72.80.190.102

Your recent edits

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I had to change many of the edits you made. You went a bit too far with adding the shorter-than-normal peak hour routes for those lines. This specifically applies to trains that start at a different terminal from their usual ones like the Q to 57th Street-7th Avenue, 7 to 111th Street, and 4 to Fordham Road. Trains being taken out of service after a run is very common and this is what happens with these scheduled trains. They are stored at yards during midday hours after completing a morning rush hour trip. They travel to the nearest station just before the evening rush to provide extra service to the outer boroughs. I removed this kind of information being that they have no significant impact on service. Those at the stations the trains do not serve will never see them at all, unlike those that terminate at a shorter-than-usual station, which would require those on board to get off and wait for the next one to complete their travel. You need to know that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a service guide or timetable. People use maps and schedules, not Wikipedia, for travel information. We only include what the regular service for each train is and for the 7, all trains generally go to Main Street-Flushing at all times; for the 4, all trains generally go to Woodlawn at all times; for the Q, all trains generally go to Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard on weekdays. Reply back if you need to be clear on what I mean. The Legendary Ranger (talk) 00:18, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Good evening, I am the same user as 72.80.208.20 with whom you had a discussion with several weeks ago concerning the 1 train and F train peak hour shortening edits. You suggested that if I added such information that I should do so for all the lines which have such peak hour shortenings (I was just getting started), and you specifically mentioned examples including the 7 train at 111th street, among others. Now you are arguing against making edits for some of the same lines, specifically including the very same 7 train. This is inconsistent. You obviously have a strong opinion about this, but I do not understand where you are drawing the line between including the peak hour shortening or not including it in the articles. Also, I do not believe that any one wikiuser alone may decide where to draw that line. In any case, you correctly state that the 4,7, and Q lines involve trains being run directly from or to storage yards, but this is also true of other lines such as the J (at Broadway Junction directly from the East New York Yard) and the 1 train (the 137th station from the 137th station yard). Therefore, I am not sure what distinction you are making here. Please do feel free to respond in a constructive manner. Thanks.

On a side note, the J train example involves trains truncated both ways, with some trains running solely between Broadway Junction and Jamaica Center and other trains running solely between Broadway Junction and Broad Street. I believe this would make Broadway Junction both a northern and southern terminal for those trains (please let me know if I am wrong). Thanks. Good day. 72.80.190.102 (talk) 02:12, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I made those suggestions about those short-turn rush hour trains before I spoke with administration. When I looked through the timetables, I realized I was not as right as I thought I was. These short-turn yard lay-ups may be a bit too insignificant to include in these articles, not too mention they will clutter them with too much detail. The way you included these short-turn terminal information makes it like those timetables are 100% accurate and they are not. Just because the timetable says that a scheduled train will terminate a shorter-than-normal terminal does not mean it will happen every day. Those in charge of Wikipedia:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation seem to be very strict in their policies, relying solely on what the service guide, found here, says for the New York City Subway articles. This service guide was included on subway maps before June 2010. Any other type of information may be deemed inappropriate for the articles.

I left the J/Z article intact because those northbound trains scheduled to terminate at Broadway Junction are Z trains that have just completed their morning rush hour skip-stop service. After a Z train finishes its skip-stop run in the southbound direction, it makes all stops in the northbound direction with a Z designation, not J, to Broadway Junction, where it is stored at East New York Yard until the evening rush. At that point, those trains, designated as Z again, start at Broadway Junction and make all stops to Manhattan before returning in the northbound direction to start skip-stop service to Queens. This is more notable because it applies to all six scheduled Z trains every day. I left the F train article intact because like you said, nearly half of all rush-hour trains terminate at Kings Highway in both directions and if you have been to that station, there are signs saying that rush-hour service to Queens is available on the center track. There are also some stations along the F where the signs in the southbound direction says "To Coney Island or Kings Highway." I did not change the 1 train article because after looking at the timetable, the shorter-than-normal terminals is more prevalent than othe rlines since Van Cortlandt Park - 242nd Street cannot handle the frequency of the 1 during rush hours, but note that trains do not just terminate at 137th Street - City College. They also terminate at Dyckman Street and 238th Street, so I really do not know what you want to include there. I left the 4 train to Burnside Avenue intact because the timetable says those trains scheduled to terminate there run express on the IRT Jerome Avenue Line, so this would be more noticeable to riders. I know it sounds confusing, but this is how Wikipedia works. If you really want to include every single short-turn terminals on the articles, please speak with administration first. I may look like a troll, but I am just following the rules. There is a good chance that all the information will get removed. The Legendary Ranger (talk) 13:33, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

