User:Urashimataro/Uramse Pages/Archive04

New beginning

Hi. I replied to your questions.

I think the timelines would be useful, (maybe with a somewhat blander color, easier on the eye) with the exception of the Apple product lineup, which I think is not old enough and Japanese enough to appear in a National Treasures of Japan article ;-).

BTW, I think the article is good and very useful as it is, in itself and as a springboard to the various list articles. Would it be possible to somehow add links to the various NT lists in the intro? They are too important to be tucked away here and there at the bottom of such a long article. Make them more visible. Urashima Tarō (talk) 07:17, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

OK. I'll leave out the apples. Will have to think about how to deal with the archaeology treasures (which go back to -10,000 or so) in the timeline. Colors will be changed as well. I was quite happy yesterday to have generated some output with the scripting language. I'll link the lists in the intro. Unfortunately I cannot use itemized lists for style reasons, so they might not turn out to be as prominent as I wish. bamse (talk) 11:02, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I added a bit here and there, especially in the statistics section. Also expanded the intro. I decided not to list the categories (which are an artificial construct) in the intro but rather the actual types of objects. Unfortunately this means that the lists are not linked to in the intro. I am thinking of moving the "Categories of National Treasures" up, before the history section for this reason. Do you think that would be a good idea? What are you up to with Shinto topics? Let me know if I can be of any help there.bamse (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Move

I took another look at the article and I would say that moving the section would be a good idea. It would follow the general description of NTs, completing it before the history section.

As for myself, I am cleaning up the many loose ends left by the last month's flurry of activity in Shinto shrine, Shinto architecture and the other new article. The two articles are more similar than I would like, but I have no idea of how to differentiate them, at least for now. Any feedback, now or later, would be welcome, I will probably start with Important Cultural Properties of Japan next week, just to take a break. Can't do the same thing for too long. I am driven by curiosity. I will write the article while cleaning up. Where do you think I should start from? You have a great deal of knowledge. Perhaps from here? After reading this pamphlet, I thought I should perhaps write first the article Cultural Properties of Japan, which is the umbrella under which every other related article stands. What do you think? I started here

Another thing: I have prepared the Protection of Cultural Properties Logo which appears here. Do you think it's OK to upload it? If it's OK to upload the logo of Royal Dutch Shell, why not this one?

Urashima Tarō (talk) 03:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I moved the section up. Looks indeed better now, and the reader does not immediately get bored with the history section either.

Important Cultural Properties (ICP): You could start by compiling the lists of all ICP. :-o Don't worry, just joking. Starting with the Cultural Properties of Japan (CP) is a good idea. I would keep the history section in Cultural Properties of Japan very short and just mention in which year (with which law) the respective property (historic sites, monuments, ...) was recognised as CP. I edited a bit in User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu. Hope that it's ok. I think it is important to differentiate between "categories" of CP and "designation/registration/selection titles". I am not sure what the difference between "selection" and "designation" is (ICP are designated, but Important Cultural Landscapes are selected). Presently there are itemized lists of categories and designation titles, but the relation between them is not clear. Something like the diagram on page four of [1] would be good to have, either as graphics or in prose (maybe with sub-lists). Then the overview article could be expanded step by step (with statistics, etc) as articles on the various designation titles are created. What do you think about this plan? A while ago I was thinking of creating lists for some of the more manageable designations ("Special Places of Scenic Beauty", etc). Do you think that it is useful to have such lists, or are they too specialized and only worthwhile for ja-wikipedia?

As for references, apart from those in National Treasures of Japan; ja-wikipedia has articles to most/all of the laws mentioned in the history section of National Treasures of Japan. In these articles there are often links to official looking Japanese sites.

