User talk:Imalbornoz/Archive 2

October 2009

Sorry about that. The screen froze, resulting in an unintended warning and revert to the work you were doing. Again, my apologies. Jusdafax 22:08, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi

Hola Imalbornoz, I see that you go on trying to unbias Gibraltar-related articles. It seems to me that you're being quite brave :-) I just wanted to congratulate you because of your effort. Sorry for my English, you know my Spanish is far better ;-) --Ecemaml (talk) 23:22, 4 October 2009 (UTC) PS: nowadays I'm not at home, and anyway I do not have much time to contribute to the English wikipedia, however, consider asking for help or references whenever you may need it

Yes, it's one of the worst things when editing such articles. Y sí, ya me encuentro mucho mejor, pero dejaré de estar de baja en pocos días, así que mi disponibilidad es limitada. However, as promised, don't hesitate to contact me if you need specific pieces of information. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 08:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Imalbornoz. Tomorrow I'll be at home. I'll try to transcript what the books I have say about the Anglo-Dutch takeover of Gibraltar. It can be a good basis to approach a mediation. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 17:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

BTW, I started this work many time ago. You can see the references. The source cannot be seen as biased (at least not pro-Spanish, since the author was a former Governor of Gibraltar). I don't think further references are needed since it fulfills the requirements of Wikipedia:Reliable sources). The rest is pure speculation (good for a forum or a blog, but not for wikipedia). Best regards —Ecemaml (talk) 22:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC) PS: if you could review the article I'd be very happy; your English is far better than mine.

Some references

As promised, here they are:

• Jackson, William (1990). The Rock of the Gibraltarians. A History of Gibraltar (2nd ed.). Grendon, Northamptonshire, UK: Gibraltar Books. pp. 100–101. ISBN 0-948466-14-6.:

Although Article V promised freedom or religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar, few decided to run the risk of remaining in the town. Fortresses changed hands quite frequently in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. The English hold on Gibraltar might be only temporary. When the fortunes of war changed, the Spanish citizens would be able to re-occupy their property and rebuild their lives. English atrocities at Cádiz and elsewhere and the behaviour of the English sailors in the first days after the surrender suggested that if they stayed they might not live to see that day. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline, but the inhabitants worst fears were confirmed: women were insulted and outraged; Roman Catholic churches and institutions were taken over as stores and for other military purposes (except for the Cathedral of Saint Mary the Crowned that was protected successfully by its staunch vicar, Juan Romero, his curate, and his bell-ringer); and the whole town suffered at the hands of the ship's crew and marines who came ashore. Many body reprisals were taken by inhabitants before they left, bodies of murdered Englishmen and Dutchmen being thrown down wells and cesspits. By the time discipline was fully restored, few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain.

General Sir William Jackson was Governor of Gibraltar between 1978 and 1982. He was a military Historian and former Chairman of the Friends of Gibraltar Heritage.

• George Hills (1974). Rock of Contention. A History of Gibraltar. London: Robert Hale. pp. 173–174. ISBN 0-7091-4352-4.:

Byng's [English Rear-Admiral George Byng] chaplain Pocock [Rev. Thomas Pocock] went ashore on 6 August and walked 'all over the town'. 'Great disorders', he found, had been 'committed by the boats' crews that came on shore and marines; but the General Officers took great care to prevent them, by continually patrolling with their sergeants, and sending them on board their ships and punishing the marines; one of which was hanged after he had thrown dice with a Dutchman who had 10, and the Englishman 9.'[note 58: Where several soldiers of sailors were sentenced to death at the same time, it was not uncommon for a proportion only to be hanged, the condemned throwing dice to decide who would die] Such was the behaviour not only of the men but their officers that the worst fears of the population were confirmed. There were 'disorders involving persons of the weaker sex with gave rise to secret bloody acts of vengeance'. In consequence, 'the vanquished deprived many of life and threw the corpses in wells and cesspools'.[note 59: Ignacio López de Ayala, 'Historia de Gibraltar', p. 289, quoting from Romero's lost MS. account of the capture] What shocked Spaniards most was the profanation by the Englishmen of places of worship and their mockery of religious objects. If such were the allies of the King of Spain alternative to Philip V, they would have none of him, unpopular though the Duke of Anjou was already becoming with his nation-wide appointment of Frenchmen over Spaniards. Accordingly, when the garrison and City Council marched out on 7 August under the terms of surrender, all but 70 of the inhabitants of the 1,200 houses in the city took what they could carry of what had not yet been plundered, and then filed through the gate towards the ruins of ancient Carteia.

Ayala's Historia de Gibraltar is available here

George Hills was a BBC World Service broadcaster, Hispanist Historian, and a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society. Some wikipedians tries to discretit him claiming he was a "close friend of Franco", but I haven't been able to find a source of that.

