Big Fat Green Frog

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Hello, Big Fat Green Frog, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Your edits to Strumica - reverts warning

You are in danger of violating the Three-Reverts Rule, stating that you must never make more than three reverts of the same page during 24 hours. You could be blocked from editing otherwise. Please discuss the issue on the talk page rather than reverting. In this particular case, I should tell you that the inclusion of foreign placenames in the lead of geographical articles has often proved rather controversial, and edit wars about such matters are usually very unproductive. (I'm personally often in favour of inclusion, more than most other editors, but I don't know anything about this particular case.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Names of towns

Regards the name of Mac. cities, I will not accept Greek names in the lead, as there is no Greek minority in the country, that could justify the insertion; especially, I don't understand why I should accept modern Greek. For places that have had great historical importance, like Bitola or Ohrid I have no problem with the Greek name; but for the rest the awnser is no.--Aldux 15:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, it's a known fact that there has been a (historical?) Greek presence in the Vardar Macedonia even as north as Krushevo [1]. According to Demographics of the Republic of Macedonia there is a Greek community in the country, and frankly I don't see how the presence of a minority is so significant. There are Greeks in New York, yet we don't add the Greek name there! Finally, regarding the modern Greek names, most of them are identical to the Byzantine names, and I am adding them under the same pretext that the Turkish name is at Chios. According to your logic, the only Turkish name that belongs there is the Ottoman Turkish name in the Arabic alphabet.

Look, your a new editor and you don't fully understand the extent of the problem. If I remove unilaterally the Turkish name from Chios, the Turkish editors will react by removing Greek names from Anatolian places, even the most important for Greeks. For this we are trying to reach a consensus involving both Greek and Turkish on where and when to use alternative town names, and where to place them in the article. Till then, all are trying to behave so I sure won't start a new Greco-Turkish War. Regards the Greek names you placed, earlier or later I'll get them removed, like it or not.--Aldux 15:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Really, unilaterally? Well then be sure to remove the "Solun" from Thessaloniki, the "Kostur" from Kastoria, the "Voden" from Edessa, Greece etc, because these things work both ways. Regarding your earlier (although later erased) attack regarding my alleged bias, please conduct a quick review of yourself, especially your attitude towards Greeks. Either all exonyms stay, or none; like it or not.

Would you look at that [2]. It appears you have "warred" to maintain a Slavic name in an article on a Greek city although there is no evidence whatsoever that there is a community in that city using that name (even the Slavic-speaking community, who may well use the Greek name). The only possible relevance that the names as found in the official standardized languages of Bulgaria, FYROM and Serbia could have is the historical one - the same relevance that the Greek names have in cities of FYROM. Why double standards, Aldux, why?

Who knows, I may be a member of the Epsilon Team conspiring against Greece

. Jokes apart, the Kastoria, Florina and Pella prefectures were esteemed by the last Greek linguistic census to have a considerable Slavic minority, and the Greek Helsinki Monitor speaks of up to 200,000 Slavophones still today. As for them using the Greek name - sure.

Regarding my rash words that I later removed, here your right; I admit my fault, and ask your pardon.--Aldux 17:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

A) I did not deny the existence of the Slavic community, B) I asked for proof that they use the names as found in the official languages of Bulgaria, FYROM and Serbia (e.g. I can prove that the Turkish community in Xanthi call the city İskeçe [3]), and C) I asked for proof that they use the Cyrillic alphabet (if you know, the last time this language was to be introduced into the educational system, it used the Latin alphabet). I think you have quite a few sources to find - good luck

Just another quick comment: These kinds of name-inclusion debates are a perennial source of some of the most silly edit wars we have on WP, especially on Balkan topics. Just as a background, please see our (yet to be concluded) discussion at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Greek and Turkish named places). That was intended just for the Greek-Turkish cases, but the Greek-Macedonian ones are similar. At the present moment the only tangible result is: Please don't start up new edit wars, and try to be flexible about where and how to mention such names. Apparently, most editors were agreeable to a rather liberal stance about including foreign names, in principle, but many had objections to seeing such names right at the start of the lead sentence, except in cases with a particularly strong (historical/demographic) justification. If in doubt:

• Consider just leaving articles as they are;
• Don't try to enforce uniformity by revenge edit-wars (removing names on the "one side" just in order to get even with the "other side");
• Don't remove names;
• And if you must add them, consider if you can add them somewhere else than in the lead sentence. (End of lead paragraph is often much less objectionable: "The town is also known as A in language B, as C in language D..." etc.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Why not just include everything providing that it is in some way related to the subject?

Don't ask me. :-D Well, many readers and editors seemed to feel that the inclusion of a foreign name in the lead sentence could be associated with irredentist or revisionist political claims etc. Using names as symbols of national claim-staking. That sort of thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Big Fat Green Frog and welcome. Accidentally i saw this discussion and thought of saying my opinion as well, taking into account that "foreign placenames" have bothered me a lot...:(

I will find it rather stupid if now, that the revert wars concerning greek and turkish placenames have reduced in numbers and frequency, we find ourselves involved in similar rv-wars with 'our northern neighbours'... If skopjian placenames are in the lead of greek city articles, i see no reason not having the greek names in places about FYROM. the last linguistic (not ethnic) census that was quoted before, took place 60 years ago, and there is no evidence of people declaring themselves 'ethnic macedonians' or 'macedonian speakers' nowadays (apart from less than 6,000 people who voted for Rainbow Party in last elections). if we are about to say that a slavic placename should be included under the word "Macedonian" for greek cities just because some websites claim a large 'macedonian minority' in Greece, i am ready to give links for sites claiming large Greek minority in FYROM... If we include a slavic placename cause of historic reasons (same as happens in most of greek/turkish articles) and in Cyrilic script, this name shall be under "Bulgarian", cause: 1) noone ever talked about a "Macedonian language" back then, 2) many scholars consider this language to be a dialect of Bulgarian and 3) in almost all of the cases the name is exactly similar. If we include a slavic name without saying Macedonian or Bulgarian, this name will be in Latin script, since this is the alphabet in which the slavic dialects in northern Greece were last written. Now, concerning if mentioning a placename in an other than the official language can be considered irrendistic: greek placenames in turkish, italian, egyptian, et cetera articles can hardly been considered irrendistic (and vice versa). but placenames under the term "Macedonian" in greek articles can well be considered as such, having in mind that the Skopjian government claims a 1 million (huh?!!) minority in Greece, and not forgeting that most users from this country had/have maps in their userpages showing Greek Macedonia as theirs. All of these factors should be taken into account when talking about such placenames, and if i won't get clear replies for all, i will remove such names from Greek articles (without this meaning that i will add greek names in FYROM articles). Regards (to all invlolved in this discussion) --Hectorian 01:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)