Ale83
Herciana
editYour move of the name of Hercianas article has been reverted as well as your edits on the national final page and the ESC 2014 article. May I suggest using the talk page to reason and try to reach a consensus before doing similar edits again. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 22:20, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- And what would I have done? I have first searched sources, then published them on the talk page and only finally I have moved the pages. May I suggest you to read other people's posts before accusing someone without any reason? --ale83_webmaster (talk) 22:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- May I suggest that you AGF and take a step back to breath. I have not accused you of anything. Accusing is not the same as telling someone not to do a move of an article name that is not in the articles best interest right now. May I suggest once again that you take a look at the article name of Hercianas articles on different languages and you will see that they match. Plus the fact that she competed in Festivali Kenges as her full name is telling. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 23:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- OK, you are right and she herself doesn't know which is her name. Are you happier so? --ale83_webmaster (talk) 23:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- May I suggest that you AGF and take a step back to breath. I have not accused you of anything. Accusing is not the same as telling someone not to do a move of an article name that is not in the articles best interest right now. May I suggest once again that you take a look at the article name of Hercianas articles on different languages and you will see that they match. Plus the fact that she competed in Festivali Kenges as her full name is telling. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 23:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
January 2014
edit
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would ask that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors, which you did not on Talk:Herciana Matmuja. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Wes Mᴥuse 14:46, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the welcome, although I don't think it was necessary, since I'm not a novice user on Wikipedia. Anyway, I think you're completely wrong, because I've always been in good faith, unlike BabbaQ, who accused me of the most absurd things. I'm responding into the talk page of the article, but wait a bit, because I'm not a native English speaker and I have several things to say. Thank you. --ale83_webmaster (talk) 15:19, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- In the meanwhile, you can read (if you haven't done it before) the comment I wrote yesterday here to demonstrate you that I'm absolutely in good faith and I'd like to resolve the issue quietly in the interest only of the Wikipedia community. Thanks again. --ale83_webmaster (talk) 15:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- Bear in mind that we are dealing with written conversations that hold no emotional tone or facial expressions to validate what was actually meant. So even though you may have felt you acted in good faith, another person may not see it in such way. Which is why it is always best to provide further explanation into our comments to avoid any such confusion. If you are not a native English speaker, then perhaps it would have been wise to make this point known in the conversation at Talk:Herciana Matmuja, to avoid confusion. In your comments on that talk page though, you stipulated that you had contacted the singer personally, and wished to use that conversation as evidence on how the singer wished to be known by. Unfortunately we cannot do that, as it violates original research. What we need to do in this case is use actual sources which are reliable and have not been obtained by ourselves by means of personally asking a singer/performer questions to clarify a specific area. I explained on the talk page the action that we as editors should be taking in regards to the naming of the singer, and how we should also show any spelling variations if they can be verified with sources. The original source shown her name spelt as "Herciana", which is the version we should be using, especially as this spelling variant she was credited by. By mentioning in the article lead that she is also known as "Hersi" and "Hersjana" is the correct way of dealing with cases like this. Wes Mᴥuse 17:14, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- First of all, I thank you for your message. I think that if BabbaQ had written a message like this before, there would never have been all these misunderstandings. But yesterday he has accused me (on your talk page) of very serious things that I never did, so I have to answer to clarify my position, because it was becoming almost a lawsuit against me. Sorry if I haven't done it before, but I had headache and I had to stop writing my comment (the fact I'm not a native English speaker I don't think is a problem, since in my opinion I write a quite good English, but I only need more time to try writing more correctly, just to avoid misunderstandings). Thanks again and give me some minutes to write my comment on the article's talk page. Bye! :-) --ale83_webmaster (talk) 18:09, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- Just for the record. I tried to explain to you several times about English Wikipedia needing sources that are reliable, with you continuing wanting to change the name to Hersi or Hersiana no matter what. I also explained to you several times that Hersi and Hersiana was mentioned in the articles lede. If you decide not to want to listen to that or wanting a calm discussion it is not my problem. But good that you listen to Wesley and that you understand. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 23:00, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- Just for the record and to clarify definitively the issue, without considering that I haven't showed as reliable sources only my conversation with the singer, you never wrote a comment like the Wesley one, otherwise I would have simply found some other sources to prove that her birth name is Hersjana, as I did in the last night comment. Instead you simply said that the only one reliable source was the eurovision.tv article (so, if in that article it was written that her name was John or Michael, would you have used this one? 😤) and no matter what said all the others, so I was essentially obliged to ask (but no to force) to the editor of the article to correct the mistake, trying so to let you reason about what you was saying. That's all, then I have already answered extensively about everything else in the article's talk page. Best regards and peace. 