User talk:Betterkeks/archive

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TKK! bark with me! 17:12, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Mapframes

You should look at using {{maplink|frame=yes}} to make mapframe maps. Templates with named parameters are a lot nicer for most editors than raw json (e.g. a small typo such as removing a comma can completely trash it), plus the template can retrieve stuff from Wikidata/OSM for the page it is on without having to enter a Q-number. - Evad37 [talk] 03:02, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Happy to do that if it works. I’ll update the example. Can’t seem to get geoline working. Other than that, are there any objections to replacing the png with a mapframe?@Evad37:Betterkeks (talk) 04:34, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Once the mapframe is actually working, then I wouldn't have any objections - Evad37 [talk] 08:44, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

@Evad37: Can you please look at Victoria Avenue, Perth and tell me why the mapframe inside the Australian road Infobox is wrong (with mapframe=no removed)? I can’t figure it out, the wikidata record seems right so I’m probably just not seeing the problem. Betterkeks (talk) 05:08, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Looks like there's an issue with replicating data from OSM, per phab:T237228 and its subtask. I also got a notification for a similar issue at Wikipedia:WikiProject_U.S._Roads/Maps_task_force/Requests#Texas_State_Highway_6 - Evad37 [talk] 05:25, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I found a more relevant bug at phab:T218097 and have reported this over there. - Evad37 [talk] 01:27, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

@Evad37: Thank you. I have two more possible examples for phab:T218097. First, on Peel-Harvey Estuarine System the mapframe should show both Harvey Estuary and Peel Inlet, but Peel Inket doesn’t show. Second, on Australian Islamic College all three campuses should show, but they don’t. Betterkeks (talk) 03:09, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

not sure whether you have had a proper WA welcome yet

Thanks for your work on Western Australian material - much appreciated !!

Depending on your interests - there are local events in West Oz and Perth you may wish to be alerted to - we can help on that. JarrahTree 03:58, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Thank you. I’ve been contributing to the OpenStreetMap project for about 6 years now, mostly around Perth, so it’s great to be able to start sharing that work with Wikipedia. I hope I am not treading on any toes :) ... please tell me if I am. If there are local events, I might attend at least starting off so I can find my feet, if that is OK. Where do I find out about those? Betterkeks (talk) 01:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

re:toes: nope - looks like you are improving the place - that is always very welcome

re: Perth - try the project (WA) talk page and meetup info there JarrahTree 04:16, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

The meetup page is Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth; if you want, you can get a box to display upcoming meetup details on your user or user talk page using {{Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth}} - Evad37 [talk] 23:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Infobox maps

{{Infobox mapframe}} is simple and makes nicely formatted maps for within infoboxes with hardly any parameters – it just requires that the Wikidata item to have midpoint coordinates. Infobox Australian road will automatically use it when the related Wikidata item has coords. (Also, thanks for the work you're doing with maps) - Evad37 [talk] 06:10, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Evad37: I like it, and thank you :).

What I observed emerging was the mapframes all being very similar. I was also worried about consistent styling and maintainability, especially in infoboxes. Your template solves that. I hated having to set width and height; I just want to set a ratio (like 1.618) and let it work out height from available width.

Instead of needing coords in the wikidata record, is it possible to query OSM for the bounding box? Then the mapframe knows what to focus on and what zoom level gives the closest fit. We would not need coords; especially for a long road that single point seems ... contrived.

I did find different mapframes needing a little variation here and there. For example, some maps needed zooming out more than others (so maybe a “zoom-delta” would be nice?), and I almost always wanted to add a caption to put the map in its proper context. Anyway, just some thoughts and ideas. Betterkeks (talk) 13:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

lake baghdad

The big map looks a trifle exaggerated, and the smaller map is good - any chance of more muted colours? JarrahTree 01:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I made the stroke thinner and a deeper shade of red, and zoomed out more. The big map can go I think, if you agree.Betterkeks (talk)

@JarrahTree: Are you OK with that styling now? I suggest we replace the big map with the smaller one (and drop the small map caption). If style is OK, can replicate on Government Lake Page as well. Betterkeks (talk) 01:49, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

In the old days we used to say 'be bold' - as I am irregularly on, better to do it, and see what it looks like - the big maps are pointless... and cartographically speaking I am against anything red - grey is better = but that is just me. cheers - keep up the good work! JarrahTree 09:14, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

next to and overlooks

Kings park lead paragraph - unless I am mistaken, the last time I walked along the main avenue, I could never in my experience and interest in the historical geography of perth ever consider that it is next to. Sorry I am reverting it (if someone else hasnt), it overlooks both perth water and the cbd. The proximity issue next to the cbd really challenges my sense of what geographical perception is all about. Please do not revert my reversion, but perhaps have a converstion about it. Thanks. JarrahTree 15:18, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

It looks as though I might have mis-read the page history, so I'll take it back for the moment. Need to check the edits, yet again. JarrahTree 15:23, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

By bad, apology for that I had indeed - you had put the text about proximity in the photo caption - I had misread it as being put into the caption - which I would argue with as well - Kings park' location is actually as much bounded by the river as it is in any way connected with all the tall buildings of the cbd. JarrahTree 15:28, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Would it be fair to say Kings Park is situated south west of the Perth CBD? Betterkeks (talk) 16:35, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: How about moving the last sentence of the second paragraph into the mapframe caption, replacing the caption? That last sentence is very similar to the last sentence of the first paragraph. (talk) 23:15, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: So “Kings Park overlooks the Perth central business district as well as Perth Water and Melville Water on the Swan River.” This is very similar to “... overlooking the Perth Water and the central business district of Perth, Western Australia.” Betterkeks (talk)