I guess it is ok to upload the tokyou. For use in dedicated articles such as Cultural Properties of Japan it should be no problem to upload it with a license like the Shell logo. Maybe it could even be uploaded with a more flexible license since it is a rather simple logo. bamse (talk) 09:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I started with the Special Places of Scenic Beauty here. There are only 35 in total. bamse (talk) 17:57, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Cultural Properties of Japan

Hi, Bamse. About your edits to my page, please feel free to edit as you see fit anything you see in my pages. I have never had a proposed change from you I didn't agree with, and I know your integrity. In case I don't agree with something you do, we can discuss it after the fact. As a matter of fact, I hope the level of integration of our work will increase with time.

Now, about Cultural Properties of Japan:
It seems to me that this page should be the only one to include the full history of the CP law. It is the starting point of all other CP related pages, and should contain little more than the basic definitions and the history of the law. Everything else would go in linked pages like National Treasures of Japan. Those pages, for example NT and ICPs, logically depend on it and need to have just a condensed version and a main template referring to CPoJ. I think therefore that you, who knows about this stuff better than anybody, should move the history section from National Treasures of Japan and publish the article. I can help you, but you clearly are the man who should do the job. The material is yours and you know it better.

All of a sudden I can't believe we have written articles on Japan all this time without articles about CP categories and classifications to link to. I myself have used the words NT and ICP often. I think we should have at very least a linkable stub for each category, so the page you started about landscapes is fine. We should try to find a way to easy let the community know the correct translations of words like 国宝 and 重要文化財, maybe via a template or a navbar. I had the problem before and discussed it with Fg2 and others on the WPJ talk page.

Urashima Tarō (talk) 06:22, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree about creating articles on classifications. For the highest level of designation (NT, Special Places of Scenic Beauty,Important Preservation Districts for Groups of Traditional Buildings,...) it might even be feasible to have lists of all the designated properties. How about having the following articles:

1. overview article Cultural Properties of Japan: including history of protection, and basic definitions of categories
2. categories Tangible Cultural Properties, Intangible Cultural Properties (Japan), Folk Cultural Properties, Monuments (Japan), Cultural Landscapes, Groups of Traditional Buildings, Conservation Techniques for Cultural Properties, Buried Cultural Properties: including the classifications for the less famous categories (Cultural Landscapes, Groups of Traditional Buildings, Conservation Techniques for Cultural Properties); including only a short overview and more specific links for the more famous categories (Tangible Cultural Properties, Intangible Cultural Properties, Folk Cultural Properties, Monuments); including "Registered..." for all categories
3. classifications for the more famous classifications (see above): National Treasures of Japan, Important Cultural Properties, Important Intangible Cultural Properties, Important Tangible Folk Cultural Properties, Important Intangible Folk Cultural Properties (Japan), Historic Sites (includes Special Historic Sites), Places of Scenic Beauty (includes Special Places of Scenic Beauty), Natural Monuments (includes Special Natural Monuments)
4. lists of the highest designation level (only for long lists that don't fit into the "classification" articles): Lists of National Treasures of Japan, List of Living National Treasures of Japan (performing arts), List of Living National Treasures of Japan (crafts),...

Quite a few redlinks. Do you think that these are too many/few articles and that classifications should be merged with categories or that classifications should be further divided into Places of Scenic Beauty and Special Places of Scenic Beauty for instance? Personally I prefer to start from the lists and do the classifications later, when I know what properties are included (That's what I did with NT). I will continue with User:Bamse/Places of Scenic Beauty and make it into the Places of Scenic Beauty article. Next I'd be most interested in "Natural Monuments" or "Historic Sites", but I'd happily share with you ;-). What are your favourite articles? ICP or are you going to work down from general (Cultural Properties of Japan) towards the classifications? In fact some of the Places of Scenic Beauty are also Natural Monuments or Historic Sites. So for the purpose of lists it would make sense to cover the three "Special..." classifications in one list (There are 35+61+75=171 "Special..." entries but since some are doubled the number of distinct entries is lower, maybe around 150).

A template or navbar (I never made one) that contains the above list ("1.-4.") would be a good idea in my opinion.

