User talk:Cliché Online/Archive 1

A lot of passionating old stuff

Views of the French military AFD

Hello, I believe you nominated this article incorrectly. I went to WP:AFD and did not find this article nominated. You have to nominate it there in order to start a proper vote. There are directions at the bottom for how to do it. Ask me for more information.UberCryxic 20:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll do it if you want me to, though I'm not sure if it will get deleted.UberCryxic 20:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your message, i have currently no time for this matter but i'll figure it out later. Anyway the route to deletion is a long one, and the worst is, one article deleted today will be recreated two weeks later, as everyone can edit here! Maybe you'd like to get an interesting and very educative point of view of how the things really works here. i'm sure you'll love it. well talk to you later. ;) Cliché Online 20:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well if you're pessimistic about this deletion process, why did you nominate the article for deletion in the first place? Not only that, but as I said, you did not nominate at the correct place.UberCryxic 22:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

with all due respect, pessimism is never far from realism, i nominated it because i trully think this article is a crap written by ignorant kids watching to much TV series (the Simpsons). didn't i said i didn't have time for moving the AFD nor follow the vote process right now? do you really need me for moving the vote to the correct place? i'll take care of this matter later, like i said what can't be done today will be done tomorrow or two weeks later. Cliché Online 22:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not questioning your motives or the legitimacy of your move, but rather to do whatever you want in a correct manner. If you do not have the time at the moment, then you should remove the link at the top of the page since it is not really directed at the AFD. If you don't, I will.UberCryxic 21:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

you can remove it, no problem, i'll add it later. by the way, thanks for removing the "massive POV" it's really appreciated, sure it needed to be neutralized like i admitted myself, (it was late and i was tired when i done this so it had to be reworked) not deleted though. it was not an "original research" it was pure facts. Ask some French about it and they will tell you I told the truth. It doesn't matter anyway since I'll rewrite this section in two weeks. i've decided to fight for Francophilie instead of fighting versus Francophobia. Cliché Online 22:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't deny that there are French people who are dissatisfied with their current socioeconomic status, but to call this "anti-French sentiment" is a bit silly. There have been individuals in societies throughout history who have had gripes about their social systems, but that doesn't mean that they are systematically opposed to the people, traditions, or culture of the region or nation-state in which they grew up (or lived). I live in the United States and have several issues about certain societal mechanisms in this country, but that doesn't make me anti-American. My label of "original research" is more than justified since it appears you are introducing a new standard whereby people who don't like particular facets of a certain nation are against that nation.UberCryxic 00:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

you didn't noticed the socio-economic paragraph was just a prologue (they were facts based on socio-political documentaries and political shows i've watched). Many young French don't realize (and are not interested with) the importance of Mitterand's socialist reign over the actual French economy and society. Very few of them knows the biggest French political party was the communist party until Mitterand's election in 1981. Today, the majoritary parties are the Socialist party and the UMP (right wing), before Mitterand the socilaist party was called the "Non-Communist party" wich says how much the communist was prominent. Communist activists are really important today and are connected with with most the popular, workers and students strikes. The prologue was meant as a background for those who are not familiar with the French society's actual and current situation. The important stuff was the "hymn hiss" (i don't know if "hiss" is the good word for "whistling when you are unsatisfied") episode was a fact, an important one since it's really called "anti-French act" in France and laws were voted after this wave of hymn hissing. These laws were about "anti-french behavior" literally, so my section was legitimated. If you get intimate and talk with young French, you'll learn how much they are anti-French, trully. Americans thinks that the French were massively against the Irak invasion but this is untrue. Many were supporters and Chirac and his government didn't ask the French, they acted in the name of them. About the "FranSSe" rap paragraph this is really important too, and of course this was true. It's called "anti-French" in France! The paragraph about Napoleon's victory commemoration was connected to the "positive side of Colonialism" amendment. Well it's complicated, but all i said was true, it was not really neutral and a bit raw but i was tired so i didn't made it subtile enough. Also there was a debate with Chirac and young French on a political TV show, wich was the first time i think, and thr French demonstrated their pessimism and told the president why they were anguished. The president told them he didn't understanded them. The fall of Global rank from 5th then to 6th was one of their argument. Believe me, what i said was true. I only reported facts. Ask French and you'll see i didn't lie. Also there were anti-white acts during student strikes with African-French and Maghreb-French youngsters who attacked White boys and girls. It was reported by some media, but the subject is very touchy in France and people daring naming it "anti-White" racism are said to be fascist or some. Officially anti-white racism doesn't exist in France. Truely. Racism only exists for non-White people. The repentment and guiltyness sentiment is strong because of WWII when some people denounced the Jews to the Nazis and before because of the Black people slavery. These minorities' opinions have a srong impact here as they are strengthened by the communists (the latter are the strongest anti-colonialism supporters). A wave of books about guiltyness sentiment and anti-French theme were published during the mentioned period. Also it was true that many French from the bourgeoisie are leaving the country since the early 2000s, you can hear it everyday on political radio and TV shows, just ask some French about it. well the situation is complicated, and Francophobia is made by simplist views and clichés. I'll try to post some links for your education (when i get time), i doubt that i will find English texts though. French society events only interests American TVs (among others) when there are flames and riots and spectacular events to show. not the everyday life. If you are really interested in French politics and French society, here is my favourite channel wich is hopefully also available online, live and for free: {{mms://vipmms.itele.fr/cpi_itele}} i-Télé, copy and paste in your fav Media Player (mms protocol links are not allowed on Wiki). I watch it everyday and this was a part of my source. Another channel (source for my section) is [1] LCP/Public Sénat. well i'm still making userboxes and have just finish the francophone one, now i have to connect the category articles and stuff, i'll probably finish tomorrow. Cliché Online 01:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a lot to respond to, and unfortunately I can't cover it all. In another sense, I don't want to get drawn into this argument. I just want to say that even the things you have explained do not constitute the label "anti-French." They merely highlight the thinking trends among some French people about their society. Those thoughts can be negative, but they do not translate to an anti-French agenda.UberCryxic 18:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

