Bobbins11

August 2008

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Roman Catholic Church

Tell me, and show me what verse does it say in the Bible that Hierarchy is against the Bible's teaching that we are all equal? In fact you are wrong! We are equal in that we are all human beings created by God with equal opportunities.

But, there are good people and bad people in the world. That is the first step that humans have made themselves unequal. Then, from the group of good people, there are some people who are very good and some who are good. There are those who devote large amounts of their time to God such as Priests and Nuns and Monks, and those who are lay people. This is another division in inequality that is due to natural differences in our good. Finally, there are those who have commited all their time to God, such as Bishops and Cardinals and those who are less committed, such as lower ranks in the Church.

You are correctm we are al equal before God in the Bible. But, some of us are better than others, some of us sin less than others, some of us love God more than others and it is stupid and wrong to say that the man who loves God a little is as equal as the man who loves God a lot because they are not equal in terms of their righteousness.

READ Matthew 18:1-5. When the disciples ask Jesus, "who is the greates", Jesus Christ gives them an answer - he does not say they there is no greatest in heaven!! Surely the man who is more free from sin will sit closer to God.

READ Mark 9: 33-37. Jesus tells us "whoever wants to be first must be last of all and servant of all".

Well, the Pope, who is first in the Catholic Church is also the last because he serves me and my other Catholic brethren by praying to God and teaching to me the ways of God. Tourskin (talk) 17:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

You see, we are all equal, but it is our actions, whether we are good servants or bad sinners that makes some of us closer to God than others. Tourskin (talk) 17:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

READ Mark 10:35 - Jesus says that to sit on his left and right hand side in Heaven is not for him to decide, but the Father - therefore, some will be better than others to sit at the right and left handside of Jesus Christ!!!Tourskin (talk) 17:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

My fellow Christian, my heart soars in your response and in your openness. You have good points. Why must there be a hierarchy? Well, perhaps if we used analogies, we can best understand why Catholics believe that a hierarchy is necessary.

First, the problem of equality. It is true that we are all scum and by the grace of God are we made worthy to serve him in heaven. Catholics believe we are not worthy to serve Christ directly. Christ is not only a King, but the King of Kings. In Kingdom, a King has ministers and servants. He has close servants, and then those servants of high rank have responsibility over other servants. So then on earth, in order for us to be worthy of Christ, we must make ourselves servants, but some servants will undoubtedly be closer to God than others. Catholics choose Cardinals to be Popes based upon whom they see as closest to God. In this way, God's closest servant is chosen to lead the Church. Since he is closest, he may be guided by the Holy Spirit best. Just as Jesus Christ had 70 close disciples, and then of those, 12 of them were the closest. Finally, Peter (Peter comes from the Latin word "Petros", which means Rock or "Keppa" in Aramaic), Peter was the servant and head of the disciples. In the bible, Jesus often took Peter, James and John with him in special occasions, like in the garden of Gethsemane, or in Jesus' transfiguration. Thus, even Jesus Christ instituted a system of hierarchy, based upon on those whose minds were closest to God. That is why we believe in a hierarchy - God is a King in Heaven. He has ministers. On Earth, we humans all sin. But the one who sins less than the other is closer to God - I think that is where our beliefs might differ. In the parable of the master and the three servants, the servant who makes ten talents from one talent is given a talent in reward by his master. The other servant who made 5 talents from 1 was given greater responsibility. So Catholics interpret this as signs of hierarchy based upon how close one is to God.

Next, the problems with the Church. The history of the Church has many problems. There have been Popes who have waged war, Popes who have broken their vows of celibacy and had children with mistresses and Popes who went to war, bribed in Papal elections - it makes we sick. But does that mean we should condemn and throw out the entire structure of the Catholic Church? Let's see. The Church structure is a tool, used by workmen(Catholic Christians) to do God's work. If the work produced is bad, i.e. if God's work is not done, do we blame the tools (Church structure) or do we blame the workmen(Catholics in power)? We usually say that "a bad workman blames their tools". So it is true, in my opinion of the Church. I am a bad workman if I blame the tool of Christ (his Church) for not doing his work. So, whilst the Tools of Christ have not done Christ's work, it is because the workmen were bad. In more modern times the Pope and the Cardinals have reformed significantly; piety, discipline, prayer and vows to God are taken seriously.

