User talk:Dove1950/Archive 2

German currency

Hi,

I heard you are about to reorganize many Germany currency in the 19th century. That is great news to hear. I updated the succession box of German gold mark so that you will get a chance to review it. Once thing I am not sure about is the separation of German gold mark and German papiermark. Paper mark had been available since shortly after the unification (187?). And silver coins were still available some time after WWI. So I'm wondering were they simply 1 currency that devalued sharply after WWI?

Another thing I'm not sure about is whether or not Austria-Hungary used Vereinsthaler. The article of Vereinsthaler says "Austria-Hungary stopped issuing Vereinsthaler coins in 1867, following the Austro-Prussian War", and the article of Austro-Hungarian gulden says "The Gulden was the currency of Austria-Hungary between 1754 and 1892". And I know for sure that 1 Vereinsthaler = 1.5 A-H gulden.

--Chochopk 16:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Me and my big mouth. What I intend is to create separate articles for the different state's currencies, in addition to articles like Reichsthaler. I've already started with Prussian thaler. You're absolutely right to flag up German gold mark and German papiermark. These were two "phases" of the same currency, as I've tried to make clear. As the the Vereinsthaler, Austria-Hungary issued Vereinsthaler coins until 1867 but denominated their banknotes in Gulden. The Gulden was also the unit of account. My guess is that the Vereinsthaler was issued for trade as much as for internal use but I have no contemporary evidence yet.

Italian East African lira

Would you please add references or external links for your sources? You seem to have access to really good information, but it doesn't match what Chochopk and I were able to find on GFD and the Tables of Modern Monetary History (both linked at the article). Thanks. Ingrid 22:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

What in particular is it that is in disagreement? I'll do my best to provide references for it.
Dove1950 23:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Now I'm completely confused! I had originally put 1936 in the box, and Chochopk changed it. I asked why, he gave a link to Table of Modern Monetary History: Africa for Italian Somaliland. I was convinced. Now it seems lik 36 is right.... Although I'm a liitle unclear from the text. Chochopk said the first IEA lira notes were 1938 (I don't have SCWPM). The Italian East African lira page now mentions overstamping. Is that what happened in 1936, with local notes produced in 1938? Ingrid 00:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Italian East Africa came into being in 1936. That was my basis for using 1936 as the start date of the Italian East African lira. However, the notes overstamped with the name of Italian East Africa only appeared in 1938. As long as we make that clear, I guess either date could go in the succession box with some justification.
Dove1950 00:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Now I'm feeling less foggy-headed. That's what we were trying to show in the original succession box. 36-38, IEA used Italian lira, 38-41 it used IEA lira. Before 36, Italian Somaliland used IS lira, Ethiopia used birr, Eritrea used tallero. Italian Somaliland lira doesn't have a succession box yet. Ethiopian birr shows this. Eritrean tallero doesn't exist yet. Italian lira doesn't have a new succession box yet (not sure if it has an old one, but I know it doesn't address colonies if it does). But GFD does imply that the previous currencies continued to circulate and the Italian lira was used long before IEA was formed. But I'm not sure if those dates can be trusted. Ingrid 01:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I just have 2 things

1. I noticed that you remove Italian lira from the line of succession, which is not compatible with what Ingrid and I had. Could you include some reference to prove that ITL was not used?
2. If the political status change and a monetary status change do not happen at the same time (which is most of the cases), then we use the "4-column" format to indicate that. Example can be found at Ethiopian birr.

--Chochopk 02:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Italian coins and notes were used, alongside the locally issued coins from Italian Somaliland and then the Italian East Africa banknotes. Make of that what you will as far as the succesion box goes. I'll do Eritrean tallero now.
Dove1950 19:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Well then, I guess I missed the coins. Are you saying that Italian Somaliland lira coins still circulated even after Italian East African lira banknotes came out? Btw, we have a convention to use the date of introduction of the physical form of the currency. --Chochopk 14:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Nice! More stub is exactly what we need now. I'll update a succession box for Eritrean tallero. One thing, when you create a stub, could you also make sure that it has category "Currency of someContinent", "Economy of someCountry" (of just "SomeCountry" if there is no subcat "econ"), and {{someCountryStub}}. It's much easy to include them at creation than to do a full scan of all currency articles later. Thanks! --Chochopk 02:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Chinese

I see that you have added Chinese yuan, and Kowloonese added some Chinese text to it. I happen to be a native Chinese speaker. So if you need some clarification on some of the text, you are more than welcome to ask me. Perhaps some Japanese (as nouns and terminologies tend to be written in Chinese character). But not Korean, as it is completely a phonetic script. --Chochopk 03:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Republika Srpska dinar

You wrote that "Very soon after, the novi dinar was introduced which was pegged to the Deutsche Mark rather than replacing the earlier currency at a fixed rate. This circulated until 1998, when the Bosnia and Herzegovina convertible mark replaced it."