Thank you for considerate tolerance of an old fart - your last comment looks good - again you are generous in your consideration, thanks JarrahTree 00:10, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: No worries :). Betterkeks (talk) 01:20, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

very late notice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/50 - apologies for late notice - hope you are able to make it!! JarrahTree 04:31, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

your question is beyond me - there are two people in at meetup tommorrow who could possibly answer that JarrahTree 12:24, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

canning

I think that the 2 versions of the word noongar in the lead sentence and info box is a bit curious. just a thought JarrahTree 00:02, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Thank you for pointing that out. I have corrected it now. As an aside, I tried using the lang-nys template, but then it shows as “Nyunga”. Do you know what the most acceptable spelling is? Betterkeks (talk) 01:42, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

multiple versions - I think noongar is the best, but gnangara is always a good call on this issue JarrahTree 02:11, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

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Lead sentences

Worth getting a handle on not overloading lead sentences and paras with junk - viz Bibbulum Track they are meant be clear of crap - try looking at articles on a phone and see what multiple refs look like on the first 10twords - junk. Lead is what lead means, summary, overview and clear of the complications. cheers JarrahTree 00:27, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Can you please tell me where in the MOS it says that? (It’s a genuine question; I want to read that bit again.)

BTW I almost always edit on a mobile device ... an iPhone. Betterkeks (talk) 01:09, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section JarrahTree 03:32, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Thank you. Reading MOS:LEADCITE though, citations are just as encouraged in the lead as anywhere else. I would be surprised if it were otherwise. It’s just that a well-written lead should be general enough not to REQUIRE a citation, with the matter being covered in more detail in the body where it would be supported with a reference to the literature. JarrahTree, can we agree to keeping citations in the lead to a minimum, but accept that they may be warranted in some instances? Especially when the lead is not general and the material is not covered in more detail further on? Betterkeks (talk) 12:52, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

remember to WPSIGN. Nope not from me - I believe that articles can always have as little crap (viz viewing on phone) on the lead sentence (amazing some areas of wikipedia some editors just dont get it, like they do not identify the country, and run into stuff not showing any cognisance of what lede/lead means), and minimal refs anywhere near the first line - at the end of the lead para (there again better to have a one liner clear than let it meld into a word bomb chaos lead para)

but hey the place is losing eds and gaining idiots, if youre still editing do what you are comfortable with... just I dont support cluttered lead paras - and that could be a lifes work just fixing that issue. cheers and thanks for th opprtunity for a conversation, trust you have ac, or deep dark cellar, or waterproof iphone - its sticky here in good old ... JarrahTree 12:16, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I would like to think I listen, but then make up my own mind :). I also believe you have to know when to break the rules, and when you do then how to break them beautifully.

I’d hate to hear I’m thought an idiot.

Yes, can’t fix everything, but I do what I can. It’s easier to take a lot of material and then condense it down into a higher quality I think. Especially when it’s supported with citations. And sometimes I write poorly too ... to be fixed later :).

I have the ceiling fan on, the windows open, listening to the chirping crickets. Ahhh ... summer! Betterkeks (talk) 12:53, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

when I lived in Darwin and Java, ceiling fans yes... windows/mosquitos.... I wasnt inferrong/referring to you - its them, the circus/zoo that surrounds our edits, a world of dumb idiots statistically. Keep your lead paras clean.... JarrahTree 13:12, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Yes Sir ... subject to WP:PROVEIT ... ;) ... Betterkeks (talk) 13:24, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: In my opinion, the second sentence in the Bibbulmun Track page as currently written needs a reference to the literature. The length stated is very high resolution, down to 100 metres, and it screams WP:PROVEIT at me. If the statement was more general with the material elaborated further down (where it is then supported by a reference), then fine no reference is needed. But that is not how it is currently. Can we please support the high-resolution length with a reference to the literature? Betterkeks (talk) 00:12, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

gah - this is where wikipedia collapses completely. discusssion/rules goes so far, in the end intuition once you have been around long enough... works just as well as long as it isnt crazy... as long as you dont encounter the full stop parsers on a too regular basis, or the know it alls, or you cannot have discussions without wanting to go out and throw something at something solid to hear the shattering in stereo... - just do it if your intuition says way to go, go JarrahTree 00:45, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I hear you :). I did add a supporting reference (I saw your thanks), but only because that is what my instinct told me was needed in this one instance. I know I am wrong at times, so will always listen to other opinions. Betterkeks (talk) 02:19, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Vokes Hill, South Australia

Hi Betterkeks, I refer to your edits to Richard Maurice (explorer) and Vokes Hill Corner to Cook Road and the spelling of Vokes vs Voakes. I agree that both versions can be found in selected references but as the original author of both articles, I would prefer that the way I chose to spell the name be retained, as the current use of the name is the shorter version. I have done a lot of research into the matter, and have personally visited Vokes Hill. A photograph I took in 2007 clearly shows how the name was spelt in 1956. Another official road sign can be found here [1] I will not begin an edit war as I believe Wikipedia editors should always act in Good Faith. I will leave it to you to decide if the Richard Maurice article does not need to be altered. Summerdrought (talk) 12:27, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

sign to Vokes Hill Corner

@Summerdrought: I’m not interested in an edit war either. Going forward I won’t change this spelling in these two articles after sharing my rationale with you, and leave it up to you :).