you didn't read it, if you did you'd know it was called "anti-Français" by the French, politics, lawyers and media. Cliché Online 18:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Similar reactions here in the states get called "anti-American," but mostly for propaganda reasons. The same is true in France. There is no notable anti-French sentiment among French people themselves. Wherever it does exist it is extremely remote and pertains significantly only to a small percentage of the population.UberCryxic 19:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Consequently, you should not be passing off that incredibly small percentage of the population as a sign that there is significant anti-French sentiment in France, or at least significant enough to merit a whole separate section in the article Francophobia.UberCryxic 19:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

of course, just like the francophobia sentiment is a small percentage among Americans, British, Australian and Italian, but doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Francophobia is a minor sentiment as well, but there are a full-page article and several related articles. Therefore an "anti-French sentiment in France" section-only was legitimate. Cliché Online 19:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It is not legitimate because it's not notable. Anti-French sentiment in the United States is also mostly non-notable, but there was a big brouhaha over Iraq which sparked all up again. That's why all those types of articles exist: Iraq. Completely different than the situation we have here with France, where a small percentage of the population dislikes their current socioeconomic status (not the nation of France itself, so please correct yourself next time you bring out such rubbish) and has been doing so as a relatively irrelevant undercurrent of French society for quite some time.UberCryxic 19:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

the problem is specific here in France, since ANTI-FRENCH laws were created after the wave of mediatized anti-French events (inc. the hymn whistle). I think that you don't have such ANTI-AMERICAN laws in the US right? Since specific laws were created here, it means these events are REAL (and new) and taken seriously here! It's not just a hundreds of mothers in front of the White House screaming "US go home!" or "Bring back our boys!". This is real stuff. What i said about the French opinion was not "rubbish" since spin doctors polls are quoted every weeks in France in political radio and TV shows (on press too). These polls demonstrates a pessimistic opinion among the youth, this is what i was refering to. Also what i said about minorities asking for new demands was true, it wasn't my own (opinion) socio analysis but the one of professionals as seen on LCP documentaries and political debates. I'll try to find some URLs but i'm quite busy right now. Cliché Online 20:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The French government created anti-French laws? That's about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. What did those laws say? No bistros after five in the afternoon? Honestly dude this is ridiculous. Wikipedia is not a place for propaganda and personal views. Don't equate pessimism among the youth in France with Francophobia. They're completely unrelated as there is pessimism among youth in many other places around the world. It's not uncommon; you're trying to make the situation in France somehow stand out, but in reality it's not special at all.UberCryxic 20:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

"The French government created anti-French laws? That's about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard" probably, but this is the real thing dude! i'll post you some evidences since you don't believe me. ask another French on Wiki and you'll see if i'm lier or not, and if you really know what's happening there. "No bistros after five in the afternoon?" this is not a bad idea (wasn't it introduced in Ireland?). "Wikipedia is not a place for propaganda and personal views" i agree with this but this only a theory. did you checked the 1st link i've posted the one about Wikitruth? You should know how things works here by now. What is the Francophobia article if not an agenda pushing article? What is the View of the French military if a PoV riden article? Did you checked all French symbol articles? I did! A non-neutral template is posted on most of them. Did you checked Concorde, SS Normandie, Francophonie, Suez Canal, DeGaulle's speech about "Vive le Québec libre!" (long live to the free Quebec)? I did! All of these are obvious non-neutral francophobe articles. This is sad but true! I only point it. You're maybe right about pessimism, though, but from the outside i see no reason for the US to be pessimists and i think they're not as much as the young FR are, the reason is massive unemployment, compare the US and the FR rate and you'll see the difference. Cultures tends to unify but actually the are still some deep differences e.g. Did you noticed there was no "Proud to be German" userbox while they are tons of "Proud to be English" or "Proud to be British"?, "proud to be Portuguese" or Italian etc. There many German on the EN.Wiki (so the reason can't be: because there is not enough German here to create a userbox) so Why? Because of WWII! A German can't be proud or he will be accused to be a nationalist (just ask a German about this). This is a known social fact learned it on post-WWII documentaries. There was no "Proud to be French" neither (before i made one)? Why? Because of WWII. French are not proud anymore. There are many hints here and there showing how much articles are oriented. Did you noticed that when talking about British and French in a paragraph, the British are ALWAYS named first? Except when it is related to a negative aspect, Why? Probably because most of the editors here are British. So is it really neutral? Surely not! But this is what really happens here. PoV are everywhere, it's just about noticing them. Wikipedia is absolutely non-neutral! and not a real encyclopedia as it's not made by professionnals like the real enyclopedia was but by common people or by students, this is a melting pot. At last, there is a real difference here in France, even if you can't accept it or don't believe it, there are these "ANTI-ANTIFRENCH ACTS" that you won't find elsewhere (AFAIK not in the US nor the UK).