2 questions:

1. Was there a novi dinar that was pegged to Deutsche Mark for Republika Srpska? I thought there was only a novi dinar for Yugoslavia.
2. Dayton Agreement (1995) was the basis for integrating Republika Srpska back with Bosnia and Herzegovina? So did Republika Srpska dinar not come to an end in 1995?

--Chochopk 07:06, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Danish Indian rupee

If you have more information about the Danish Indian rupee, consider putting it on History of the rupee. deeptrivia (talk) 14:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Standardized_procedure_of_creating/updating_an_article

I have made a suggestion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Numismatics#Standardized_procedure_of_creating/updating_an_article, which you might be interested to know. --Chochopk 10:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Introduction of the euro in 1999

Hello Dove1950. We have recently had a minor "revert war " in the Luxembourg franc and Italian lirawikis. I understand your view that the former national currencies of Luxembourg and Italy were in practice still legal tender in 1999. However both european threaties and national laws considered that :

a) the euro was "the currency" of EMU member states. b) former national currencies had become national "subunits" of the euro in January the 1st, 1999.

I feel it would better to explain that national currencies ceased to exist (de jure) in 1999, but were used (de facto) until 2002.

Also please have a look at http://www.europarl.eu.int/workingpapers/econ/114/chapii_en.htm :

In other words, the euro unit and the national sub-units (called national monetary units) are units of the same currency, the euro.

Thewikipedian 15:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The national currencies did not "cease to exist (de jure) in 1999" as they remained legal tender and circulated until 2002. That's the point that needs to be made clear before the idea spreads that something happened "on the ground" in 1999. Wikipedia can only hope to be a worthwhile exercise if it is correct. What happened in 1999 was that the lira, francs, etc, became part of a currency system whose peg was at that time the purely notional euro. Until late in 2001, the euro was not even on price tags, let alone acting as a currency. Perhaps I should point out the OED definition of currency: "The money in general use in a country". I'd like to think that a form of words can be found for these articles that is accurate and in no way misleading.
Dove1950 17:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Dollar

Hi Dove1950, I've noticed that you have moved in after me on the various dollar currencies, correcting "is... since..." to "has been...since...", which is fine, however I do think the article should begin with "The Liberian dollar, "The Singaporean dollar etc., not just "The dollar. There are several reasons for this:

1. As as a matter of style and consistency, the heading of a Wikipedia article should always be repeated in bold in the beginning of the article, as being the word you're looking up, and all these dollar articles have a heading which includes the country's name.
2. There are so many currencies called "dollar", but when people see the world dollar on its own, they tend to think you're referring to the US dollar, as that is the worlds largest currency. Similarly, other currency names used by several countries (like the dinar, the peso, the lira, the rupee and the pound) need a country prefix in order to keep them apart, and it seems that Wikipedia is generally doing so, so why shouldn't this apply to the dollar?
3. All the various dollars/dinars/pesos/liras/rupees/pounds in the world are referred to as Country/Country's dollar/dinar/peso/rupee/pound by all internatonal reference works (see the CIA World Factbook [1], Encyclopedia Britannica [2], MSN Encarta [3], BBC [4], Reuters [5], the Worldpress org.[6], WorldReference [7] and many. many more.). The same is true for the international banking community (see IMF [8]), the UN (see [9] and governments (see [10]), so Wikipedia should follow that convention.

The fact that the currency locally is referred to as simply dollar or rupee, and that it doesn't say "100 Liberian dollars" or "1,0000 Indian rupees" on the banknotes, is irrelevant.

The only exception to this rule should be currency names that are unique to a country, such as the pengő, the lev, the riyal and the pula.

