Errant108
Chung Do Kwan edit
I don't think he will accept that DO in Chung Do Kwan does not mean WAY. His teachers have given him those Dan certificates and told him other wise. Good luck! I don't think I can post on Wikipedia anymore, I believe he may have complained and I was banned! Bigzilla
Well that shows how stubborn you think I am. I did not complain about you, however with your attitude and method of correcting me, I certainly can't complain about your possible absence.
At any rate, good luck at finding something else to do that interests you, Bigzilla. Quietmartialartist 22:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Like this: "You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink" I bet the horse was happy when the guy that lead him to water finally decided to leave :) April 2007 Bigzilla.
Serious, you should be more appriciative that folks are making every effort to provide you with soild information, from soild sources, not just some guy teaching Chung Do Kwan and giving out Kinko's generated certificates, which in itself is odd, since Chung Do Kwan says that Chung Do Kwan no longer exist as a style. I have even offered to somehow send you scans of all this stuff. April 2007 Bigzilla.
I am appreciative. Forgive me if I don't just give up thinking what my trust worthy teacher told me because some Joe-Blow told me it was false. The same can be said for you.
Solid is a stretched term when it comes to history. People have varied memories even a week after the fact.
"...not just some guy...", 6th Degree Black Belt under 8th Degree Black Belt, Duk Kyung Choi, who happens to have been trained directly by your "All important Uhm Woon Kyu".
"...giving out Kinko's generated certificates...", Have you even seen the certificate personally?
"Chung Do Kwan says that Chung Do Kwan no longer exists as a style." How is that even possible? Especially when you yourself said that Uhm Woon Kyu is the head of Chung Do Kwan today.
"I have even offered to somehow send you scans of all this stuff." And I have accepted those offers at least twice! Why offer information if you've not going to prove that it exists?
Any and all respect I had for is now gone. Quietmartialartist 18:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Too bad you feel Errant and myself are just Joe-Blows. I feel you have provided very good information.
There is no after fact, we have shown you the facts.
I am surprised that at such a high Dans, neither men above understand the correct Hanja for Chung Do Kwan.
Yes, I have seen the certificates that came up under the links you posted here.
It is UM, Woon Kyu's personal statement that Chung Do Kwan is no longer a martial art style, rather today it is a social friendship club. I am surprised that the 6th Dan and 8th Dan teachers never told you this. You should ask UM, Woon Kyu directly.
This is the first request I have read, maybe I missed the others, where and when were they made? Simply tell me where to send it all too.
Your sentence structure, like my spelling needs work :)
I know you have lost all respect, at least your still courteous, which is a more important display than respect for a martial artist. I am actually impressed with you for that.
Oh, I never intended to give you hell, I just told you the truth and it sounded like hell. Kindest Regards. Bigzilla
Please don't edit your comments into my original statements.
- Like it or not, you are Joe-Blows as far as I'm concerned. You have provided me with information that may or may not be true. To expect me to drop what I've known for years all of a sudden is absurd.
- I was referring to historic events. Not literally “facts”.
Quote Bigzilla: “I am surprised that at such a high Dans, neither men above understand the correct Hanja for Chung Do Kwan.”
- So am I, if it is indeed true.
- By “personally” I mean have you seen them in person and not in a blurry picture taken in a dark room?
Quote Bigzilla: “It is UM, Woon Kyu's personal statement that Chung Do Kwan is no longer a martial art style, rather today it is a social friendship club. I am surprised that the 6th Dan and 8th Dan teachers never told you this. You should ask UM, Woon Kyu directly.”
- Did if occur to you that perhaps Duk Kyung Choi doesn’t like Uhm Woon Kyu, and therefore doesn‘t answer directly to him? If I'm remembering correctly, Won Kuk Lee asked Master Choi to leave Korea and has been in the U.S. ever since(I have seen pictures of them together in Grand Master Lee's Vienna apartment). After Won Kuk Lee died (this is a bit of speculation on my part) Master Choi was cut off from the rest of Chung Do Kwan in Korea.