• Sepúlveda, Isidro (2004). Gibraltar. La razón y la fuerza (Gibraltar. The reason and the force). in Spanish. Madrid: Alianza Editorial. pp. 89–91. ISBN 84-206-4184-7. Chapter 2, "La lucha por Gibraltar" (The Struggle for Gibraltar) was available online (PDF). Isidro Sepúlveda Muñoz is a Contemporary History lecturer in the UNED ("Universidad Nacional de Educación a Distancia"), the biggest Spanish university.

Después del fuego devastador, asaltada al fin la ciudad, sin la mayor parte de sus defensas y con soldados ingleses en sus calles, la confusión se adueñó de la población y se hizo presente la sed de botín y venganza de los soldados. El hecho más grave (un "desafortunado incidente" para la historiografía inglesa) fue el ataque a la población refugiada en la ermita de la Virgen de Europa, donde habían encontrado cobijo mujeres y niños, portando las pertenencias más valiosas de sus hogares; al igual que sucedió en los pueblos aledaños a Cádiz dos años antes, la soldadesca se entregó a la profanación y saqueo del templo, al robo de todos los objetos de valor de los refugiados y, lo más grave, a la vejación y violación de algunas mujeres. El paroxismo de su actuación lo alcanzó el ataque contra la imagen mariana, apuñalada, arrancada la cabeza del Niño que portaba en sus manos y, finalmente, arrojada a los acantilados de la Punta de Europa.

[...] A pesar de tener garantizada su seguridad y el disfrute de sus derechos civiles, la mayor parte de la población militar y civil de Gibraltar optó por abandonar la ciudad. Fue una decisión que a largo plazo tuvo una gran trascendencia, pues la ausencia de una población autóctona facilitó extraordinariamente el asentamiento inglés. Su presencia hubiese sido, por el contrario, un elemento de primera importancia en el posterior asalto e incluso en manos de la diplomacia hubiera facilitado (como ocurriera en Menorca) las negociaciones para su recuperación. Pero si política, militar y diplomáticamente el autoexilio gibraltareño fue perjudicial para España, desde el punto de vista humanitario y en el contexto de la guerra estaba razonado: los temores a las atrocidades de las tropas inglesas en los alrededores de Cádiz habían sido ratificados por su comportamiento desde el mismo día del asalto, siendo los oficiales incapaces de dominar los desmanes de su tropa e incluso participando algunos de ellos en la rapiña generalizada; incluso el concedido respeto a la libertad religiosa estaba en entredicho al ser utilizados como cuarteles y depósitos militares todos los recintos católicos, excepto la Catedral de Santa María, donde su párroco Juan Romero de Figueroa se opuso resueltamente al saqueo.

If you want, we can comment on the sources. I have to leave now. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 11:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Mediation

Hi Imalbornoz, I've made a statement (maybe too verbose). To sum up, I may discuss about editions being or not a POV, but introducing personal deductions instead of information supported by sources is not acceptable. --Ecemaml (talk) 21:08, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Interesting

Hi Imalbornoz, I found this reference. I've just looked at the index, but it's possibly useful for Gibraltar-related issues. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 21:43, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Re: Gib

I've been following the discussion. I've been trying to gauge when to jump back in, I was going to start things off in a new section. Unfortunately what I thought would be easy is now more complicated because the History of Gibraltar article is now being questioned. I had assumed that the information there was generally agreed upon at this point, and all that we had to do was come to a consensus on a summary at the Gibraltar article. Now that the mediation looks to be "expanding" past a small area of text to encompass information at the history article, this mediation is going to be much more complicated. I don't intend to stop trying to help because of the expanded scope, though, I only intend to stop when either a consensus is settled or editors give up on the process completely (and I'll do what I can to try to avoid that). -- Atama頭 16:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Canvas

[1] Please restrict discussions on articles to the talk page and avoid canvassing to influence a particular opinion on user talk pages. Justin talk 10:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Answer

Hola Imalbornoz,

can you please quote the two paragraphs you're referring to? The diff is quite big :-)

On the other hand, I don't remember, but possibly the reason to include the paragraph which begun "For some time..." was to clarify that in spite of the gross mistake that takes Gibraltar as English since 1704, the reality is far from it. If you wish, I can provide you the titles of the chapters in my books (this evening) since I think that all of them clearly describe the period 1704-1713 as "Habsburg Gibraltar". It's a fact that, more or less since 1707, British begun to monopolize the rule of the town, paying attention only at their interests and not to that of the pretender's (hindered by the fact that there were Dutch regiments in there) and that since 1711, when Charles become Emperor, the relationships inside the coalition that supported him cooled very much. But de iure Gibraltar was not British until 1713, upon the signature of the treaties of Utrecht (here there is another interesting story about Louis XIV ceding Gibraltar and handing it in to the Spanish negotiators as a fait accompli, but that's another story). Another interesting thing is that it was me possibly the editor that introduced many time ago the phrase "the town and garrison of Gibraltar in the Kingdom of Spain", verbatim copied from Jackson's book. I'll do some research this evening to find out when the full denomination was mutilated.

