 08:03, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Might be true, but you need to give sources for what you claim. --JøMa (talk) 09:01, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

By the way, see here (Behshahr is the most right pink area) and here (row 928 and following are "بهشهر" or Behshahr). No more questions, sir. JøMa (talk) 09:09, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, JøMa. You have new messages at Vacation9's talk page.
Message added 16:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Vacation9 16:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

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