As for the history. I agree that Cultural Properties of Japan should have the full history. I can copy the history from National Treasures of Japan but there are the following issues:

• When writing the history I skipped all info that was not related to NT somehow. So it should probably be expanded for non-NT related stuff.
• National Treasures of Japan as a title are very old and I would not want to remove the early (pre 1950) history from that article. The post 1950 history which only indirectly relates to NT could probably be shortened/removed from National Treasures of Japan.
• At the moment I am not very interested in reading about history of preservation techniques. This might change in the future.

Will check what needs to stay in the post 1950 history of National Treasures of Japan and then copy/remove. It'll take a couple of days I guess. bamse (talk) 12:25, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Monday 21

Let's start dividing messages by day. The easiest way.

The truth is that I don't know where to start from. I am out of my depth, but willing to go. What do you think? Some article with clear references and where I can't do much damage.

About the pages, it's true, it's a lot of red links, but for the time being we need to create just good, solid starts which we can expand later. No one said each has to be a long article from the start. The important thing is to create a more or less complete background readers can use and over which we can work without rush.

But let's think it over: articles that are too specialized become orphans. Articles needs links coming in. Maybe we could put the most specialized stuff together in one place and separate it in case of need. Maybe we could use for that the Cultural Properties of Japan page. Urashima Tarō (talk) 13:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

You already made a good start with User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu. It would be useful to rearrange the categories and classifications (using sections or itemized lists) in a way similar to page four of the source you used. So to have a category and associated classifications together. In any case somehow it should be made clear which classifications belong to what categories. The pamphlet you used as source should be sufficient for this. For the various categories, there is some useful information in these English pamphlets (for instance "Cultural Landscapes" are covered by this pamphlet) or in these Japanese pamphlets. Below the heading "Administration of Cultural Affiars in Japan ―Fiscal 2009" on this site there is some more good info (for instance [2]) on various cultural properties. If you want to create a list of some CP, they are all in the database. I don't think you will do any damage. bamse (talk) 14:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Another useful source I just found is this site of the MEXT which has the designation criteria for various CP. Together with the database of CP it tells for instance that Mount Fuji is selected as a special place of scenic beauty for criterion 10: "山岳、丘陵、高原、平原、河川". bamse (talk) 19:25, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

All the 35 Special Places of Scenic Beauty are now in the list. I will add (already started) Special Historic Sites and Special Natural Monuments to the same list since some sites belong to more than one type. So the list will become rather lengthy, comparable to the painting NT list. It should probably get its own list-article. bamse (talk) 21:50, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I created a draft for "Monuments" on your userpage.bamse (talk) 23:09, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Categories

There are already Category:National Treasures of Japan, Category:Important Cultural Properties of Japan, Category:Special Natural monuments of Japan, Category:Natural monuments of Japan and Category:Living National Treasures of Japan. Are there more? Shall we create more? Shall we create something like Category:Designations for Cultural Properties of Japan which contains all the other categories? bamse (talk) 23:53, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Let's wait a bit

Protection of Cultural Properties Logo.png

Personally I need a bit of time to digest the situation and learn a bit. There's no rush. However, I think Category:Designations for Cultural Properties of Japan is obviously needed.

I worked a bit on Hayashi Eitetsu. See if what I did is what you intended. Today I can't work more, but I will tomorrow based on your recommendations.

I uploaded the logo. All other governmental logos were uploaded without any special permission. Urashima Tarō (talk) 01:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Take your time to digest. I promise not to spam this page like I did yesterday. :-) Pretty logo! Yes, it is basically what I intended (but feel free to object if it is not a good idea). I think we could do without the "Cultural Property Designations" section since the article is about CP and not about the designations. After all the designations are mentioned in the "Recognized categories of Cultural Properties" and I would not know what more to write about "Places of Scenic Beauty, Special Places of Scenic Beauty" than is already in the Monuments section.