Don't you agree? Best regards Thomas Blomberg 18:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

No I don't agree, which is why I've been changing it. The fact that the currency is locally referred to simply as the dollar or rupee (such as on coins and banknotes) is totaly relevant and cannot be ignored.
If you want to go through all the currency articles and change the style, first have the decency to ask if others working on Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics agree.
Dove1950 18:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'll do that. I didn't do it, simply because there wasn't any existing consistency in the currency articles, so it doesn't seem that the people participating in the group has agreed on anything in this matter. However, if we are to follow your logic, then things like the New Taiwan dollar and the Lebanese pound shouldn't be referred to as dollars or pounds at all, but yan and lira. Best regards. Thomas Blomberg 19:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

You're on my wavelength now. I've tried to get Lebanese pound changed to Lebanese livre (the name given in the Latin script on coins and banknotes) and I'd love to change New Taiwan dollar to Taiwanese yuan. Hopefully these few exceptions will get brought into line so that Wikipedia is accurate and not simply following faulty ISO or CIA lists.
Dove1950 20:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, you've certainly got my support for that. —Nightstallion (?) 08:56, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Peruvian Sol

I see you have reverted the name change that I made on the page for the currency of Peru. What you did was incorrect as there were two types of soles: the Sol de Oro (a.k.a. Viejo Sol) and the Nuevo Sol. If you just had to get the word Peruvian in there it should have been Peruvian Nuevo Sol. I'm just telling you this so that you know the purpose of my namechange and don't revert it back to Peruvian Sol again. You also removed the new pictures I had put on the page.

Thanks, Vivaperucarajo 00:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

By removing the word Peruvian, your new "sol de oro" page was invisible. I've moved it to Peruvian sol ("de oro" was only added later) and linked it and Peruvian nuevo sol to Peruvian inti and currency.
Dove1950 19:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the "Nuevo Sol" link above so that it avoids the redirect. I hope no one minds. --Cromwellt|talk 21:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC) (login issues)

Infobox Currency

This message is repeated on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics. Sorry for spamming, but I felt this could be interesting to you.

I have finished drafting Template:Infobox Currency, and you can look at its discussion page for instruction, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Sandbox for sample outputs. It is much better than Template:Currency box. Any comment is appreciated.

--Chochopk 09:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Lebanese livre

I know you've been over this. So I'm not gonna discuss whether it should be called livre or pound. =) But it'd be nice if you can fix the double redirect when you move a page. Thanks. --Chochopk 22:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I messed something up. What double redirect?
Dove1950 12:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply. Nothing big, Lebanese Pound used to redirect to Lebanese pound, which in turn redirects to Lebanese livre. So when someone put Lebanese Pound in the search box, it will only redirect once and gets stuck at Lebanese pound. I fixed that when I wrote the first message. --Chochopk 11:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Dove1950 19:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I just realized, the central bank says "pound" on their website. --Chochopk 02:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

They've decided to translate livre into pound for their English language website. There's no need for us to follow them.
Dove1950 14:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I concur. —Nightstallion (?) 12:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

If we're all agreed, can we please change the style guide? That way, pedants won't have a leg to stand on.
Dove1950 19:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree in principle. But isn't livre French? Isn't Arabic more dominant in Lebanon? And the currency is called "lira" in Arabic? --Chochopk 23:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It is French, of course. On Lebanese coins and notes, French and Arabic are given equal weight, one side Arabic, the other French. As we're restricted to the Latin alphabet for titles, it makes sense to me to use the French name in the title. We probably should make sure in this (and others) that there's a link from Lebanese lira, lira being the transliteration.
Dove1950 20:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Numismatics

Just something to keep ya busy!  :)

Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Collaborate : Finish Assessment, Expand and reorganize style guide, New category structure, Infoboxes: designing and adding to pages, more... Expand : Coins of Australia, Half sovereign, 5 yen coin, Canadian Silver Maple Leaf, Coins of Ireland, Series of 1928 (United States Currency), Royal Mint, Achaemenid currency, Elymais, Roman provincial coins, Seleucid coinage, Nabataean coinage, South Vietnamese đồng, more... Featured article candidates : Peace Dollar, more... Merge : more... Stubs : Brockage, Cistophorus, Coinage Act of 1849, Zuz (Jewish coin), Polish Mint, more... Wikify : Twenty pence (English coin), Canadian Silver Maple Leaf, Chinese Silver Panda, Common coin errors, Gold standard, Coin grading, Euro, History of the English penny (1154-1485), Petrocurrency, more... Others : Requested Images: English coin Three Farthings, Commemorative coins of Poland, more... Improve to GA: History of money, Numismatics, Roman currency, Money, Ancient Greek coinage, Fiat currency, United States Mint, Canadian Silver Maple Leaf, Banknotes of Zimbabwe, more...

