Comint

Genesis EW

--Comint 13:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)hello and welcome
memo: Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Electronic_Order_of_Battle

Genesis EW and related articles

Hello Comint, I've recenty nominated several of your articles for deletion. The article Genesis EW you created doesn't appear to be notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. I nominated several related articles you created for the same reason. If you'd like to contest this and argue your point of view please see this article's AfD page. DraxusD 03:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

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Redirect of GenCOM Specview

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Redirect of GenCOM SpecView

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Redirect of GenCOM SimGen

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Redirect of GenCOM SimPro

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To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting GenCOM SimPro, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to leave a message on the bot operator's talk page if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. --Android Mouse Bot 2 23:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:EOB results.GIF)

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Logo

I notice you have uploaded the image Image:Gencom cycle.JPG with the {{non-free logo}} fair use image tag. However, this tag seems unrelated to the content of the image, and as a result it may qualify for speedy deletion. Image:Gencom cycle.JPG has been tagged for deletion, and may have been deleted by the time you see this message.

If you can find a valid tag that expresses why Image:Gencom cycle.JPG can be used under the fair use guidelines, please replace the {{non-free logo}} tag that you have placed on it with that tag. If no such tag exists, please add the {{non-free fair use in|article name that the image is used in}} tag, along with a brief explanation of why this constitutes fair use of the image. If the image has been deleted, you can re-upload it, but please ensure you place the correct tag on it. However, you must not remove the speedy deletion notice. Thank you, and please feel free to continue contributing to Wikipedia. The Evil Spartan 19:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Recreated material

A tag has been placed on GenCOM Suite, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as articles for deletion. If you can indicate how GenCOM Suite is different from the previously posted material, or if you can indicate why this article should not be deleted, I advise you to place the template {{hangon}} underneath the other template on the article, and also put a note on Talk:GenCOM Suite saying why this article should stay. An admin should check for such edits before deleting the article. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 4 under General criteria. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. We welcome your help in trying to improve Wikipedia, and we request you to follow these instructions. The Evil Spartan 19:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

As a note, if you believe the deletion was unjustified, you can try deletion review. The Evil Spartan 19:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

If you wish to win any support:

• Do not simply repost the same stuff - use deletion review like the evil man says
• do not post the same stuff on multiple titles - see this moan.

-- RHaworth 09:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use Image:Gencom cycle.JPG

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Gencom cycle.JPG)

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re:Deletion of COMINT metadata and Electronig order of Battle

before taking any further actions, please refere to the talk pages of these articles, or to this comment or perhaps, please contact me on my user page.
regards. Comint 07:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Comint, and thanks for the response. I believe you may be looking for WP:DELREV- a way to ask for a deletion to be reviewed. You might also try asking the administrator again for his deletion rationale. However, if you use deletion review, you will probably need to talk about the concerns brought up at the deletion discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Genesis EW. For now, I see that the concerns are that the page does not reference any other sources to prove its notability: in this case, you might be interested in WP:RS and WP:CORP, especially for Genesis EW. You will certainly wish to prove the notability of the subject with third party references. I hope this helps. The Evil Spartan 19:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:EOB results.GIF)

Thanks for uploading Image:EOB results.GIF. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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deletion of COMINT metadata and Electronic Order of Battle (copied from here)

hello. following your decision at these articles' del-rev i'd like to know what should be done in order to make these articles legit, in you opinion. since i do believe that they are notable and should exist, i'd like your guidance. please respond to my talk page. many thanks, Comint 07:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Develop draft articles on each topic in your user space using only material from reliable sources that are independent of either topic. Once that is done, return to WP:DRV and request that the articles be restored using your draft articles as the content for those articles. -- Jreferee T/C 07:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:GenCOM EOB snapshot.GIF

Image Copyright problem

Thank you for uploading Image:GenCOM EOB snapshot.GIF. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. NOTE: once you correct this, please remove the tag from the image's page. STBotI 11:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

EOB addition to SIGINT

Thanks for the addition of the EOB material to SIGINT. I fixed an obvious typo in a link. As mentioned previously on your talk page, there is concern that there is too much reference to Genesis products, and that the additional material reads too much like an advertisement.