Quote Bigzilla: “This is the first request I have read, maybe I missed the others, where and when were they made? Simply tell me where to send it all too.”
Quote Bigzilla: “What proof do you have that Won Kuk Lee is a Korean National Treasure? That honor went to SONG, Duk Ki, the progenator of Modern Taekkyon, not Won Kuk Lee. I have a copy of the document if you want to see it.”
Quote quietmartialartist: “As for that document, it doesn’t concern the topic at hand, but sure.”
Quote Bigzilla: “Would you like his contact information so you can ask directly at the source instead of making things up on your own?”
- I would have accepted your offer if you didn’t accuse me of lying in the same breath. Not to mention there’s likely no way to prove that it was really Uhm Woon Kyu. As fas as where to send it to, is there no way for you to display it on my talk page? I'd rather not display my email for the world to see.
Quote Bigzilla: "I know you have lost all respect, at least you're still courteous, which is a more important display than respect for a martial artist. I am actually impressed with you for that."
- I wish you would practice what you preach.
- Do not confuse truth with your opinions. Quietmartialartist 01:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I wish you the best in following the "Blue Way" :) Bigzlla
"To know that you do not know is best. To pretend to know when you do not know is a disease" -- Lao Tzu
Wise words. From their context and who quoted them I wouldn't be surprised if you were implying that I "pretend" to know. I could quote that right back at you. I'll present a quote that could refer to me instead:
"Intellectuals question what everyone thinks they know." - Leon Bonstein. Quietmartialartist 19:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
" I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Still waiting for your data :) Bigzilla June 8, 2007
As am I. Aside from the Kwan unity document (which could have been a forgery, I don't know. What's with the clearly seen name Harry? Second from the top. Surely there isn't a Korean master named "Harry"?) you haven't shown me anything that conclusively proves what you're saying. I, however, did point out that Shoto in Shotokan doesn't mean Pine Waves, and thus that your logic for that translation and perhaps Woon Kyu Um's, is incorrect. Quietmartialartist 15:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
The Shotokan people, and Funakoshi all disagree with you. I know you don't know about the Kwan unity document I showed you, you don't know about many of the basic things to do with Taekwondo. This is the problem, you don't have even the most basic knowledge, that is why you are so hung up on hearsay and can not accept facts when you see them. You should spend more time learning rather than attempting teaching things you don't know. I have extended the same advise to your instructors. Best Regards. Bigzilla. June 8, 2007
Quote Bigzilla: "The Shotokan people, and Funakoshi all disagree with you."
Proof please.
Quote Bigzilla: "I know you don't know about the Kwan unity document I showed you."
Very rough translation:
Dear Masters!
This is a national, historical request, now that Taekwondo, our national martial art, is standing up for our nation worldwide. I urge all the Masters abroad to show our love of our country and show off (in Korea and abroad) Korea's supremacy and lead the way in making Taekwondo a global sport.
Last of all I wish with a faithful heart that you'd be insert something about the future being good , everyone who's devoting themselves to the spread and development of Taekwondo.
List: Members of insert name of Korean Taekwondo Organization here (Ganada (sort of like alphabetic) order) --Kjoonlee
Quote Bigzilla: "This is the problem, you don't have even the most basic knowledge, that is why you are so hung up on hearsay and can not accept facts when you see them."
Opinion. Not facts. This is your problem.
Quote Bigzilla: "You should spend more time learning rather than attempting teaching things you don't know."
