Azlanistani

July 2017

Please do not add commentary or your own personal analysis to Wikipedia articles, as you did to Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah (organisation). Doing so violates Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. For example, "the only group whose beliefs and teachings are truly in accordance with the Quran and Sunnah" is unambiguously an expression of a point of view, and people with a different point of view would disagree with it. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 19:59, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

July 2017

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a message letting you know that one or more of your recent edits to Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah (organisation) has been undone by an automated computer program called ClueBot NG.

• ClueBot NG makes very few mistakes, but it does happen. If you believe the change you made was constructive, please read about it, report it here, remove this message from your talk page, and then make the edit again.
• For help, take a look at the introduction.
• The following is the log entry regarding this message: Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah (organisation) was changed by Azlanistani (u) (t) ANN scored at 0.871302 on 2017-07-21T20:15:26+00:00 .

Thank you. ClueBot NG (talk) 20:15, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to violate Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy by adding commentary and your personal analysis into articles, you may be blocked from editing. ^{My name is}not^dave (talk/contribs) 21:10, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the previous edits I made were in fact not neutral and that was my mistake, sorry. But, the recent edits I've just made that 'my name is not dave' has called 'disruptive edits' are not 'disruptive' and do not violate the neutral point of view. Though, they look similar to my previous edits, I have fixed them to make them as neutral as possible yet you still have a problem with them.

Please see WP:RS. Greedo8 21:24, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Azlanistani, you are invited to the Teahouse!

Hi Azlanistani! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Wikipedia and get help from experienced editors like ChamithN (talk). Visit the Teahouse We hope to see you there! Delivered by HostBot on behalf of the Teahouse hosts 20:02, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah (July 28)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Curb Safe Charmer was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page.
• You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 15:16, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Sunni Islam

Hi-- As I wrote in User_talk:Tanbircdq#Ahlus-Sunnah_wa.E2.80.99l-Jama.E2.80.99ah, ahl al-sunnah wa-l-jamaa'h is the Arabic term for the denomination called Sunni Islam in the bulk of English-language reliable sources. On English WP, we should follow this standard usage. Thanks. Eperoton (talk) 01:06, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Let me cite you some more sources then

http://www.darulfatwa.org.au/en/the-correct-meaning-of-the-term-ahlus-sunnah-wal-jamaah/

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?462927-The-Ashari-and-The-Maturidi-The-Aqida-Schools-of-Ahlus-Sunnah-Wal-Jamaah

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/ahlsunna.htm

I'll cite some books as well when I have time but all these sources say that the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah is the Ash'aris and the Maturidis. Indeed, Sunni Islam is often referred to as Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah but that is because the majority of Sunnis are Ash'aris and Maturidis.

Sunni Islam is always referred to as ahl al-sunnah wa-l-jama'ah (or ahl al-sunnah for short) by Sunni Muslims in Arabic, because that's the Arabic term which is translated by the English term "Sunni Islam". Sunni Islam is occasionally also referred to by its Arabic name ahl al-sunnah wa-l-jama'ah in English, mainly in religious works. This has nothing to do with theological schools which Sunnis follow, but is simply a matter of preference by some authors to use Arabic instead of English terms. We should follow the standard terminology used in English-language reliable sources. If you survey secondary academic sources discussing Ash'ari or Maturidi theology, you'll see that the vast majority use the English term "Sunni" and not its Arabic counterpart ahl al-sunnah wa-l-jama'ah. Eperoton (talk) 14:04, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I live in the UK and everyone here refers to Ash'aris and Maturidis as Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah and they use the term Sunni to refer to Sunni Muslims separately and I know this for fact. Also everyone I know or have spoken to from other countries all around the world, including ones that speak Arabic, also use the term Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah for Ash'aris and Maturidis and the term Sunni for Sunni Muslims. Everyone I know and have spoken to uses the term Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah and Sunni separately.

While that's interesting to hear, what you're describing is your personal experience and hence it falls under the category of original research (please click on the link if you haven't read this policy yet, seeing that you are a new editor). It contradicts the sources cited in Sunni Islam on the relationship of the terms Sunni and ahl al-sunnah. It even contradicts the sources you cited above. In the last one these terms are used interchangeably in several places, as in the sentence "Today most Muslims in the world are in the Madhhab of Ahl as-Sunnah (i.e; most Muslim's claim to be Sunni's)." If you wish to use the term ahl al-sunnah (wa-l-jama'ah) in some sense distinct from Sunni Islam, please find reliable sourcess which explain the difference between these terms. Otherwise, we need to stick to the standard English terms found in RSs. Here are just a couple of references using it for the kalam schools:

1) Asharis - Classical Sunni theological school (tenth to twelfth centuries), founded by Abu al-Hasan al-Ashari (The Oxford Dictionary of Islam)

