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Moldovan/Romanian

With the court decision explicitly stating that the declaration of independence prevails over the constitution in this matter, I don't see why the infobox should mention "Moldovan" anymore, other than in a footnote. --illythr (talk) 21:32, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Despite decision of the court, constitution remains the main document of the state. And until there is written that Moldovan is the official language of the state it remains unchanged. More than that decision was a political game because decision of Constitutional Court should be based only on constitution, and judge if NEW law adopted by Parliament does not conflict with CONSTITUTION, but not if 2 historical documents mean the same or not. --Algav (talk) 10:32, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, they weaseled around that by saying that the Declaration of independence is the same document as the constitution. Of course it's a silly political game, but it is also the country's supreme court who made that ruling. Not much to do here, other than try and keep the nationalist wave from overrunning the article in the next few days. --illythr (talk) 13:00, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh come on, now the game is over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.106.50.9 (talk) 13:04, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Political game it was from the start, when they named the language Moldovan in the 1994 Constitution. Actually this was a restoration from a judicial point of view. I think we all knew that the language was Romanian from a linguistic point of view. Now it also became official in the Constitution (as the Declaration of Independence makes commons body with the other dispositions of the Constitution). You know, Moldovan was never a language just a political name given to Romanian in Moldova (that was also the consensus here at Wikipedia, when we first talked about the content of the article ”Moldovan language”). Now it still is a political term but, officialy, it does not prevail anymore over ”Romanian”.--Danutz (talk) 17:47, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

"Moldovan" ("Moldavian") was the name given to the language back when nationalism, as a political tool for keeping the populace in line with the ambitions of its politicians, wasn't invented yet, and meant simply the language spoken by the inhabitants of Moldavia. So this game's been going on since at least 19th century. But that's all old stuff. Concerning the new developments, I do approve the change - it made no sense teaching the language under a different name in schools - just not the weird way they did it, by sewing together two different documents, written by different people for different purposes. Besides, the Declaration "lies" at this point - it says "recalling ... the laws reintroducing Romanian as the state language and the Latin alphabet on August 31, 1989," whereas the actual laws it references use the name "Moldovan". Instead of delving into that murk, they should've organized a referendum, which would've led to the same result without providing the opposition with ammunition about how this was, once again, not a decision of "the people", but of the "ruling elite".

But this is all politics. What matters for us here is the representation of this mess in the relevant article. Any objections or suggestions to this version? --illythr (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

OK, if you really think that decision of the Constitutional Court prevails over the constitution then you should be honest till the end. You should add Moldovan language to the regional languages because it is official in Gagauzia according to "Legal Code Of Gagauzia (Gagauz-Yeri)" article 16(1) "The Gagauz, Moldovan and Russian languages are the official languages of Gagauzia." --Algav (talk) 21:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That would be highly confusing to the reader and quite dishonest, since the it would be playing on a technicality. Besides, the constitutional law probably trumps regional laws in such cases. Nevertheless, we could probably use a clarification "Romanian (under the name "Moldovan") for such cases". --illythr (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

All situation about these two languages is highly confusing. But if article is about state that has its own constitution where clearly is written the name of the language then we should point it out. But all other disagreements either Moldovan language should exist or not should be mentioned in appropriate article.

Speaking about regional law "Legal Code Of Gagauzia (Gagauz-Yeri)" article 16(1) it can not be undervaluated because decision on Constitutional Court was only about two documents, declaration of independence and state constitution. --Algav (talk) 23:09, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, according to this decision of the constitutional court, the declaration of independence *is* part of the constitution, and a dominant part at that. We do point out the discrepancy in a footnote, though. As for any laws contradicting the constitution - see article 7 of the constitution. --illythr (talk) 01:28, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Look at this from a practical point of view. You travel to a country and try to find facts about it and get confused because they call the same language a different name. Somebody may get confused to find out that there's an Austrian, Australian or Mexican language. Sure enough there are differences between Spanish in Mexico and Spanish in Spain or Argentina. But, for example, if we travel to Mexico and buy a dictionary to Spanish, that will solve our communication problems. One single name for the same language should not be a political issue but a simple reality. --Ciprianboboc (talk) 06:21, 7 December 2013 (UTC)ciprianboboc

Historically speaking, foreign travelers to Moldova have indicated that Moldovans call their language Romanian (often giving the quote "Sti romineasti?", in which they meant "Știi românește?"). Allthough the point of moldovenists was always that the name "Romanian" only apperared with the creation of the modern state Romania, that is simply wrong: look at Aromanian populations in the Balkans which have had no contact with Romanians since the 9th century, but still use the phrase "Zburăști arumaneaști?" (they have a tendency to put "a-" before many words.)

Anyway, my opinion is that a referendum wont help this issue, at least not just yet. For a referendum to be organised there will need to be an extended campaign to raise awareness of both terms historical use, and the pragmatic benefits of using both of the terms. Honestly I think that using the term "Moldovan" will cause further language depreciation (compare afrikaans and nederlands). Nonetheless, it will cause Moldova economic losses due to failure of catering Romanian and international businesses who would want to externalise their Romanian language services (including call centers, translators, etc.). --Danutz (talk) 09:28, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I think a referendum would work, because the language is/was already being called "Romanian" pretty much everywhere. If you learn in as "Romanian" in school, there's no objective reason to call it "Moldovan" other than for political reasons, for which the vast majority of the population doesn't care. As for economic ramifications - there aren't any for the same reason - even during PCRM rule "Moldovan" was only lazily enforced for some governmental institutions and I'm not aware of any penalties against those who refused to comply. Commercial entities had that "Tastaţii 1 pentru limba română" from day one. --illythr (talk) 13:03, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

it's funny to see Illythr edits. However, I think he understands there is no train back to Soviet Union.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.106.50.9 (talk) 10:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

So uh, did you ever finish that doctor's thesis of yours? --illythr (talk) 13:03, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

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