My thinking is that there is a person called "William Paul Voake" and there are three things being named: the hill, the corner, and the road. The hill is named after Voake, and there are more authoritive references with that spelling (oldest I found was shipping manifest dating to 1865, there is also a cemetery record) than for “Voke”. The hill was named after Voake, but seems to have been known as Vokes Hill until officially re-gazetted to Voakes Hill. However, the corner was named by Len after the hill before that happened, as is clearly shown on his signs; and the road of course is named after the corner. So I think the corner and the road should continue to be spelt Vokes in recognition of all this history. It was Len’s privilege to name the corner and road, and his decision is clearly depicted on his signs. It was Maurice’s privilege to name the hill. But of course over time stuff can be re-gazetted. It is what it is :). Betterkeks (talk) 23:07, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@Betterkeks: Thank you for your considered response to my comment, I am happy to let things be. I found a mention of William Paul Voake on Ancestry.com stating that he had travelled with Richard Maurice, and died at Fowlers Bay 29 September 1922. So I have no doubt that an early error in the spelling of the name has led to current confusion. A similar thing happened with the spelling of William Tietkens cf Tietkins. Regards Summerdrought (talk) 23:43, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@Summerdrought: No worries. So the corner and road are spelt Voke, the hill and person are spelt Voake. Cool. With your permission may I add something to this effect into the Wikipedia article? Its interesting and might avoid a repeat of this in future. I added references to shipping and cemetery records to the Wikidata record for William Paul Voake (Q62963846).

BTW I love your maps. I have been contributing to the Open Street Map project for about 6 years now, so I’m curious how you make your maps. Betterkeks (talk) 01:22, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

@Betterkeks: Yes no problem, the more information and references the better. Funny though, if you look through the "View history" tab on my Vokes Hill Corner to Cook Road, I had made an edit on 7 March 2017 doubting the spelling of Voke in the newspaper reference. I mentioned "Murray's diary" but I think that must have been a senior moment and should have read "Maurice's diary" (I was born in 1947!). Thank you for your compliment regarding my maps, I use Inkscape an open source download. With a bit of experience, it is a great Scalable Vector Graphics programme. Cheers, Summerdrought (talk) 02:29, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

over-cat

is always a temptation, and is always a good clue when promoting editors want to get their subject/article out there - and if youre not careful a visit from the diffusing non diffusing ed from the wa project turns up and removes things anyways. It was fine as it was. JarrahTree 04:29, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

rotto

very much a case of the editors who used to edit this and related articles are either gone or otherwise involved in other areas - if a section doesnt make sense - either you need to fix it yourself, or even find something to clarify things - leaving comments or hoping for comments from others in most cases is an echo chamber - delete or improve I would suggest... if the original intentions are not clear the likelihood of an explanation - is very low JarrahTree 23:41, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

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happy etc

thank you very much for your edits and improvement of western australian items have a safe multanova free christmas new year - and take it easy - railway bridges are usually in their own family of categories... JarrahTree 11:18, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Thank you, and a very merry Christmas to you and you family, and a happy new year. I undid that almost immediately ... didn’t feel right :). Betterkeks (talk) 11:37, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Leeuwin (ship) moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, Leeuwin (ship), does not have enough sources and citations as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. buidhe 16:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

@Buidhe: It’s an attempt at mirroring the Index Pages of British ships to Dutch ships; see HMS Cygnet et al and wp:SHIPMOS. Currently the articles for Dutch ships are a mess. Betterkeks (talk) 18:16, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Betterkeks, Please cite a source for the information. Unlike disambiguation pages set indices are not exempt from WP:V. buidhe 18:19, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Is it sufficient now?

Your submission at Articles for creation: Leeuwin (ship) has been accepted

Leeuwin (ship), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

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DGG ( talk ) 10:17, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

thanks

for your improvement of materials relative to the dutch ships and their impact on south west oz - much appreciate the detail !!! JarrahTree 00:18, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Amsterdam (indiaman)

A translation question: “spiegelretourschip” would appear to be a comparison of the decorated stern to a decorated mirror, rather than a direct reference to a transom stern. Were plainer transom-sterned vessels also called such? Were Was this a dead metaphor, in other words, or a live one? Qwirkle (talk) 01:26, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

@Qwirkle: I don’t speak Dutch, but understand "spiegelretourschip" is a class of ship, where "retourschip" means "ship that returns", and "spiegel" refers to the typically flat and highly decorated surfaces of the stern of these, similar to a hand mirror. Betterkeks (talk) 12:24, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Inherit: State registered versus Shire registered

Hi Betterkeks, just wondering about your take on State heritage registered versus LGA registered. In my opinion , the latter don't belong in any of the State register of Heritage Places categories as they are not state registered. The latter are plentiful and not necessarily met Wikipedias notability criteria either. On another note, it seems, we may share a common heritage, or at least first language, German. Odd to have not come across each other before but I have been inactive for a few years before returning to the WA project. Machs gut, viel Spaß, Calistemon (talk) 00:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@Calistemon: It’s a bit of a mess isn’t it. In my own mind I settled on just saying it how it is. So if it’s in inherit as State Registered then say that (ignoring additional municipal entries), and if it’s only as Municipal Inventory then say that (but also identify the municipality). The fact is that inherit does show municipal entries (at varying levels). We might need a convention though ... “type”=“State Register” for state and for LGA-only “type”=“Municipal Inventory” + “Municipality”=name-of-LGA.