So my idea was to have something like the Monuments section for all CP categories. Three paragraphs: type of items, designations, preservation. Chapter06 has basically all the info as far as I can see. Of course designations like National Treasures of Japan, Living National Treasures of Japan,... which have their own article will be linked to from the text. bamse (talk) 09:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

TUESDAY 22

Nothing to report. I will probably finish my part of the article tomorrow. Let me know what you think. There's plenty of material to paste in from the National Treasures of Japan which would fit in nicely. What you think? Urashima Tarō (talk) 05:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks very good, also with the pictures. We could put more recent figures than from April 1. For NT, there are December figures in the National Treasures of Japan article which I am sure are correct and will likely not change until spring next year. For ICP and other designations, such figures could be taken from the database, though I don't know when it was last updated. Or we just wait until April 1, 2010 or whenever they publish a new summary. The Living National Treasures of Japan article says that also groups are called "Living NT", not only individuals (Don't know what is correct.). I hope to paste the history soon. Not sure what other material you want to paste in from National Treasures of Japan. Feel free to copy, but I would not make individual sections on categories of CP too long.bamse (talk) 09:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I pasted the history section from National Treasures and will shorten the post 1950 history in National Treasures of Japan now. I can see three things that should be changed in the User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu history: (i) use other pictures than in the NT article for variety and (ii) emphasize (maybe in headers?) the introduction of the various categories. (iii) move some of the material from the history section to "System of protection of cultural properties" (for instance info on financial support, etc) bamse (talk)

Shall we try a DYK to increase the impact of the article? With which hook?bamse (talk) 10:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Wed 23

How about ...that the Japanese Law for the Conservation of Cultural Properties provides for the existence of Living National Treasures?

Sounds good.bamse (talk) 09:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Today was a holiday: Spent the day sleeping, and did nothing. Will go ahead tomorrow.BTW, did you not get my email, two days ago? Urashima Tarō (talk) 06:54, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I did, sorry for the delay.bamse (talk) 09:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Dec. 23

Sorry, couldn't work today either. Big problems with my OS after an update. Thanks for the message, though.

I was thinking that the best and only thing we can do to ensure that people use the correct names for cultural properties (designated ICP, NT, Historical Site, etc) is to have them added to the Manual of Style. The easiest way to have that done is to talk to Nihonjoe. Will you do it or should I?

BTW, how do you say registered CP in Japanese?

Urashima Tarō (talk) 04:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. As the initiator of this project I leave it to you to contact Nihonjoe. The database has all the Japanese names (in blue on the bottom right under "category"). For instance Registered Tangible CP is 登録有形文化財. Registered Monuments is 登録記念物. PS: I won't be very active today either. bamse (talk) 13:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Dec. 26

Hi! Starting to be a bit more active on wikipedia and adding monuments to User:Bamse/Places of Scenic Beauty. Would be good if you could have a glance over the translations of the criteria (first three sections before the table) in there. bamse (talk) 11:45, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I put together a very preliminary version for a cultural properties template here. Is it close to what you had in mind? Feel free to edit/modify it. I could do with another color for a change. bamse (talk) 16:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Dec 28

I think another color would be a GREAT idea (perhaps light green or orange).

Checked the list. Feel free to revert what you don't like. Just one thing. It seems to me that items in a bulleted or numbered list should start with a capital. Starting with a lower case letter, they look odd to me. Same thing for the Remarks column. Why is it all in the lower case? I haven't changed anything because I am not sure I am right. The page linked above uses capitals.

About the Shirahone onsen, I translated 噴湯丘 as stalagmite because I think this is what it is, just caused by a water geyser.The rest I translated literally. There's no translation in any dictionary, so we are on out own. Urashima Tarō (talk) 07:44, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the fixes. I'll convert to capitals. I made a green template which can be found here. To be used with {{Cultural Properties of Japan}} Feel free to modify it. Colors are taken from Spring bud but I am not good at picking tasteful colors. bamse (talk) 22:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Dec. 29

Went ahead with Cultural Properties of Japan. There's much to be done, but I am sure I will be through by the end of the vacations. One pending issue is that of redirects. For the time being most red links can be transformed in redirects pointing to sections of Cultural Properties of Japan, but some cannot. We will see what happens. Urashima Tarō (talk) 06:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

December 30

I think I am through. Another read tomorrow, then I publish it. Take a look when you can and let e know what you think.