2) Māturīdiyya - a theological school named after its founder Abū Manṣūr al-Māturīdī [q.v.] which in the Mamlūk age came to be widely recognised as the second orthodox Sunnī kalām school besides the As̲h̲ʿariyya. (EI2) Eperoton (talk) 22:23, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@Eperoton: The attempt to exclude rival groups from Sunnism is an old one, as the more zealous in the Muslim world consider it the ultimate insult. Atharis/Salafis claim that Ash'aris and Maturidis are philosophers who usurped the mantle of Sunnism, and Ash'aris and Maturidis claim that Atharism never existed before Ibn Taymiyyah. Both are dishonest and factually incorrect, and both play on (supposed) non-Muslim unfamiliarity with sectarian polemics to pass off said polemics as fact rather than opinion. I just found this individual's contribs via another article, and I'm seeing the same tired, expired pattern now. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:28, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Eperoton Sunni Islam is sometimes referred to as Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah because that is what the Prophet Muhammad said is the true and preserved version of Islam. The Ash'aris and Maturidis were the first to claim this name so other sectors in Sunni Islam try and trick the less knowledgeable by making them believe that Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah is the term for Sunni Islam in general when in fact Sunni Islam is the term for Sunni Islam and Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah is the term for Ash'aris and Maturidis.

Azlanistani, your arguments won't make any headway here unless you back them up with solid sources meeting WP:RS criteria. Eperoton (talk) 00:05, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Ok Eperoton, I will stop making arguments until I find a reliable source that meets the WP:RS criteria. In the meantime, I'd like to tell you that in a lot of articles I edited with the intention of improving them, I referred to Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah but I meant it as Ash'aris and Maturidis and it doesn't make sense if it's referring to Sunni Islam so would you like me to replace it with "Ash'aris and Maturidis"?

Thanks. Yes, naming those schools explicitly seems to be the clearest way of referring to them together. Eperoton (talk) 22:42, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Eperoton I have one more request from you and that is that you prove to me that Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah and Sunni Islam are completely and utterly synonymous because the source cited in Sunni Islam states "Sunnī Muslims have thus referred to themselves as ahl al-sunnah wa al-jamāʿah" which would still be true in the point that I'm making because "Sunni Muslims" can mean any Sunni Muslim including Ash'aris and Maturidis. I don't want to come across as a trouble maker here on Wikipedia, it's just that I've never heard of Sunni Islam and Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah being used as synonyms and I've always thought that Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah is within Sunni Islam but is not the same as Sunni Islam if you know what I mean.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at here. There are multiple RSs which state that Sunnis formally refer to themselves by that name (likewise, Oxford Bibliographies: "The Sunnis came to formally refer to themselves as ahl al-sunna wʾal-jamaʿa"). We have no RSs which state that only Ash'aris and Maturidis use it. Obviously, since some of them use the term "Sunni" as a mark of their own orthodoxy and deny that Salafis are Sunnis, you'll find some individuals who use both variants in a more exclusive way, and perhaps there's some differential usage of the English and Arabic forms that you've been exposed to. Be that as it may, I'm sure you can verify without my help that Hanbalis and Salafis have also called themselves ahl al-sunnah..., and, needless to say, WP follows academic usage and doesn't take sides in religious polemics. If you'd like to learn more about the somewhat complex early history of the Arabic term, please consult the articles on sunnah and jama'ah in EI2. Eperoton (talk) 19:18, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

November 2017

Hello. Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia.

When editing Wikipedia, there is a field labeled "Edit summary" below the main edit box. It looks like this:

Edit summary (Briefly describe your changes)

I noticed your recent edit to Barelvi does not have an edit summary. Please be sure to provide a summary of every edit you make, even if you write only the briefest of summaries. The summaries are very helpful to people browsing an article's history.

Edit summary content is visible in:

• User contributions
• Recent changes
• Watchlists
• Revision differences
• IRC channels
• Related changes
• New pages list
• Article editing history

Please use the edit summary to explain your reasoning for the edit, or a summary of what the edit changes. You can give yourself a reminder to add an edit summary by setting Preferences → Editing → Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary. Thanks! Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 10:12, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Draft:Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah concern

Hi there, I'm HasteurBot. I just wanted to let you know that Draft:Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah, a page you created, has not been edited in 5 months. The Articles for Creation space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for articlespace.

If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion. If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it.

You may request Userfication of the content if it meets requirements.

If the deletion has already occured, instructions on how you may be able to retrieve it are available at WP:REFUND/G13.

Thank you for your attention. HasteurBot (talk) 01:36, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah

Hello, Azlanistani. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply and remove the {{db-afc}}, {{db-draft}}, or {{db-g13}} code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. HasteurBot (talk) 16:00, 28 January 2018 (UTC)