But I agree that I too thought we need to be careful not to give LGA-level entries too much prominence (maybe by creating a new designation class). Still ... a thing that has been listed over the years in three lists is probably more prominent than a thing that has been in just one. What are your thoughts?

We share a common heritage it seems. Ich komme aus Hannover, lebe in Perth. Und selbst? VG, Betterkeks (talk) 09:00, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

This discussion (in the old days at least) would have been better at the noticeboard for WA -( except the intrusion into the deutschland bit of things) - the levels of the designation of 'heritage' is something that has ramifications for the whole state, if not the whole australian project - the federal - state - LGA separation is well beyond a personal conversation - as where the municipal or LGA designation never gets further than that level - the identification is, imho, sufficient for a place or item to be notable in wikipedia. Maybe we should go to the state or national discussion - as the ramifications are well beyond a local discussion... JarrahTree 09:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Happy to exchange viewpoints and ideas anywhere. Just point me in the right direction. Note that my preference to using templates is all about maintaining a single place where decisions can be made. Betterkeks (talk) 09:47, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

If as I suspect callistemon has gone bush for a while, I'd personally prefer to let the whole thing lapse till he is back again... JarrahTree 09:51, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

No, I'm in Perth, got back this morning actually. I think, one problem is that the State Register of Heritage Places article doesn't explain well enough what sort of listings Inherit carries. I think, one or two fair use images to illustrate might really help there.

Ich selber komme aus einem kleinen Nest in Bayern. Calistemon (talk) 11:28, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

please do not

add explanations at a controversial endlessly edit warred article in an edit summary - it simply gets lost and is of no help to anyone... - it should be on the talk page

the material on the talk page should give you an idea... I am sure you are certain you have the answer - the rate to which the article has been played with over the last ten years - I am certain everyone is wrong in their own way... JarrahTree 10:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I know you’re right. I can still move it if necessary. Most of talk page is really old, so it seems to have settled. The rest of the article ought to be reworked too at some point, and my multiple spellings of Bindjareb addressed. I hope I addressed the concerns with my minor changes. Betterkeks (talk) 11:53, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

No big deal, sincere apology for intruding - there are some articles not worth having on watch list in the end JarrahTree 11:55, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

issue

I would be very interested as to how you might approach the issue of https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_public_art_in_Western_Australia&oldid=963516242 - as you do seem to have a balanced view on quite a few things - my suggestion was to take it to the national noticeboard - as there are ramifications for the whole oz project as to how to deal with the issues - and that is as far as I go with it. cheers JarrahTree 07:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

sigh

If that was a comment to me at mark creasy - bad luck, I have recently discovered a somewhat complex COI by connection,

as I said almost two months ago there are some articles not worth having on watch list in the end - so true. I will not be editing it again. Maybe you could clean them up ? thanks JarrahTree 02:47, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: No, it wasn’t a comment to you. I just noticed a fair number of incomplete citations and I didn’t want to fix them then ... but also didn’t want to just move on. So I added the note so they won’t be forgotten. COI? Conflict of Interest? Betterkeks (talk) 10:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

apologies - I have misread things yet gain, (long live murphy,)... yes I had created very poor refs, WP:COI - I take it very seriously, more than many fellow eds -

I understand the reluctance to not want to have to do the tedious process of fixing up the format - there is a classic article about tasmanian trauma over power some years ago where I had added 40 + improperly formatted refs, however it all catches up in the end... JarrahTree 11:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Kep track signage out there in real world is still extant, https://trailswa.com.au/trails/kep-track exists... JarrahTree 02:38, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Thank you for that reference. I added it. Betterkeks (talk) 05:17, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

uncovering copyvios

always worth calling them out when something smells that way... WP:COPYVIO - JarrahTree 07:33, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Still trying to scope it out. There is clearly WP:COPYVIO which needs to be either deleted or reworked. I need to put this aside now though, kids want dinner soon, so maybe just a section banner. Betterkeks (talk) 07:42, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I marked up the sections where I suspect mostly WP:COPYVIO, added the page to "the list", and posted on the author's talk page ... but he looks like having retired. Betterkeks (talk) 12:05, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

sigh - so many do so, better just to remove where you think it is, and if someone want to reisntate with valid cites great, otherwise imho, not worth bringing in the troops, the suspicion, in this case if worth removing when in doubt. Not in every situation mind you.

Ahh, I know the story... if we ever meet in real life ever I can give an explanation or two JarrahTree 12:08, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

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as an academic once said

An english anthropologist studying outsiders understanding of balinese communities once had as a title for an article it's great music, but can you dance to it? - nee hau to that I say - at the article of issue - great extra reading, but what are the chances of anyone dealing with the issues? JarrahTree 00:05, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Greyhound racing

Hi Betterkeks, just thought I would drop you a note and thank you for the changes to greyhound pages. Just a note for future reference, greyhound racing does not record race distances in feet so there is no need for converting columns, I guess it does not harm but it may give the reader the imrpession that greyhound racing uses distances in feet. Kind regards ApricotFoot (talk) 01:23, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@ApricotFoot: I find non-SI units confusing and inelegant, but I also see Americans very often genuinely struggle with SI units. They’re just not used to it. So to make it easy for everyone to be able to read and comprehend articles without having to stop and think too much, AND to unify formatting of units, I use convert and cvt wherever possible. BUT this is also in line with mos:CONVERSIONS and looking at List of All Greyhound Racing Tracks in America Throughout 12 Different States greyhound racing in the US seems to use US customary units. If use of metric in Australian greyhound racing is significant, it should be mentioned though somewhere. Betterkeks (talk) 03:15, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback Betterkeks, UK racing also only ever refers to metres. What do you suggest? on the relevant talk pages maybe? ApricotFoot (talk) 12:47, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@ApricotFoot: I suggest the primary unit be metres because Australia and Australian greyhound racing uses metres, and the secondary unit be feet (or miles) because readers from the US struggle with metres and US greyhound racing uses feet and miles.