Concepts the Church believe in. Well, there are some difficulties. I can do my very best to defend them with quotes from the Bible. In any case, my fellow Christian, remember this above all else. You told me that we are all the same. You are correct, we are all Christians. The reason why we argue is because we try to correct each others' ways so that we may best worship God. Thus, we are all united in our goal of giving eternal praise to God. "for he who is not against us is for us" Mark 9:40

Peace be with youTourskin (talk) 19:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Jesus Christ came and he interacted with the worst sinners and forgave their sins. Well, this is the response: 1) If Jesus did not interact with the lowest of the low, then people would not have understood that even the worst sinners can be forgiven. So Jesus did it to show his love for everyone. 2) It would seem that we need no other than Jesus Christ to be with God. To some extent, this is true. Many of the earliest Christians such as St Ignatius or some of the earliest Hermits who later banded to form Monasteries - they prayed to God by themselves with no others. So it would seem that there is a contradiction. In reality, however, we demote ourselves voluntarily to such a low position. We say, "Christ, we are unworthy to receive you directly, and we are unworthy to talk to the Father". Therefore, we humble ourselves and say we need others to help direct us to accept God. Make no mistake though on Catholic belief; there are some who are very pious and who have led sinless lives are very close to God. These people are Saints. Because they are close to God, but also because they are human, they act as an ideal bridge. Just as I might ask my sister, "sister, pray for me tomorrow for I have an exam", I might say to St Francis, who is in heaven, "St Francis, you are closer to God than I, and I humble myself before God by only addressing his servant, not God himself. Please, pray for this unworthy servant". Also, notice that in the Gospel the story of the Roman centurion who in the words of Jesus had more faith than all overs - he was going to send his servant because he considered himself unworthy. Then he went an extra step and asked Jesus not to enter his house for Jesus was too good to enter the Roman's house. Thus, my heart is not good enough for Jesus to enter, I ask my brethren in heaven to pray to Jesus. Thus, it is the same as those on Earth. Thus, by making myself humble before Christ, I may be elevated. Jesus said, those who humble themselves will be elevated and those who elevate themselves will be humbled. Jesus makes humility important - by interacting with sinners, by accepting the most humiliating crucifixion, he has given us a perfect example to humble ourselves. Tourskin (talk) 20:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I would like to invite you to stay at wikipedia. Tourskin (talk) 20:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I know you said you do not wish to argue further, but if you care for my soul, you will show me the truth. The Truth, because it is correct and undoes the wrongs of life, shall always prevail if it is sought out. Now then, first of all, you must recognize that although I may be "wrong" and have "false teachings", Catholics do not follow the teachings of demons. We can answer back at your church and say that you worship demons. However, you will find that we both worship Christ, King of Kings, whom we are not worthy to worship.

Catholicism leads to hell? There is only one thing that leads to hell: rejection of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ as the path to the Father. Since you and I acknowledge this, we are both following what is needed to stay away from hell. Jesus Christ said, "Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." Matthew 12:31. Here, Jesus Christ has told us that if we do not sin against the Holy Spirit - when it comes to take our soul, "in this age or the age to come" (Matt 12:32) - i.e. either when we die now, or when Christ comes, we will not be forgiven. However, since you and I do not reject the Holy Spirit, then we do not have a sin that condemns us.

Timothy says that we must not forbid marriage. When a man becomes a Priest, he becomes married to the Church - remember, St Paul said that Christ marries the Church. Thus, when men become Priests, they represent Christ by giving his teachings to us. Therefore, as Christ married the Church (as Christ did not marry a woman!!!!), so too do we men, out of our desire to replicate Christ's actions, we also do not take a woman for marriage when we become priests, but follow Christ's example and marry the Church. Look up St Paul's letters who says that the Church submits to Christ as a wife to a husband. So then, the Church is Christ's wife and we who wish to become like Christ, must act like Christ. Nuns and Monks are not forbidden marriage - they are not forced to accept a marriageless life - they have chosen voluntarily to dedicate their lives to Christ. By not marrying voluntarily, they can focus on Christ.

Abstaining from foods. If you are using Timothy to say that fasting is wrong, then why does Jesus fast? Remember, Jesus is a Jew!!! Jesus asked his disciples to fast in private - take a look at Matthew 6:16-18. Then Jesus fasted for 40 days in the desert. How can you explain this? If you want to be close to God, you must be like God in his actions - praying as often as Jesus prayed, and fasting as often as Jesus fasted. Timothy scorns those who abstain from foods, but I tell you that there is no Christian, Catholic or non-Catholic who abstains from any food permanently. We recognize that Jesus Christ gave us freedom to eat, but if you wish to show dedication to God, fast, so that you can remember that life is not about the physical world, but about giving up what you want for Christ, as he gave up his life for us. There is a difference between fasing and total abstinence forever.

What is it then that Timothy is attacking? Simple, Timothy is attacking Gnosticism, a false breed of Christianity unlike ours which renounces everything Physical. You see, Timothy is warning against the future, where Gnosticism will emerge. Then Islam comes and asks us not to eat Pigs. You see, this is real abstinence. You should read about the false Gnosticism, they deny everything that Timothy says. So does Islami by forbidding Pigs - Pigs are created by God, so pigs cannot be unclean for they are God's creation.

My brother, why are you afraid of arguing with me? Correct my ways, but if I convince you and show you errors in your thinking, it is because the truth wins out. The truth is the most logical and rational element. In the end, I only want you to accept that we are both worshipers of Christ, and that is all that matters, that we worship the King of Kings. You may stay in your Church, and I in mine, but love me as a brother in Christ, as surely as I love you. Tourskin (talk) 20:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

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