While I agree that the generic idea of EOB is quite appropriate, I do have some specific concerns. I have tried to stay away from the term ESM, since I find that tends to have a tactical EW orientation, and developing an EOB easily can involve national-level assets. If we can come up with a more meaningful definition of ESM, that would be excellent. In US practice, however, I find it's a way to avoid saying SIGINT in a tactical context.

Also, title = Defense Scientific and Technical Information Center is a large data base; I believe that an appropriate reference would need to be a specific document in DSTIC.

In like manner, http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=61238 appears to point to a document that is not available without purchase. While it is useful to point to extended abstracts of such documents, I'm inclined to say the AIAA abstract needs more detail, or perhaps you could find a paper that is fully available?

Are the graphics all in the public domain and preferably in the Commons?

I'm certainly aware of things that are classified, but if there are no public sources on them, I don't think we can use unsourced references such as "Hence, most real life examples are confidential, though it is known that before operation Desert Storm for example, Iraqi forces were mapped and monitored, before and during the operation, also by monitoring and locating the units' radio equipment." Thanks! Howard C. Berkowitz 15:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

---

I assume i took care of the concern that some of the material reads too much like an advertisement or at least i hope so: Since we all agree that examples are necessary, i don't find the reference to one product or another irrelevant. Furthermore - since it is an open source, i'm sure that more examples could be find and added and i more than welcome it. Take for notice that there is a great picture of Rohde&Schwartz spectrum analyzer, although you can find the same product by other manufacturers. But- if you find a particular paragraph irrelevant, i will more than appreciate it if you make me notice and change it as needed.

As to the graphics - well they are all in the Commons indeed.

As to your last paragraph: There are very few examples, such as the Desert Storm example that i've mentioned and added a referance. Even though, i find it necessary, for the liability, to mention that no much example could be found, and the reason for that. Do you think otherwise / have another idea?

As to ESM vs. SIGINT - as much as i know, ESM is the more specific and accurate definition to electronic support, hence passive interception of electromagnetic waves, which commonly used by tactical SIGINT. While SIGINT refers to any kind of SIGNALS interception, which includes EM waves (ESM), acoustic waves, light waves and any signal platform for the use of communications or detection, ESM is limited only to the concept of electromagnetic waves interception. Would you accept these exceptions?

Thank you for your remarks Comint 09:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Admittedly from my own experience, I have found ES to be more of a euphemism when one does not want to say SIGINT or ELINT. Quoting, however, from the US definition, "electronic warfare support — Division of electronic warfare involving actions tasked by, or under direct control of, an operational commander to search for, intercept, identify, and locate or localize sources of intentional and unintentional radiated electromagnetic energy for the purpose of immediate threat recognition, targeting, planning and conduct of future operations. Also called ES. See also electronic attack; electronic protection; electronic warfare. (JP 3-13.1)

If there is a single key point here, it is that ES is direct support and responsive to a commander, as opposed to the ELINT subset of SIGINT, which is the province of national intelligence. EOB, however, is not an immediate tactical need, as indicated by the extensive set of national data bases on it, maintained by the Joint Spectrum Center and Defense Intelligence Agency in the US. I would welcome definitions from other countries.

Let me propose a hierarchy, hoping this formats correctly; Intelligence collection disciplines, including SIGINT and MASINT.

Under SIGINT is COMINT, ELINT, and, although it is more problematic, FISINT. There are also general methods such as direction finding and traffic analysis.

EW includes both tactical SIGINT, but also ECM and ECCM. ES is now under the [[electronic warfare[[ article. EW and SIGINT are related but different

"While SIGINT refers to any kind of SIGNALS interception, which includes EM waves (ESM), acoustic waves, light waves and any signal platform for the use of communications or detection, ESM is limited only to the concept of electromagnetic waves interception." I would disagree emphatically. For acoustic waves, it is the non-SIGINT discipline of Geophysical MASINT#Acoustic intelligence. For light waves, it is Electro-optical MASINT. For unintentional electromagnetic waves, it is Radiofrequency MASINT.