Track Layout
Greyhound America uses feet and miles on their webpage called List of All Greyhound Racing Tracks in America Throughout 12 Different States.
Track Layout

Betterkeks (talk) 22:25, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Theory of...

Sorry... I think I stuffed up your edits to the Theory of the Portuguese Discovery of Australia. This was unintentional we must have been working at the same time - I was reverting Shutehaven's ongoing effort to add reference to his articles to the page. Nickm57 (talk) 02:12, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

@Nickm57: No worries :). Betterkeks (talk) 02:17, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

porongorups

not sure why or how whaling has anything to do with the porongorups, I hope the revert at the article is adequately geographically appropriate... the idea of whales at castle rock is a little problematic JarrahTree 11:40, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: You’re right! :) I didn’t spot that while cleaning up references on that page recently. Thank you for covering for my oversight. Betterkeks (talk) 22:54, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

no problem - its not like some of the more subtle interventions around against reality... easy to miss... JarrahTree 08:56, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

perplexed

thank you for your message. very unsure myself - I do not think it is a good idea - however the complexities of where some things start and other finish, are compounded when the dots are crossed and tees are conjugated, and the actual content and context are lost in the scrub, for neither the trees or the wood are actually reached. JarrahTree 05:42, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I had sent an email to explain much more clearly, however your response at the appropriate place seems reasonable. JarrahTree 10:04, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Followup

Kaya, following up about my comment regarding students contributing see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education for how much its supported and encouraged in the community. May also be a useful resource for those involved Gnangarra 06:17, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

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invite

Greetings

It is noted that you edit in the rarefied space of content about Perth, Western Australia - it is thought you might be in Perth - and be able to possibly meet up

You maybe interested in some events coming up in the near future - an opportunity to meet fellow Wikipedians, as well as being involved in: -

————

This Saturday - 14th August 2021

Wikipedia Annual conference - known as Wikimania

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/71

———

In September -

10th Anniversary of the Fremantle photo work:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/72

————

Both events also tie in with the extended 20th Birthday of wikipedia -

Celebrated in limited manner last Sunday:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/70

———

Please feel free to forward to others if they have been missed...

Any queries - please do not hesitate to contact for more details:

User:Bahnfrend User:SamWilson JarrahTree 07:48, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks

your changes are correct - its the other way - if you had done in the other direction, that would have been considered disrespectful - as it is thanks. JarrahTree 05:32, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

had it - no more monkeys jumping on the bed - please do not ping me regarding rail issues, for the moment - thanks for your understanding... JarrahTree 07:46, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

as for the comment elsewhere - honestly after being out in a sunny afternoon today and a raging headache - the comment is close to incomprehensible to me - temporal locations in various realities are not really in my vocabulary tonight - I consider my capacity to cope with that not possible at this stage. JarrahTree 10:16, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Being out in the sunny afternoon sounds awesome, but the headache not so much – sorry, and hope you’re better soon. As for my comment being incomprehensible – that is a worry, so if it’s still incomprehensible when you’re feeling better, please let me know. I was doing my best to respect your wish not to be pinged on this you know. Betterkeks (talk) 13:17, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

- hey no big deal, my position has been emailed, apologies for that but it might become clearer in the email. JarrahTree 13:31, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

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Happy new year

There is something about Escher in all of this - endless - (question at double word place names) - count me out... Happy new year (caps removed deliberately) JarrahTree 11:33, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: LOL! Happy New year. :} I don't know how to untangle this, and don't like the resulting inconsistencies. Hopefully dialogue brings clarity, but I am not hopeful. Betterkeks (talk) 11:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry the prognosis is terrible... JarrahTree 11:59, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Category:Plymouth Brethren Christian schools in Australia

The page Category:Plymouth Brethren Christian schools in Australia has been deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under two or more of the criteria for speedy deletion, by which pages can be deleted at any time, without discussion. As the page met any of these strictly-defined criteria, it was deleted by an administrator. The reasons it has been deleted are:

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interpretation etc

https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/23397742?keyword=swan%20brewery%20canning%20vale would suggest that State Library of Western Australia has 38 metres of archive material from the brewery ? that is quite a lot compared to the https://trove.nla.gov.au/people/462449worst - which allegedly used to throw stuff out with abandon, or allegedly holds onto stuff well beyond use by date JarrahTree

09:36, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Was this meant for me? Betterkeks (talk) 04:07, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

It wasnt meant to be too obtuse/imprenetrable - you were at the time editing something that had swan brewery info - swan brewery when taken over relinquished what looked like 38 metres (if it was annotated correctly) - whereas the local newspaper has a throw away long term practice which has very little archival material placed anywhere - I thought it had relevance as to how local perth editors have little opportunity to understand or interpret due to the proprietal nature of some institutions - it seemed that had been part of a conversation that we might have had at some stage... if it wasnt and is still all obtuse to you, I am sure there will be a day and way to explain the problem further JarrahTree 10:58, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Shopping Centres