Finally, it's really funny that you've been described as being a single-purpose account as if it were an evil thing. See a paragraph:

“ If you wish to continue working as a SPA, capitalize on the strengths of that role, particularly as regards sources. Be willing to buy or borrow books and articles on your chosen subject. Search thoroughly for information on-line. Make notes reminding you from where your information comes, carefully check its reliability and neutrality. Reproduce it in the form of citations.

The community's main concern is that edits by SPAs stand at odds with Wikipedia's neutrality and advocacy policies. Indeed, in some cases, there may be clear conflicts of interest. Care in these areas will be seen as a sign of good editorship.

”

Compare your behaviour with other more obvious and persistent SPAs, which haven't provided a printed reliable source ever. Funny also the puppetry accusation.

Seguimos hablando. Un abrazo --Ecemaml (talk) 10:36, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Vale, I see your point. I think you've raised an interesting issue.

First of all, as promised, information about the denomination of the period 1704-1713. Hills devoted four chapters to this period: Gibraltar under 'Charles II of Spain' 1704 (Siege 12), Gibraltar under 'Charles II of Spain' 1705 (Siege 12 cont.), From 'Spanish' to 'British' Gibraltar and Britain acquires Gibraltar 1711-1713. Jackson is quite explicit: Hapsburg Gibraltar: The Eleventh and Twelfth Sieges, 1693 to 1713. My last purchase (Gibraltar. A History, by Maurice Harvey... possibly I'll invoice you part of the price ;-)) is also explicit: Gibraltar for the Habsburgs: 1704-1713. So, from a Wikipedia point of view, there is no reason not to label this period as Habsburg Gibraltar (even if between 1516 and 1700 Gibraltar was also Habsburg).

And now, the paragraph you mention. Well, once I read the paragraphs I remember what I aimed at writing the paragraphs: I just wanted to clarify several myths that may ruin an encyclopaedic article, as they're popular however doubtful or even false. The first one is the one related to the start of the English rule. As it's currently phrased, the paragraph is awful and possibly dispensable. It's obvious that a proper use of sections and a clear description of how the town was taken over on behalf of the pretender would be enough (BTW, there's a huge missing fact in such a period: the Archduke Charles was in Gibraltar on August 2, 1705, to be acclaimed King Charles III of Spain; as Harvey describes the Archduke Charles arrived in the town to be acclaimed King Charles III of Spain, the first slice of Spanish territory he could truly call his own).

On the other hand, I strongly believe that this is the point to describe the widespread story of the English flag, since it has been used to denounce the pérfida Albión and therefore must be explicitly refuted, since it's just propaganda (Spanish, in this situation; I do not like propaganda, regardless of its source).

Finally, an interesting point to emphasize is that, de facto until 1704, but de iure until 1713, Gibraltar was not only the town, but also its Campo Llano de Gibraltar, the municipal term that covers what nowadays is Tarifa, Algeciras, Los Barrios, San Roque y La Línea (see, for instance this). That the inhabitants of the town leave it and settled down in another part of Gibraltar is, until 1713, relevant to the history of Gibraltar, considering that the town was de iure Spanish until 1713. Beyond that date, it's pointless. About the Gibraltarians that took part in the following sieges of the town, the most obvious example is Simón Susarte (curiously, it's not listed in the section of notable people from Gibraltar; other notable Gibraltarians not listed are Fray Juan de Asensio, General Father of the mercedarios and president of the Council of Castile, Cardinal Diego de Astorga y Céspedes, archbishop of Toledo, or Gonzalo Piña Lidueña, founder of Gibraltar, Venezuela) but Ayala also mentions them (see here, p.296).

Well, sorry for the long explanation. I have a lot of work to do and won't be able to participate until tomorrow.

Venga, un abrazo --Ecemaml (talk) 22:40, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree, although I think this talk must go on in the article talk page. Just a final comment: I prefer the most verbose option and I'd leave (regardless of having a more detailed article) the references. Un abrazo --Ecemaml (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

A quick request: can you please have a quick look at Diego de Astorga? Your English is far better than mine and possibly you can make some copyedit? Thank you (no obligation, obviously :-)). Hasta luego --Ecemaml (talk) 15:46, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Sources and quotations

Hola Imalbornoz, I'm beginning to organize some of my material. As a first step, I'm including some interesting quotations from my sources in User:Ecemaml/Selected quotations about Gibraltar. Enjoy them and, if you need further information about a specific issue, I'll provide the info in there. Un abrazo --Ecemaml (talk) 23:54, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

It's funny. Your personal situation seems rather similar to mine (just the detail about the number of kids, I've got just one right now), especially with regard to your partner's comments :-) I think that things are evolving in the proper wikipedian way. However, I disagree with regard to your assessment on "rationality". Have you read the section on the notable Gibraltar-born guys? It's far from being rational :-) See you and gracias de nuevo. Un abrazo --Ecemaml (talk) 15:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC) PS: BTW, I've included a new quotation in User:Ecemaml/Selected quotations about Gibraltar#San Roque

RFC

I've started an RFC on Gibraltar related articles here [2]. This isn't an invitation to post on my talk page. Justin talk 21:05, 19 December 2009 (UTC)