The next stage will be creating first all the necessary redirects (Important Cultural Property of Japan, and so forth). The last linking article key words to the appropriate articles (something I foresee will be a mess, particularly for terms like Historical Site. Urashima Tarō (talk) 05:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

December 31

Quite busy these days. I'll try to make some time to have a look either today or next year (tomorrow). bamse (talk) 09:30, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

January 1

Sorry for the delay. Made some small changes. More general feedback to User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu follows:

• in the lead: "created in Japan". Some National Treasures are from China or Korea. Also, can "intangible properties" be "created"? I think the long lead sentence should be split in two, but I don't have a good idea how. Not sure if Natural Monuments like plants or animals are included in the definition.
  • Done the best I could. Should be OK now.
• in "Tangible Cultural Properties": "their exportation is forbidden" only applies to NT AFAIK.
  • Chapter 06 applies this to all CPoJ.

Of works of arts and crafts that have been designated National Treasures or Important Cultural Properties, approximately 60% are owned by either a shrine or a Buddhist temple. Prior approval is required to change the form of these designated cultural properties or perform any action that will affect their preservation. Their exportation from Japan is forbidden, except when judged necessary and approved as in the case of an overseas exhibition.

• I don't understand: "The government also contributes part of the expenses sustained by the holder of the Intangible Cultural Property during training of a successor or by a recognized group for public performances."
  • Changed the wording. Hope it's OK now.
• "Techniques for the production of materials... are not Cultural Properties,...". Why are they covered here?
  • They are shortly mentioned because, although they are not CP, they have a close association with them and are protected for the sake of the CP. I think we should mention them as the Agency of Cultural Affairs did.

That's it. I skipped the history section. If you changed something there, I'll have another look. I think the article looks very good and could be moved to article space after the lead section is made more clear. Do you have a favorite phrase for a WP:DYK hook? bamse (talk) 18:47, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Just created/moved List of Special Places of Scenic Beauty, Special Historic Sites and Special Natural Monuments. bamse (talk) 22:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Jan 2

Fixed the problems (I think) and replied to your questions (see above). Will publish the article and created the redirects.

About the hook, I would use the one I mentioned. Living National Treasures are good for hooks. Urashima Tarō (talk) 00:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, must have missed it before. The nomination is now here.

Published

The deed is done. I have created some redirects and a Important Cultural Properties of Japan stub. Take a good look at the navbar to see what I have done an if there are problems. There will be plenty of linking to do, now, hundreds of links, which goes to show how needed these articles were, I think. I started with ICPs, and it's probably better if I finish. I know what I have done. You would waste time.

Excellent. I wikilinked the registered properties in the template. Will put the CP-template on the respective list articles.

About the DYK, I will leave the honor to you. At least you get something out of writing more than half of the article.

Created Category:Special Places of Scenic Beauty and Category:Special Historic Sites (Category:Special Natural monuments of Japan was already present). Added articles to them. bamse (talk) 10:30, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Started with List of Important Cultural Landscapes (15 items). bamse (talk) 12:29, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Jan 3

Created Cultural Landscapes of Japan which is (so far) short enough to include both "Cultural Landscapes" and "Important Cultural Landscapes" and the "List of Important Cultural Landscapes". Also made redirects for these: "Important Cultural Landscapes" and "List of Important Cultural Landscapes". bamse (talk) 14:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Jan 4

Today I was about to write to Nihonjoe about the modifications to the MoS, when I thought it's better to wait until we sort out all loose ends. What you think?