Thanks for shopping centre editing - lotsa work still needed there... JarrahTree 03:34, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I finished a first cosmetic pass through Category:Shopping centres in Perth, Western Australia. The history sections for the Westfield shopping centres are very detailed, in need of attention, and both Booragoon and Whitford City still need further research to address all concerns, with the latter additionally in dire need of references. I also think Trinity Arcade can move into it’s own article. But I think I’ll let it sit for a while now to give others that care the opportunity to have their say; I did some edgy stuff there with wikidata that I’m not sure will take, and for Trinity Arcade the map still points to the church. [..] Betterkeks (talk) 01:41, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I thought about the different types of shopping centres to place the arcades and passages around Perth, but now think the differences aren't significant enough at this point. They’re all just “centres”, only taking different forms. Betterkeks (talk) 04:02, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

as a pathological user of rater I rile and rave (off wiki) at the constraints of inadequate active projects to cover nuanced material - some cases there are simply not appropriate projects to align with some specific article and category areas... the same goes for some of the abysmally childishly named projects and category trees... this we have to live with... JarrahTree 04:54, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: A further dimension: the category hierarchies in Commons and Wikipedia aren't aligned. I noticed there are categories in Commons for shopping centres and for arcades. Betterkeks (talk) 05:37, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Cut-and-paste move

In this edit I have requested that a page mover carry out the move from Direct Factory Outlets to Direct Factory Outlet. I've reverted your cut-and-paste move in the meantime because it splits the page history and creates attribution issues. DanCherek (talk) 12:53, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

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WP:SHIPNAME

Hi. I noticed that a few years ago you moved 't Wapen van Hoorn to ''t Wapen van Hoorn (1619), citing WP:SHIPNAME. That surprised me, since normally it goes against WP:CONCISE to have the primary landing page for a term be a redirect to a parenthetically-disambiguated version of it. I checked SHIPNAME and I don't see anything that would create an exception to that, but maybe I didn't look hard enough; am I missing something? -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 19:23, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

@Tamzin: There are five ships with that name by VOC. That article is about ONE of those five. There really ought to be a disambiguation page, but I didn’t get to it. Betterkeks (talk) 13:13, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Giustiniani

Thanks for your edit, I was interrupted when making the entry and had the wrong diary. Fixed now. Giustiniani is indeed fascinating. There is a thesis on him, which I refer to in the entry on Giustiniani.

Indigenous placenames debate

Hi there, there is a discussion raging at the moment that will hopefully lead to a formal end to the debate and edit warring around inclusion of Aboriginal placenames in articles. I have greatly appreciated your input before on this issue and if you have the energy it'd be great to have your contribution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Australian_Wikipedians%27_notice_board#Indigenous_names Noticeboard Poketama (talk) 11:45, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Here it is

It could be tidied up perhaps... [2] JarrahTree 12:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

There needs to be something that hi-lights earlier successful separations JarrahTree 14:42, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Got it :). I'll also add the Fly/Victoria Hall/Drill Hall example. Betterkeks (talk) 14:46, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

a major plus would be a 'how to' of creating separate wikidata entries (2x or 3x or whatever) from one article - do you think that would be possible to do so on yet another sub-page ? The main purpose of the exercise is to expedite the connections between articles and wikidata, so if you were able to do so, it would be fantastic... JarrahTree 05:25, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: It would be fantastic, but that is also a very substantial topic; see database normalization and logic programming. But it ought to be possible to come up with a "manifesto". Betterkeks (talk) 06:08, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Ooops - I understand very clearly where you are coming from there, and yoiks, I am thinking of the task of the very superficial level of peripheral editing around the larger topic - (a) with wikidata open (b) with english wikipedia open (c) description on wikidata checked or edited (d) short description of english wikipedia checked or edited (e) variant/sub topic identified in both/either wikis in some way (maybe see also, or not) - so no process required other than usual editing... JarrahTree 06:16, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

zig zag

apart from the one at the very end of the mundaring weir railway when the weir was first constructed, the gooseberry hill one as a regular piece of mainline until 1949, deserves

an article stand alone, I think. The road and its rather tedious history of various editions (sic) of the kalamunda council prognosticating on various forms of control of hoons and how to respond is as colourful as watching Clockwork Orange, with the photographs showing up on the abc news as to why... other un-personned locations in the hills that come to mind (at least 3 others) require 'gating' after hours for similar issues, and some permanently closed. The adjacent ground to the gated locations offer up ample evidence as to the activities in previous eras of less control. The locations could be easily monitored by cctv,(some are now) however maybe the various authorities are under-funded for such systems. JarrahTree 04:40, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

the kalamunda council in the last twenty years has actually spent money to check the feasibility of restoring the alignment to being a railway - (the story was the people involved were inspired by the short lived restuarant train that actually went over main line way back when railway admin wasnt so averse to something as traction that wasnt their own, passing over their lines) however there are quite a few issues - where to source rail, sleepers and rolling stock and propulsion - I challenge anyone to understand the ad hoc politics of gaining any of the aforementioned without luck, serendipity and knowing the right person at the right time and place - and the resultant inherent probability that such resources are now very difficult to locate or appropriate - the stories of rail closures and known internal memos that stated very specifically 'close it asap we want the rails for somewhere else' - cannabalisation in the railway system of its own materials is well known but not understood by outsiders that well. So the zig zag revitalisation fell over as much as being wrong place wrong time as anything else. JarrahTree 05:05, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