 Joe  I 21:49, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Slovak koruna

Thank you for supporting me on Slovak koruna. --Chochopk 23:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Cambodian Currency

Do you think it will be more effective to make an article entitled Cambodian Currency, and list the progression from the tical, franc, piastre, etc.? I don't think there is a need in creating many small stubs of the Cambodian currency system as a whole. Thanks. --Porqin 18:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that such an article would be useful in addition to the articles for individual currencies. In the future, hopefully, these stubs will get expanded.
Dove1950 20:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

German unit

It appears that naming convention of currency unit is very important to you. So I'm writing this to inform you that I am going to start capitalizing them within a day. I will also notify Nightstallion and update the style guide as well. --Chochopk 09:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in German only. And perhaps other languages that also capitalize currency unit (Turkish? I'm not sure). Please show your opinion at Talk:German mark. --Chochopk 15:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

A question, would you also revert all references to a german language currency, such as "project XYZ cost 10 million Mark"? --Chochopk 23:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I would probably write Mark (or RM, DM) but I have no intention of going through all the articles in Wikipedia to do so. We seemed to have agreed on local style for the currency articles, hence I think we should stick to it, even if we don't capitalize the units in the titles (something I was in favour of but which can make finding the articles a little awkward due to the way Wikipedia treats capitals). I didn't wish to annoy, but we didn't seem to have voted on the more general question so I saw no reason to change.
Dove1950 12:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I am taking the responsibility of changing all (well, almost) references to Mark, Gulden, Schilling, etc. --Chochopk 08:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Good luck! On the same subject, do you know of any other languages which capitalize nouns? I only know of German but English used to so I guess there may be others.
Dove1950 13:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Antarctican dollar AfD

Sorry to spam if you are already aware. But I had to resort to personal message. Someone is trying to delete Antarctican dollar, I tried really hard to make a point at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Antarctican dollar. Now I need people to support the "keep" side. Thanks. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 05:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Gibraltarian real

I've added some extra information you might find of use in the Talk: Gibraltarian real page from my personal knowledge. I would be very interested if you had any more information regarding the Gibraltarian real. Kind regards --Chris Buttigieg 21:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Bosnia and Herzegovina convertible mark

Hi,

I have a question about your edit, specifically, on the succession box. I'm not sure if Croatian kuna and Republika Srpska dinar were used in B&H. Assuming that is true, were they used in all of B&H, or just on the bordering regions? And for every Preceded-by relationship, there is a corresponding Succeeded-by relationship. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 14:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The Republika Srpska dinar was only used in the Serbian controlled areas of B&H. The Croat areas used the Croatian dinar, then the kuna. The succession box will need expanding for the kuna to take B&H into account, whilst the convertible mark should have the Yugoslav dinar in the succession box. Anything else I've missed?
Dove1950 14:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Per Talk:Republika Srpska dinar, it seems that Republika Srpska used their own 93 dinar, then Yugo 94 dinar, then Yugo new dinar, then B&H mark, and never B&H dinar. I made the changes accordingly to the succession boxes of Yugoslav dinar, Bosnia and Herzegovina dinar , and Bosnia and Herzegovina convertible mark. Please review. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 06:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

another instance of local name issue

Sorry I can't defend Irish pound/punt because it's definitely bilingual, a bit like Swiss franc and Finnish mark. But Talk:Ukrainian hryvnia may interest you... --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 03:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm conceding for the time being on the punt but I must have another look at markkaa. Thanks for looking in.
Dove1950 13:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Lebanese livre

Hi there, I noticed that you had commented on the discussion page of the Lebanese livre about someone moving the article to Lebanese pound. I've never moved the article, but I'm curious where the decision to move the article to Lebanese livre comes from. A google search for "Lebanese pound" returns 1.5 million results, a search for "Lebanese lira" returns about 18,000 results, while a search for "Lebanese livre" returns only 1,000 results. Isn't livre the french word for the arabic lira, which in english would be translated to pound? This being the english wikipedia, wouldn't pound be the correct term? I can understand using the english translation of lira (pound), or the english spelling of the arabic word lira, but I don't understand using the french translation of lira. Also it seems major references (for instance, the CIA World Factbook) list the currency as pound. Thanks. George Saliba 12:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