I am still taking care of links, then I will proceed to stub all non-list red links. I think lists are better left to you, at least for now. I am not familiar with the code you use (or any other code, to be honest). Urashima Tarō (talk) 02:48, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

January 4

Finished the Important Cultural Property links, at long last. Tomorrow I will start the stubs. Moved Important Intangible Cultural Properties to Important Intangible Cultural Properties of Korea, expected an irate message from Caspian Blue and, sure enough, it duly arrived in a few minutes. But I was able to create Important Intangible Cultural Properties of Japan. Urashima Tarō (talk) 03:43, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

You naturally expected to receive an "angry message" from me, but never intended to discuss with me for the intended move and title change? That is very mature of you, Urashimataro. Since here seems to be "an open taskforce page" or "log" or whatever "social network page" to people engaged in Japanese properties and my name is mentioned without notification "again", I think me leaving a message will be justified.--Caspian blue 04:20, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

January 5

As for the MoS, actually I am not sure exactly what you want to have inserted there. The proper translation of Japanese terms like "national treasure", "cultural landscape"... or capitalization of these terms? I can take care of the lists, but due to lack of time it is not going to be soon I am afraid. List of Important Preservation Districts for Groups of Traditional Buildings seems to be the most reasonable (shortest) to do next, if I am not mistaken. bamse (talk) 13:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't miss to read the wikipedia main page on January 7, any time from 9am to 3pm Kamakura time ;-) bamse (talk) 14:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Jan. 7

Bamse, I created Tangible Cultural Properties of Japan and Intangible Cultural Properties of Japan. Tomorrow I will proceed with the other red links. I looked into creating an Intangible Cultural Properties of Japan category in Commons but I don't think it's feasible.

BTW, if there's a photo you want to fix (exposure, noise, or other problems, let me know. I can do that kind of thing. (Maybe you can too, I dunno.)

Another thing: do you use a Windows machine or a Mac? Urashima Tarō (talk) 06:24, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi! Good to have those articles. I noticed that in the template "Registered Tangible Cultural Properties" points to Cultural_Properties_of_Japan#Registered_Tangible_Cultural_Properties_.28buildings.2C_7407_items.2C_and_works_of_fine_arts_and_crafts.2C_9_items.29, while it should probably point to Tangible_Cultural_Properties_of_Japan#Registered_Tangible_Cultural_Properties. Also in the template, "Monuments" points to Monument which is rather broad in scope. The Japanese Monument definition also includes animals and habitats, which are not covered by the Monument article, so I think it would be better to have a dedicated Monuments of Japan article or alternatively mention animals in the existing Monument article. PS: I used to be a Linux guy, but am presently on a Windows machine. I've played around a bit with photo editing but am usually too lazy to do much with it. Thanks for the offer. bamse (talk) 09:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Jan. 9

Created the article Monuments of Japan almost exclusively with material from the corresponding list. I think the criteria should be in both articles, because they are indispensable in both. For the time being the separate articles are almost identical to the respective sections of Cultural Properties of japan, but hopefully that will change with time.

Fixed the redirect.

I asked what OS you use because I have a copy of Kojien for Mac 5.0 (the current one I use is 6.0) I can legally give you (I could put the .iso in my iDisk). Alas, you can't use it.

I use both Windows and Mac OS. I often install various Linux distros out of curiosity (I now have PCLinuxOS installed), but the fact I absolutely need Windows for work prevents me from using it regularly. Urashima Tarō (talk) 00:53, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Nice. Fixed a redirect in the template and started with User:Bamse/List of Important Preservation Districts for Groups of Traditional Buildings which will develop very slowly. In the template I'd remove the "of Japan" for the categories ("Tangible Cultural Properties of Japan"->"Tangible Cultural Properties", etc) since they are all below the same heading (Cultural Properties of Japan) which already has the "of Japan" in it. Don't feel strongly about it, so I leave it up to you to decide.