unfortunately I did not keep press clippings on what I am outlining here (quite a bit of ad hoc unverifiable anecdotes that are not easy to 'unwrap' so to speak) - there may be very limited online material about it, the kalamunda history people have at least a couple of books about the old line, but the possibility of good sources about the railway plan are limited, I hope I am wrong... JarrahTree 05:11, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

amazing what a bit of publicity does - the zig zag drive this afternoon was chockers with sunday drivers - even a drone wandering around above stathams... JarrahTree 11:52, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

worth checking my commons additions tonight, might give an idea... JarrahTree 13:23, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

none of it simplified by the fact there is also another article about the upper darling range railway - which as they say 'pertains' to the full length of the railway as built and closed in 1949 - so it, the zig zag scenic drive/railway is in effect a discrete 'section' in railway terms - from where ridge hill road is now, up to the top where it goes across the ridge in gooseberry hill suburb... JarrahTree 08:34, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I looked at the upper darling range railway (UDRR) article (among other things). The Kalamunda Zig Zag (KZZ) article says (“a zig zag was built between Ridge Hill and Gooseberry Hill stations”, and the termini are Ridge Hill and Gooseberry Hill, all in the suburb of Gooseberry Hill) the KZZ is the section of the UDRR between Ridge Hill (at or near 31.9378405°S 116.0434936°E / -31.9378405; 116.0434936) and Gooseberry Hill (at or near 31.9549322°S 116.0512538°E / -31.9549322; 116.0512538, as best as I can tell) stations. Did I understand that wrong? I checked MRWA, and Zig Zag Scenic Drive is oneway and 40 km/h between Ridge Hill Road and Ocean View Parade, and bidirectional and 50 km/h between there and where it turns into Lascelles Parade at or near 31.9420391°S 116.0486518°E / -31.9420391; 116.0486518. Is “where it goes across the ridge in gooseberry hill suburb” in the oneway section? Or is the KZZ completely coincident with Zig Zag Scenic Drive? Betterkeks (talk) 10:40, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

what a night, I was sure I had replied - not sure where it went... JarrahTree 12:38, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

kzz is same as zzsd, lascelles parade, ocean view parade as upper marker points, ridge hill road the lower... kzz is two lane between lascelles and ocean view - see my photos updated to commons... JarrahTree 13:55, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

UTC)

@JarrahTree: I think we are done then (with the untangling). Lascelles Parade ends at Tella Street and continues as Williams Street. I think KZZ ran from Lascelles west of Williams towards Gooseberry Hill Station which was (as best as I can tell) west of Williams and north of Gooseberry Hill Road. Today there is a bicycle path where the railway ran south of Tella Street. Betterkeks (talk) 15:37, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Correction, FYI. According to this page, the Gooseberry Hill railway station was SOUTH of Gooseberry Hill Road (at or near 31°57′22″S 116°03′06″E). (But it still means there is a section of the KZZ that is not road today but bicycle path.) Betterkeks (talk) 01:33, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

The bitumened road of KZZ is a bowdlerised version of the original rail alignment... and can cause confusion... indeed JarrahTree 01:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

some very very good news, I have found a definitive text version of everything one wanted to know about the kzz subject, I am out for most of day, but will email details... JarrahTree 02:28, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

then there was the Mundaring weir formation... [3] which lasted until about the same time as the demise of the kzz - maybe a few years before, as the rail connection before the raising of the wall was useful, to a point...

JarrahTree 07:21, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Editor of the Week

		Editor of the Week
		Your ongoing efforts to improve the encyclopedia have not gone unnoticed: You have been selected as Editor of the Week in recognition of your great contributions! (courtesy of the Wikipedia Editor Retention Project)

User:Buster7 submitted the following nomination for Editor of the Week:

Betterkeks has been an active editor since May of 2018. In that time they have added over 9000 edits with 91% in mainspace. They have been especially active at improving information at COVID-19 pandemic in Australia and Louis Giustiniani. A trusted, productive and helpful editor, Bettrkeks is a member in good standing at Wikipedians in Western Australia.

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Betterkeks

Editor of the Week for the week beginning June 12, 2022

Active since May 2018. Over 9000 edits with 91% in mainspace. Especially active at improving information at COVID-19 pandemic in Australia and Louis Giustiniani. A trusted, productive and helpful editor and a member in good standing at Wikipedians in Western Australia

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Thanks again for your efforts! ―Buster7 ☎ 14:09, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

@Buster7: Thank you! Betterkeks (talk) 09:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Derby, Western Australia

Could you please have a look at the coordinates in the Derby, Western Australia? I'm not familiar with the template you used there but it doesn't seem to display correctly. Probably just a quick fix, just don't know how. Calistemon (talk) 05:36, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• @Calistemon: Done. This error was caused by wikidata returning MULTIPLE population values, which is possible since the 2021 census data has been imported into Wikidata, and the wikidata template currently not honouring the “current” constraint. One solution (which is what I did) is to make the population for 2021 the “preferred” value in Wikidata (until the wikidata template is fixed to honour “current”). I regret experimenting with using wikidata now; maybe its not ready. Betterkeks (talk) 08:00, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
• @Calistemon: FYI, I did that by editing population here by

1. click edit
2. click on icon immediately to left of population value
3. click “Preferred rank” from drop down
4. click “published”
5. refresh (F5)
6. notice that property value now has a green background

Betterkeks (talk) 08:20, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Just to clarify, you are saying the multiple population data on Wikidata is affecting the way coordinates are displayed in an article when drawing the data directly from Wikidata rather then entering it here? That is a rather unusual side effect! I noticed your edit related to P1082, the population value. Have you thought of raising it with the people who created the feature? They might be able to address it somehow. Calistemon (talk) 09:15, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• @Calistemon: The Derby coordinate is for a "city", and a city would like the population of that city (so, following Postel's law, I pass it). Since coordinate, population and name are all available in wikidata, I get them from there. I did raise it with them (here), and they suggested the “mark the one you want with ‘preferred’ method”, which I did to resolve it. It’s not a good solution, but it works.