What you still don't seem to understand is that I'm spreading the word of an 8th Degree black belt, Master Choi. He's been learning since he was 9. I doubt you have. Quietmartialartist 16:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't care if he has been learning since he was 2, he is very junior to Um Woon Kyu and Hae Man Park. They disagree with him, as I disagree with you. So in the end we see that Mr. Choi is very confused, or changing the name to meet his agenda. You are simply pushing that agenda, either knowing or unknowingly. You won't see it right now, or even in a few year as Mr. Choi the 8th Dan seems to have a strong cult of personality going on. But someday, you will see. Kindest Regards. Bigzilla June 9, 2007
Quote Bigzilla: “A little searching on the net finds that quitemartialartist own organization can not agree on the translation of Chung Do Kwan. QM, check out Master Choi's student in the UK. He says it means Blue Waves.”
Quote Chung Do Kwan Alliance: "The Great Blue Wave and many other translations relating to man's first source of power-'the force of water.'"
Looking up “Blue Waves” (Errant’s and your translation) I only find two responses: Those being the Wikipedia pages that you mentioned “Blue Waves”.
How funny that you inaccurately connect a UK guy to Master Choi because he mentions him, when the internet is filled with slightly different interpretations of “Blue Wave.”
Quote Bigzilla: “I have old Chung Do Kwan photos with the Hanja for Blue Waves written on it.”
Where are they? I asked you to show them to me almost month ago. You have yet to prove your claim. Photo evidence with Hanja written on them really is the best evidence. My excuse for not quickly providing photo evidence is that Master Choi lives far away and it’ll be awhile before I can see him. What’s yours? Answer this or you will lose all credibility as far as I'm concerned.
Quote Bigzilla: "Mr. Choi is very confused..."
If you're the martial artist you claim to be you should know that referring to an 8th Dan as Mr. is an insult. Also, who's to say that Woon Kyu Um and Hae Man Park are not confused? Quietmartialartist 03:18, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
1. Put more effort into searching for Blue Waves. 2. I have shown you enough items. Now it's your turn, I am still waiting. 3. Referring to Duk Kyung as Mr. Choi might be insulting coming from you, not me.
Stop stalling with all this foolish banter and come up with some credible evidence. Bigzilla June 10, 2007
1. It's all over the internet, that has been established. That still doesn't prove that it's true. 2. No you haven't, your best piece of evidence was a sheet of paper that could have been forged and without any kind of official stamp on it, you've no way to disprove that. You've lied about evidence, you've lied about translations, and it is becoming increasingly apparent that I was foolish to take you seriously in the first place.
Stop trying to rile me up. Quietmartialartist 14:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Still more banter from you? No evidence? Nothing? Not even one thing? At least you could have come up with something, anything? How lame! June 10, 2007 Bigzilla.
Why do you insist on goading me? Can you not see that no good will come from it? Quietmartialartist 22:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
My asking you for evidence to back up your base-less claims feels like goading because it can be disturbing when others do not just swallow your misinformation and ask for proof. Worse yet is when others show you proof that your misinformation is exactly that. You become angry and make statements that no good will come of it. The truth sucks when you believe a lie. Get over it. Bigzilla. June 11, 2007
It feels like goading when you ask 3 times a day for evidence that I've told you numerous times I won't have until June 25th. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14. Print this off and cross those numbers out each day. When you've crossed out 14 that's when I expect to have evidence.
Unlike some, I have yet to get angry. Perhaps that is why you are so perturbed. You think I or my teachers are intentionally lying. Try this WP:AGF and try to have a civil WP:Civil conversation with me for once. Quietmartialartist 00:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, I just wanted to comment on something again.
Quote Bigzilla: "You become angry..."
Okay, let's hypothetically say that I'm angry you won't "swallow" my misinformation. Your solution is a grand scheme where you endeavor to have me see your standpoint by repeatedly attempting to insult my intelligence... *Exaggerated "Hmmm..."* Please enlighten me concerning the intricacies of your plot.
Quote Bigzilla: "The truth sucks when you believe a lie."
It's the name of a school... Believe me, whatever the correct translation is, it's not mind blowing information. We're not discussing the philosophies of Allah or something of that magnitude. Quietmartialartist 15:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)