The service guide alone is not accurate for description of NYC subway service. Where does it state that such is the only source to be used? Furthermore, where in wikipedia rules does it state that a person may EVER indicate that one source is the only source which can be used? Sounds terribly unencyclopedic to me. 157.252.166.124 (talk) 15:11, 22 May 2011 (UTC)(98.14 on vacation)

For The Legendary Ranger: Good afternoon. Concerning the 238th Street terminal on the 1 train, I left it out due to the controversy that was already occurring with including the 137th Street-City College terminal, which is much more important due to the far greater number of stations affected (1 versus about 10). There are no 1 trains that terminate at Dyckman Street.

But more importantly, wikipedia does use the MTA service guide for its articles on the NYC subway, shown especially on this page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_New_York_City_Public_Transportation/New_York_City_Subway/Services_and_lines. I thank you for pointing that out. However, I have searched the history of a number of wikiarticles on the NYC subway and I cannot find any statement or even talk that suggests that the MTA service guide is the sole or the major source for wikiarticles on NYC subway lines. Instead, the service guide is used as a outline/framework and as a template (such as for naming stations and lines). It is not used for details or writing complete articles (for which many other sources are used). If I have not looked in the right place, please inform me. Also, you state that you contacted the wikipedia administration, but there is no evidence of that on your talk page, contributions list, or any regular wikipage that you have recently edited. Therefore, it must have been a private communication - which I have no way of knowing anything about or verifying. In any case, I find it hard to believe that wikipedia would choose to use only one source on this topic because wikipedia uses multiple verified, mainstream sources on many other topics. Indeed, an encyclopedia is always a compilation of multiple sources. Furthermore, these peak hour changes we are discussing are sourced from the official MTA timetables - the very same MTA that publishes the MTA service guide. Therefore, I do not see why these MTA timetables would be any less of a source. This is especially true because the MTA has never intended the service guide to be used alone - it is used with the map or timetables. As you stated, it even used to included as part of the map until very recently. Again, if you can show that the service guide is the exclusive or preferred source, please speak up. Thank you very much. Good day.

72.80.190.102 (talk) 17:10, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject New York City Public Transportation has been inactive lately for reasons I do not know, which is why so many anonymous edits have gone undetected. I know you are being a very contributive editor, but I am just concerned that your edits may be cluttering the articles with a lot of insignificant information. Those peak hour changes do not apply for every scheduled train and only affect a small number of riders. If a train starts at a different station than normal, it just provides extra service for those it is going to. Riders do not care where the train's starting point was. They just want to get to where they want to go. If a train ends at a shorter-than-usual terminal, those riders on board simply get off and wait for the next train to continue to their destination (this might sound more notable since it affects their commute more). This to me is like what happens with the New York City Subway rolling stock articles. We use two sources for the car assignments, the Kris Datta Sheet, and the JoeKorner sheet. We go by what the JoeKorner datasheet says, however, because those are the official line-by-line assignments from New York City Transit even though the Datta Sheet seems to be more accurate due to the looseless of car assignments. The Datta Sheet is used as a secondary source. In short, I believe that due to the looseless of train schedules, it is not possible to say that those scheduled trains will always operate according to the timetable. Neither the service guide nor the schedules are entirely accurate. I advise you start a discussion on WP:NYCPT to see if it is okay for you to include all those peak service changes and if the other members approve it, go right ahead and I will not object to anything. Until then, neither I nor you should edit those articles. I am not saying you are wrong with anything, but disagreements have been a serious problem on this site lately. The Legendary Ranger (talk) 22:44, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

For the Legendary Ranger: I am the same user as 72.80.190.102 from about a week ago. Sorry for the delay. As for posting on the Wikiproject, that sounds like a good idea. I have done just that. Please refrain from making edits on this topic until we get feedback from others. Please have a good day. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.80.193.129 (talk) 19:40, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

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