😉 --ale83_webmaster (talk) 10:47, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- I just find it weird that you still seem to not understand the concept and guidelines of name changing articles after three different users tried to explain it. Myself, Wesley and Jjj1238. It is not that we want to be "mean or not agree with you just for the sake of it" it is as Wesley states that we have to use original research and original sourcing etc. You can see it like this, when May comes around and if Herciana then wants to have her name as Hersi at the Copenhagen stage then you will be able to say "I told you so". But for now we can not (in my and others opinions) change the name. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 16:31, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- I have to say that I am baffled that you still seem to think that I have some sort of power over Wikipedia. All I can tell you is that other users trust my word on Eurovision topic articles. And that comes from being on this Wikipedia since 2010 and working hard to get to this point when my word is taken as a good recommendation per several occasions when I have been correct over the years. Also it was accusations but they were made in concern to the fact that I was genuinely worried about these matters. I have noticed a pattern of me responding on point while you in almost all messages to me either accuses me of something, it is comments like this one but if you think that this voice should be called Herciana and you don't have any concrete source to support your thesis, you're free to do it, but you well know that it's completely wrong. And it's also very ridicoulous that you say that,. And Talking to the wall is a waste of time... Bye!, OK, you are right and she herself doesn't know which is her name. Are you happier so?. And then your overall unwillingness to understand even basic guidelines and even after four separate users tried to explain it you still are POV-pushing and seems to not understand why we can not change the name at this time. This is a summary which I hope will make you change your editing style while being in a discussion in the future. Basically no one is acting in bad faith and no one is after you or wanting to not comply with your demands to be mean or in bad faith. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 23:07, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, but don't cut my phrases, deleting the most important part. "but if you think that this voice should be called Herciana and you don't have any concrete source to support your thesis, you're free to do it, but you well know that it's completely wrong. And it's also very ridicoulous that you say that, even if her Eurovision stage name will be corrected in future, you can think to discuss only IF to change it here, but also in that case you have already decided that it will not be changed, because for you her stage name is Herciana."
- Anyway now I'm not asking anymore to edit the article, because I have understood that I can't obtain nothing at the moment. The only thing I'd like to say is that I think we probably both made some errors, I don't like some your behaviors and you don't like some my behaviors. I think that now it's better that we take a breath and stop all these discussions for a while, then, when we'll stay more quiet, we will also be able to discuss quietly and probably we could also find an agreement. Regards, ale83_webmaster (talk) 23:58, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- I have to say that I am baffled that you still seem to think that I have some sort of power over Wikipedia. All I can tell you is that other users trust my word on Eurovision topic articles. And that comes from being on this Wikipedia since 2010 and working hard to get to this point when my word is taken as a good recommendation per several occasions when I have been correct over the years. Also it was accusations but they were made in concern to the fact that I was genuinely worried about these matters. I have noticed a pattern of me responding on point while you in almost all messages to me either accuses me of something, it is comments like this one but if you think that this voice should be called Herciana and you don't have any concrete source to support your thesis, you're free to do it, but you well know that it's completely wrong. And it's also very ridicoulous that you say that,. And Talking to the wall is a waste of time... Bye!, OK, you are right and she herself doesn't know which is her name. Are you happier so?. And then your overall unwillingness to understand even basic guidelines and even after four separate users tried to explain it you still are POV-pushing and seems to not understand why we can not change the name at this time. This is a summary which I hope will make you change your editing style while being in a discussion in the future. Basically no one is acting in bad faith and no one is after you or wanting to not comply with your demands to be mean or in bad faith. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 23:07, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- I just find it weird that you still seem to not understand the concept and guidelines of name changing articles after three different users tried to explain it. Myself, Wesley and Jjj1238. It is not that we want to be "mean or not agree with you just for the sake of it" it is as Wesley states that we have to use original research and original sourcing etc. You can see it like this, when May comes around and if Herciana then wants to have her name as Hersi at the Copenhagen stage then you will be able to say "I told you so". But for now we can not (in my and others opinions) change the name. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 16:31, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Just for the record and to clarify definitively the issue, without considering that I haven't showed as reliable sources only my conversation with the singer, you never wrote a comment like the Wesley one, otherwise I would have simply found some other sources to prove that her birth name is Hersjana, as I did in the last night comment. Instead you simply said that the only one reliable source was the eurovision.tv article (so, if in that article it was written that her name was John or Michael, would you have used this one? 😤) and no matter what said all the others, so I was essentially obliged to ask (but no to force) to the editor of the article to correct the mistake, trying so to let you reason about what you was saying. That's all, then I have already answered extensively about everything else in the article's talk page. Best regards and peace. 