If ES is considered tactical EW, I'm not sure I see EOB, a more analytic discipline, as part of it. Were the main topic EW, it is generally accepted that ECM, ECCM, and ES falls under it. EW includes both tactical COMINT (e.g., shut down a tactical voice channel) or ELINT (e.g., jam a radar).

As far as examples, I believe they do exist. It was not terribly difficult to find and cite a detailed article from the Joint Spectrum Center. There are the Australian examples from Desert Storm. Look under "Poobah's Party" for taking down the Iraqi strategic air defenses. ISTR examples from the Balkans in a tactical context, including the counterexample of the EH-60 Quickfix standard equipment not being useful, because it is oriented toward line-of-sight VHF. For it to be useful, a field modification needed to be made to put a commercial wideband receiver on board.

I really didn't follow your explanations of manual versus automatic EOB buildup.

With graphics, the key thing is that they show unique detail. I pulled the spectrum analyzer from an existing article. On thinking about it, it would be more useful to have a line drawing of an abstract drawing showing a frequency domain display, which I can make when I have time. I'd like to contrast that with a time domain display, although that's more of a challenge to my drawing skills. Howard C. Berkowitz 16:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

With response to yours at User_talk:Comint#EOB_addition_to_SIGINT:

First - thank you for an intelligent and enlightening conversation.

And to the point - i have some disagreements with you on the definitions but since its all semantics, i'm not sure one of us will convince the otherone. One thing i'm sure about is that SIGINT is basically a pasive intelligence gathering concept, hence frequency blocking for examples or any other ECM technics would not follow under COMINT nor ELINT.

Part of the problem, here, is that EW and SIGINT do not fit into a common structure, although they are related. In general, I would agree that active measures are EW and not SIGINT, with the exception of provocative methods where something that is basically for collection approaches a border, or turns on active emitters, to try to get the other side to turn on its emitters.

My recommendation would be to write up EW as a separate subject, including EA, ECCM, and, only as a brief mention, ES as a cross-reference to the type of SIGINT involved. EA and ECCM are active while SIGINT is generally passive, so forcing ES under EW winds up being confusing. May I suggest "ES is the subset of SIGINT that directly supports active EW", with further discussion of ES to be under SIGINT/COMINT/ELINT, perhaps separating tactical and strategic?

As to EOB - true - it is not so simple analysis, though it is quite tactical. Although it can be performed on a national level for long term analysis', it is also a technique that is commonly used near batlefield, by brigade intelligence level, with on-line information flow and immediate decisions making by on-field analysts with direct contact to the combatie forces. So, in a way, i can't see if it's more SIGINT or more ESM, unless there is no much differences between them as long as dealing with EM waves interception. Well, to be honest, i'm not that sure where to draw the line.

I would draw the line between tactical and strategic is that tactical implies immediate action. That action is most likely EA/ECM, but could involve turning on an ECCM capability, or even going to EMCON. In MASINT, there is a distinct phase of collecting a set of measurements, so you can recognize a signature of something significant. There is, I believe, a parallel here. EOB is in that preparatory phase of data collection. Once you have the EOB, if you were commanding a tank brigade and you became aware that the other side was issuing launch orders to a large-scale antitank weapon such as JSOW, you'd probably attack their communications. If you were commanding a radar and realized that they were targeting you with anti-radiation weapons, you'd change your signature, change to a different platform, or go into EMCON. I see an important distinction in time scale here -- EOB must exist before you can have a meaningful tactical response to a signal.

about manually or automatic EOB build-up - i'm not sure i get your question. Was my explanation unclear, or the whole idea? just to make sure i'll give you the answers you're looking for.

The fundamental concept of manual vs. automatic seems an artificial distinction. Automatic may include additional equipment or algorithms, and, if those are significant, they should be described. If they are no more than a speeded-up manual process, or if the algorithms cannot be described, I see little point in making the distinction at all. Howard C. Berkowitz 09:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

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