Князівна

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Mellk (talk) 08:25, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

See WP:KIEV. Mellk (talk) 08:25, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The Namers of Things

i see that your renaming has been repeatedly reverted. our dear Mellk (thanks for your WP efforts overall Mellk)) seems to be acting as an enforcer of a 3-year-old naming convention consensus. dear Mellk undid an edit of mine too and left a nice little note saying such edits <may lead to a block> 😂. with time and in light of more recent events we'll see in which direction the consensus moves). ~ Johnfreez (talk) 09:16, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

It is also not the title of the article. If you want to move the article, you have WP:RM. But good luck with this. Mellk (talk) 09:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

very good point and thanks for the well wishes) ~ Johnfreez (talk) 09:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your support ❤ It's crazy, because the name Kyiv not only corresponds to the logic of naming modern capitals in the language of the state in which they are located, but also literally to the pronunciation of this city in the eleventh century 31.129.235.157 (talk) 09:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

thank you too) ooo <the pronunciation of the city in the eleventh century>. please tell me more because this would be good evidence for a debate about the naming of things that will no doubt continue. also my suspicion is that a more general re-evaluation of the contribution and meaning of russian literature is underway... ~ Johnfreez (talk) 09:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure. For example, here is a quotation from Hillary's most known work "Азъ милостію человЂколюбивааго бога мнихъ и прозвитеръ Иларионъ изволеніемь его от богочестивыихъ епископъ священъ быхъ и настолованъ въ велицЂмь и богохранимЂмь градЂ КыевЂ, яко быти ми въ немь митрополиту, пастуху же и учителю." (I, the monk and presbyter Hilarion, by the grace of the loving God, was consecrated by His pious bishops and installed on the throne in the great and God-protected city of Kyiv to be a metropolitan, that is, a shepherd and teacher.)

The name of Ukrainian capital has been spelled as "Кыевъ", which is pronounced as "Kyev", therefore more close to Ukrainian pronunciation. Of course there vere no such a letter as ї in that time, but it was definitely и (y; [ı], near-close near-front unrounded vowel), not і (i; [i], close front unrounded vowel). It is probably hard to understand for English speakers but the difference is clear, f. e. in such words as "sing", "a bit" - [ı] and "chic", "meet", "conseive" [i]. 31.129.235.157 (talk) 09:54, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

it *is* hard for speakers of merely english to understand but if i'm understanding you correctly:

- и in Kyiv i.e. [ı] as in yeast

- not i in Kiev i.e. [i] as in eat

am i beginning to get it?

and what about the second vowel?

~ Johnfreez (talk) 11:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. About the second vowel, it's the sound /ji/ (f. e. naïve ([nɑːˈiːv] or [naɪˈiːv]). But the letter ї for its transmission was invented only in XIX century. Therefore, in the Middle Ages, this sound was transmitted through "e", "is", "i", etc. 31.129.235.157 (talk) 11:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

are you saying

- the ѣ Кыѣвъ, Киѣвъ, and Кіѣвъ

- the е in Кіевъ

- and then the ї in Київ

all symbolize i, the close front unrounded vowel, as <red choral bead> and <ukraine is and will forever remain free> and naïve (this word has two distinct pronunciations)

not ɛ, the open-mid front unrounded vowel as in bed and instead?

(Caption from ==Name== section of Kyiv: A fragment of the New Universal Atlas by John Cary, London, 1808. The city was situated on the borderline between the former Polish (left) and Russian (right) zones of influence, with the name being presented as Kiev.)

do you have an opinion on how the cartographer intended the map name Kiev to be pronounced at the time of it's publishing at the beginning of the 19th century?

~ Johnfreez (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

> vandalism - This user immediately corrects my edits to the previous incorrect ones, thus negating all the work without any discussion. Князівна (talk) 08:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

should we formally report our dear Mellk as a vandal?) ~ Johnfreez (talk) 09:35, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I have tried but received a message that everything is ok with him😅

Maybe if many people try it would be more productive. 31.129.235.157 (talk) 09:58, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

You are logged out. Please be aware of WP:LOUTSOCK. Mellk (talk) 10:02, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

see how useful they are at citing the rules? 😂 ~ Johnfreez (talk) 10:05, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Mellk's done plenty of good work i'm sure so i don't know if they deserve to be reported. i think working toward a stronger argument to <move the needle> on the naming convention debate would be helpful) ~ Johnfreez (talk) 10:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Agree 31.129.235.157 (talk) 10:04, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no basis for making a report anyway. Mellk (talk) 10:31, 24 October 2023 (UTC)