173.59.16.114

March 2020

Please do not add or change content, as you did at Berberine, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. PMID 30402951 is a preliminary study and was published in a non-clinical journal. A WP:MEDREV review is needed. Medline is the best source at present. Please do not edit war, WP:WAR. Zefr (talk) 19:37, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

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Hi Zefr:

The citation was indeed from Medline - did you check the link? The automated "cite" button was not functioning when I posted my edit, so the format may have been incorrect. Some of the citations located at the end of Wiki's Berberine article post "doi" or white paper releases rather than published journal. My cited Medline source also has a "doi" white paper release number. Should I use that instead of the peer reviewed journal, which is a verified international medical journal according to JournalGuide: https://www.journalguide.com/journals/phytotherapy-research-ptr ? As an alternative, perhaps I could revise my edit to say that the data is preliminary? Please advise to the best course of action. Thanks!

You seem to be confusing "MedlinePlus" - this source - with the journal, Phytotherapy Research, in which the article was published. This journal is not where rigorous clinical research appears (it publishes articles on herbalism which is not high-quality clinical research). The article describes early-stage, inconclusive research, and is not usable. Read through WP:MEDSCI and WP:MEDREV for the types of articles and sources expected for the encyclopedia. This is a citation tool, Citer which you can use to fill out source details. Good luck. --Zefr (talk) 20:52, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

This is the Wikipedia description of the journal in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytotherapy_Research "Phytotherapy Research is a monthly peer-reviewed scientific journal publishing original research papers, short communications, reviews, and letters on medicinal plant research. Key areas of interest are pharmacology, toxicology, and the clinical applications of herbs and natural products in medicine, from case histories to full clinical trials, including studies of herb-drug interactions and other aspects of the safety of herbal medicines. Papers concerned with the effects of common food ingredients and standardised plant extracts, including commercial products, are particularly relevant, as are mechanistic studies on isolated natural products.[1]...According to the Journal Citation Reports, the journal has a 2016 impact factor of 3.092, ranking it 19th out of 60 journals in the category "Chemistry, medicinal"[3] and 81st out of 257 journals in the category "Pharmacology & Pharmacy".[4]"

Zefr, I will try reposting my edit to the Berberine page, not in an editorial battle, but in an effort to compromise with your suggestion of tagging the clinical trial with the word "preliminary." Thanks for your help.

Zefr, Just letting you know that I have followed the Pubchem citations on toxicity of Berberine, and noted that only three references were used, all from the 1970s. So much has been published on Berberine in the intervening half century, including in toxicology journals! Time to bring this article into the 21st Century perhaps?

Your recent editing history at Berberine shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Zefr (talk) 15:51, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

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Hi Zefr, My most recent edit to the Berberine article went in an entirely different direction, that of a recently published overview of the toxicology of Berberis in a toxicology journal. That edit did not persist in following the Chinese study, the second posting of which simply followed your own suggestion that it be labeled as being preliminary. No edit war intended. Would be happy to go to arbitration? Before doing so, perhaps you might state a reason for rescinding my latest edit, as none was stated. Thanks very kindly.

"Preliminary research" means primary, unconfirmed, preclinical findings which are not encyclopedic. Both sources you used fall into this low quality of evidence. See WP:MEDMOS under Trivia. --Zefr (talk) 05:21, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Zefr, Wouldn't a toxicological summary in a journal, similar to that of a PubChem article (but far more up to date than PubChem's citations from the 1970s), fall altogether under a different heading than "low quality of evidence," being a summary of where the research currently stands rather than a clinical trial? Doesn't this equate with more highly valued meta reviews? I am not attempting to prove one way or the other that Berberine is useful or safe to use, but to present more up to date information than the present Berberine article which seems more or less a stub with its paucity of hard data. In fact, the article strikes me as being rather sequestered or divorced from the rich body of data that is presently being amassed on the subject. One receives so much more of a bibliography and details on Berberine by going to a presumably "trendy" source such as "WebMD." Anyway, thanks so much, whether we agree or not, for taking the valuable time to discuss this.

It seems you are not thinking of Wikipedia as a resource of established facts supported by high-quality reviews, as opposed to a research article or graduate degree thesis. See WP:NOTPAPERS #6-7. Such early-stage, unconfirmed berberine research as you're proposing also fails WP:WEIGHT until there is enough published work on given topics like toxicology that a reputable review can be written, WP:MEDREV. --Zefr (talk) 05:38, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Pharmacological studies on berberine (March 15)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by RetroCraft314 was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Pharmacological studies on berberine and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
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• If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

<RetroCraft314 /> 04:26, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Hello, 173.59.16.114! Having an article declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! <RetroCraft314 /> 04:26, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Reply to your Articles for Creation Help Desk question

Hello, 173.59.16.114! I'm NotTheFakeJTP. I have replied to your question about a submission at the WikiProject Articles for Creation Help Desk. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:04, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

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Your draft article, Draft:Pharmacological studies on berberine

Hello, 173.59.16.114. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Pharmacological studies on berberine".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. If you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:12, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

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