😉 --ale83_webmaster (talk) 10:47, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Just for the record. I tried to explain to you several times about English Wikipedia needing sources that are reliable, with you continuing wanting to change the name to Hersi or Hersiana no matter what. I also explained to you several times that Hersi and Hersiana was mentioned in the articles lede. If you decide not to want to listen to that or wanting a calm discussion it is not my problem. But good that you listen to Wesley and that you understand. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 23:00, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- First of all, I thank you for your message. I think that if BabbaQ had written a message like this before, there would never have been all these misunderstandings. But yesterday he has accused me (on your talk page) of very serious things that I never did, so I have to answer to clarify my position, because it was becoming almost a lawsuit against me. Sorry if I haven't done it before, but I had headache and I had to stop writing my comment (the fact I'm not a native English speaker I don't think is a problem, since in my opinion I write a quite good English, but I only need more time to try writing more correctly, just to avoid misunderstandings). Thanks again and give me some minutes to write my comment on the article's talk page. Bye! :-) --ale83_webmaster (talk) 18:09, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- Bear in mind that we are dealing with written conversations that hold no emotional tone or facial expressions to validate what was actually meant. So even though you may have felt you acted in good faith, another person may not see it in such way. Which is why it is always best to provide further explanation into our comments to avoid any such confusion. If you are not a native English speaker, then perhaps it would have been wise to make this point known in the conversation at Talk:Herciana Matmuja, to avoid confusion. In your comments on that talk page though, you stipulated that you had contacted the singer personally, and wished to use that conversation as evidence on how the singer wished to be known by. Unfortunately we cannot do that, as it violates original research. What we need to do in this case is use actual sources which are reliable and have not been obtained by ourselves by means of personally asking a singer/performer questions to clarify a specific area. I explained on the talk page the action that we as editors should be taking in regards to the naming of the singer, and how we should also show any spelling variations if they can be verified with sources. The original source shown her name spelt as "Herciana", which is the version we should be using, especially as this spelling variant she was credited by. By mentioning in the article lead that she is also known as "Hersi" and "Hersjana" is the correct way of dealing with cases like this. Wes Mᴥuse 17:14, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- In the meanwhile, you can read (if you haven't done it before) the comment I wrote yesterday here to demonstrate you that I'm absolutely in good faith and I'd like to resolve the issue quietly in the interest only of the Wikipedia community. Thanks again. --ale83_webmaster (talk) 15:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Will the pair of you cease this arguing immediately. It is becoming more disruptive than productive. We are here to collaborate together, peacefully. Ale83, what you need to remember here is that we are dealing with an article concerning a living person. With these type of article, we must follow via strict guidelines, in order to avoid the living person filing any lawsuits against Wikipedia and potentially any editors involved in editing the article. Advice that BabbaQ, AxG, Jjj1238, Mr Gerbear, and myself all gave to you was for your best interest to protect you from wandering into territory that may cause your user account from being blocked.
When BabbaQ made references to POV-pushing, it was clear (to me anyway) that he meant POV-pushing as in every time a user would provide an explanation, that you would appear to dismiss what other's were saying in order to prove that your point of view is correct without seeing the whole picture from every point of view. With biographies of living persons we need to make sure that we follow the 3 core policies, which are...
- Neutral point of view - we cover every aspect of a person, including name variations.
- Verifiability - that everything we write about a person can be verified with reliable sources.
- No original research - everything we write does not contain material that we have obtained by self-publications.
When you contacted Hersiana to verify the correct spelling of her name, this action became original research, which violates one of the 3 core policies that I mentioned above. When you emailed the editor at Eurovision.tv, it was based on your original research, and thus meant that we could no longer use that particular source because of your original research actions, and also it meant that the source itself became a conflict of interest, purely because you had contacted the editor - and the conflict is that you (as an editor of Wikipedia) had contacted the source's editor - thus conflict had occurred.
When we come to article titles, again 3 core policies have to be followed, and they are the same policies that I mentioned above. What needs to be done in this case is use the first source (from Albanian TV) to show the article's title as being Herciana. If the broadcaster made a mistake, then they would have announced this by now - as they have not, then we are to assume the broadcaster is correct (even if we disagree and know differently). The way we deal with this disagreement, is by noting in the article that different spellings of the singer's name have also been used, and provide sources to verify this information. Once the Eurovision Contest has begun, and we get to know exactly how her name is spelt, then we can rename the article accordingly. But only then should we do this, not before.
Now I strongly advise both yourself and BabbaQ to drop this whole debate, if necessary avoid interacting with each other from this moment onwards. And most importantly, do not be posting negatively worded remarks about each other on a variety of other talk pages. And remember that an editor has the right to leave a discussion when they so choose, and they also have the right to return to a discussion if they wish. We cannot make remarks judging them for deciding to leave and then return with yet another "final comment". There is no such thing as a final comment unless you both back off and allow this debate to quieten down. Time to move forward, peacefully and friendly. Wes Mᴥuse 03:09, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- I already understood all what you are saying, I'm not so stupid. 😄
- Anyway I thank you again for your message and I promise to not debate nor to argue anymore with BabbaQ. 😉
- Best regards, ale83_webmaster (talk) 15:24, 5 January 2014 (UTC)