To summarize, Lebanese coins and banknotes are bilingual in Arabic and French. The currency is called the lira in Arabic and the livre in French. As this is an article in a version of Wikipedia which uses the Latin alphabet, it makes the most sense to call the article Lebanese livre. Unfortunately, ISO and others have mistakenly given the currency name as the pound, a term which has never been used on the currency. For comparison, Google gives over 46,000 hits for "livre libanaise". Hopefully, having the correct names in Wikipedia will lead to a change in the number of hits in English.
Dove1950 13:07, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess I can see the preference to use one of the terms printed on the banknotes themself, but why the preference of the French word printed on the note instead of the Arabic word printed on the note, in a country where the official language is Arabic? According to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Numismatics/Style we should "Use the local name for the denomination even if there's an English translation (e.g., Czech koruna, not Czech crown)." - doesn't this mean we should use the term "lira"? I guess the major disconnect is that the Lebanese government is still printing monetary units using French translations even though French is no longer their official language. To be honest I don't really care personally one way or the other, I just started researching this issue as I've never heard anyone refer to the lira as a livre before (though I also don't live in France). George Saliba 05:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

After digging deeper, it looks like Lebanese lira would be the correct term following the Numismatics style guidelines, even though the Lebanese central bank always refers to the currency as LBP or Lebanese Pound in its English publications. George Saliba 12:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that we can say that livre isn't a local name. However, I would agree that Arabic is by far the more common language, French being a hang-over from the colonial period. We'd also have to change Syrian pound and Egyptian pound as the same argument would apply.
Dove1950 14:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the Syrian pound or Egyptian pound, but I would bet that they should indeed be using local terms (according to the style guidelines at least) instead of English translations - likely lira also. I'm going to move the article to Lebanese lira and start redirecting and updating articles accordingly. Please take a look at the Syrian pound and Egyptian pound and see if they do indeed need the same treatment. Thanks for your help in clarifying this. George Saliba 23:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Award

This should have been given a long time ago, sorry. Good work! Joe I 11:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I award Dove1950 this barnstar for all the new Numismatic articles created. :) Joe I 11:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Oops, sorry bout having someone elses name on there, I just copy and paste things :) Joe I 16:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

German mark

Hi,

you wrote

The old Reichsmark and Rentenmark were exchanged for the new currency at a rate of 1 Deutsche Mark = 1 Reichsmark for the first 600 RM and 1 Deutsche Mark = 10 Reichsmark for the remainder. In addition, each person received an allowance of 40 Deutsche Mark.

I found the free 40 Mark at [11]. But I can't find the source about "1:1 for the first 600 RM". --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 08:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The following website [12] gives the conversion rate I added. I hope that this site and your reference are accurate as there is a lot of confusion over precisely what happened. One point on your reference. It gets the conversion rate to the dollar wrong in as much as the rate of 4.2 only operated between 1949 and 1961.
Dove1950 20:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarification required on end dates of Transcaucasian currencies

• Transcaucasian ruble

Between 1919 and 1922, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia issued their own currencies, the Armenian ruble, Azerbaijani manat and Georgian maneti.

• Armenian ruble

The ruble (Armenian: ռուբլի, Russian: рубль) was the independent currency of the Democratic Republic of Armenia and the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic between 1919 and 1922.

• Azerbaijani ruble

Ruble was the Russian name of the manat, the currency of Azerbaijan between 1919 and 1922.

• Azerbaijani manat

The Democratic Republic of Azerbaijan and the Azerbaijani Soviet Socialist Republic issued their own currency between between 1919 and 1923.

• Georgian maneti

The maneti (მანეთი) was the currency of the Democratic Republic of Georgia and the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic between 1919 and 1923.

For the case of Armenia, there is no contradiction. But there are for the other two. I don't have the proper reference to get the correct info. But you seem to be on top of this. Could you help clarify this? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 00:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on this at the moment but I really need to get hold of a copy of Volume 1 of Pick. Without that, I'm reliant on a partial list at [13]. I think the 1923s should probably become 1922s.

Then I must point out that if the last note were printed in 1922 for example, there's no reason that it can't be used in 1923, 1924 etc. There are resources at the top of Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Sandbox/Succession. From my own experience, Global Financial Data is less reliable and Table of Modern Monetary History is better, although still it makes mistakes occasionally. I don't have volume 1 either. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 17:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

That is, of course, a good point. The real question is when the first Transcaucasian notes were issued to replace the individual currencies.
Dove1950 17:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I've found what appears to be a complete list of Pick numbers (together with some photos) for the "Russian regions" as Pick calls them at [14]. From this, I've made appropriate corrections.

Dove1950 22:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)