I have reasoned why “current” ought to get the *most* current, and am waiting to see if they agree before taking the next step. The change I made ensures only ONE value is returned, but it ALSO ignores CURRENT and picks the FIRST value entered, which isn’t the most current 2021 value, but at least it means the coordinate doesn’t break again if someone accidentally deletes the “preferred” in wikidata.

Its all very brittle, and I would never have made the change in the first place had I known it was this brittle. If the wikidata template isn’t fixed soon, I think a more robust approach is needed: (1) revert back to pre-wikidata or (2) introduce a new template ("wcoord"?) that selects the 2021 census data always, and use that instead of coord and wikidata. Then in five years update that template and start using 2026 data everywhere. But its not ideal, so I want to see if I have convinced the wikidata template people to make “current” select the most current data instead of (1) all data or (2) the oldest data. Betterkeks (talk) 09:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for detailed reply, I see you have done what you could. The feature of drawing population data from Wikidata is pretty new so the fact that there is some teething issues has to be accepted, I guess. One thing for sure, I wouldn't have been able to fix the coordinates on the Derby article, I wouldn't have made the connection. Calistemon (talk) 10:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Calistemon: And I could never have done the heritage work you did 😀. For coord, I think the way to go is the approach taken for population data. Betterkeks (talk) 08:50, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I found another candidate, Leonora, Western Australia. I tried to follow your instructions but no drop down menu appears and I can't change the rank. Is there something else I need to have enabled? Its obviously not an access rights thing as your edit at derby was actually done logged out. Calistemon (talk) 08:33, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Disregard, done.Calistemon (talk) 09:15, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@Calistemon: No problem 😀. Betterkeks (talk) 09:30, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

small problem

back to the problem - a mix - the company and the mine - conflated or adequately separated... ? JarrahTree 10:51, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I made it a bit clearer by (1) naming the owner and (2) stating the owner entered receivership. The article itself is primarily about the mine. I hope that suits? Betterkeks (talk) 11:29, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

easy thanks, it smells of the problem raised earlier.. JarrahTree 11:48, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

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proximity

have you walked the walkway yet between the two?

I missed out yesterday as the timetable was special ops only

they closed down on the line by 6 pm - sad...

As for adjacent, I will tell you when I get around to doing the walkway..

JarrahTree 03:13, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I have not. I wanted to, but had other commitments. I saw your photos though :). I have been at the site quite a few time since constructuon began, and aerial photograps show the distance between the two being about 45 metres, surrounded by the carpark with a diameter of over 300 metres. Aren't there travellators in the Skybridge? Betterkeks (talk) 03:43, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Havent been there yet, some time soon...

I was very disappointed that the 380 bus got pulled from the larger picture, its just that little more tedious to get there...

when we on the 5 + trains yesterday got told this is the last train out of here today due to special timetable after that I only managed to get a view of the SCT locos in the Forrestfield yard in the failing light.

Bayswater station area has been so well covered by Steelkamp, Callistemon and Evad, and it looks like it will be a subject for happy snappers for ages yet - a working piece over time... JarrahTree 08:53, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I think I’m done for the moment. Undoubtedly others will make their own improvements. It’s a living thing, and as long as it keeps improving ...

Agree about Bayswater!

We just need more pictures now, ideally without people that may be recognised. An external wide-area view and entrance of each station, any interesting architectural and art angles at each, and one for the overall line (which to me is all about being underground, so maybe a snap of a train emerging from the tunnel at one of the stations). Maybe on Sunday afternoon, when it’s a little quieter ...

Betterkeks (talk) 09:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

YGM

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JarrahTree 10:48, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Precious

places in West Australia and Germany

Thank you for quality articles such as The Humps, for improving many articles about places such as Marktkirche, Hannover Airport, 2022 Nord Stream pipeline sabotage, Explorers' Monument (Western Australia) and Roter Faden, for "I hope I am not treading on any toes :)", - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

You are recipient no. 2775 of Precious, a prize of QAI. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:46, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Wow, very humbling. Thank you 😊! Betterkeks (talk) 10:36, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

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Peace Dove

Peace is a state of balance and understanding in yourself and between others, where respect is gained by the acceptance of differences, tolerance persists, conflicts are resolved through dialog, peoples rights are respected and their voices are heard, and everyone is at their highest point of serenity without social tension.

Happy Holidays. ―Buster7 ☎ 07:48, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Fremantle Arts Centre/whatever at ANI

Hello, just letting you know: see the relevant topic. Maybe a split might've been helpful but not quite like what ended up happening ... Graham87 14:07, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@Graham87: I’m still trying to fully grasp what happened, but please be assured that was not the intent. Betterkeks (talk) 03:46, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

One year!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:15, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

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ArbCom 2023 Elections voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2023 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 11 December 2023. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

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CS1 error on Broyhanhaus (restaurant)

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