A German scientist -can't remember his name- once told: "when I describe an experience I don't describe the experience itself, but instead the "effect" produced by this experience on myself." What does it mean? Simply that WE are non-objective, we only use PoV. No one is neutral, this is impossible for a human to be neutral because, he is a "subject", he is Subjective not Objective (i wonder if i render this correctly from French to English or if you get my point but anyway this is it.). Talk to you later dude. (please ask another French about these laws and you'll see if i'm a lier or not.) Cliché Online 21:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I think much of our problems here are stemming from the fact that you may not realize how strong a term "anti" is or the connotations it has in English. You personally may think the French government created "anti-French" laws, but that certainly was not the aim of the government (what government would do something that stupid?). It comes down to you confusing the difference between being frustrated at a situation and hating the entity that facilitates (but not necessarily creates) the situation. Militarism and patriotism declined in all nations after World War II. That includes Britain, France, and Germany, but the latter especially. If you are saying that there is a difference between the way Europeans and Americans display their patriotism, then I would generally agree with you. Americans are normally much more open about it, but that's mostly because they didn't experience what Europeans did. Either way, this detracts from the main point: the youth in France can be generally dissatisfied with their situation, but this does not mean they hate France. Stating such a thing is absolutely ludicrous.UberCryxic 21:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh also please note that hating the French government is not the same thing as hating France. France as a country entails far more than just the current government; there is culture, history, language, and a ton of other things that constitute a nation or a peoples. Saying the French youth hate France is like saying that they hate themselves. It's just plain silly....can't believe you haven't recognized this yet.UberCryxic 21:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

On a similar note, I noticed that you said you created a Francophone "Wikipedians" Project (Wikiproject?), but I couldn't find the link. Is there a page for this project?UberCryxic 21:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

thanks for your interest, i'm still working on it. i just try to not waste too much time... Cliché Online 22:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Well....sorry if I seem to be picking on you, but you say you have "started" the project in your userpage, but here you use the phrase "working on it." I just don't want anyone to get misled and think there actually is such a project (like I did).UberCryxic 01:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

oh, what i mean by "project" is probably not a so-called "wiki project", but more an idea, to link Francophone users by specific userboxes. i've created new ones and edited others to make it happen. its no big deal but thanks to that users will be added to a common Francophone category, quite simple idea, it seems that nobody had before me. Cliché Online 02:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Template:User Francophone i'm still working on it but all French related, e.g. Cajun, Acadian, Québécois, Belgian, French, Briton, etc userboxes will add the user to a new category "Francophone", so people can meet each others. and i plan to create a Francophone related userbox category, just like the British wich is already available. Cliché Online 02:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

New userboxes

What are you here for? I've noticed that you've made hundreds of edits to various userspace stuff like userboxes and user categories, but very little edits to the encyclopedia. Remember, Wikipedia is first and foremost an encyclopedia, and it is explicitly not a social networking site. If you are looking for social networking functionality I would suggest that you look elsewhere. --Cyde Weys 15:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Um. Cyde does a lot of good work, and he deals with a lot of jerks, so he gets a bit stressed sometimes. Let me try to phrase it in a somewhat nicer way, okay?

it's nice to you to try to defend him, but i personally think assholes don't need any excuses for acting like the way they are. Cliché Online 16:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, the userbox thing has been a serious problem. Serious serious serious. They're way too open to abuse, and therefore we've had to take a hardline stance against them. Besides, like Cyde said, having so many userboxes, well... it gives the wrong impression. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not Livejournal.

A lot of userboxes have had to be deleted; consequently, I would like to ask that you please not create any more userboxes without first consulting an administrator and getting it approved.

Okay? DS 22:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked

Your contributions history shows that you have been aggressively cross-posting in order to influence a user category CFD. Although the Arbitration Committee has ruled that "[t]he occasional light use of cross-posting to talk pages is part of Wikipedia's common practice"¹, such cross-posting should adhere to specific guidelines found in Wikipedia:Spam. In the past, aggressively worded cross-posting has contributed towards an Arbitration Committee ruling of disruptive behavior that resulted in blocking². It is best not to game the system, and instead respect Wikipedia's principle of consensus-building, by ceasing to further crosspost, and instead allowing the process to reflect the opinions of editors that were already actively involved in the matter at hand. Thank you.

I've blocked you for 24 hours as a result. Please don't do this again. --Cyde Weys 17:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)