*ChanServ* [#wikipedia-en-unblock] Unblock conversation logs may be published
=== #wikipedia-en-unblock http://www.en.wikipedia.org
<privatemusings> anyone around?
* Norma is
<privatemusings> g'day!
* Jeane waves
* privatemusings waves back!
<privatemusings> have you got maybe 10 minutes (maybe more!) to take a look at a difficult situation - and maybe talk a bit about it?
<Jeane> that *is* what this channel's for
<privatemusings> it's about a pretty complicated block on a dutch chap named Guido....
<privatemusings> :-)
* Jeane is writing an email at present, but will listen shortly....
<privatemusings> thanks heaps :-) - Norma - could you lend a hand too maybe?
<Norma> Ah, sure
<Norma> what is is on wiki, email, what?
<privatemusings> I think enough is on wiki to move things forward...
<privatemusings> it's been discussed at AN/I and an arb case was rejected recently....
<Norma> oh
<privatemusings> it relates to legal threats on other wikis... so it's a very (very) hot potato.....
<Jeane> if they're threatening legal action against the foundation, they remain blocked until they are retracted
<privatemusings> I should link you to the arbs comments...
<privatemusings> they've reviewed this pretty clearly....
<Norma> While I do occasionally pop in and do arbitrary things
<Norma> this seems a bit suicidal
<privatemusings> heh.... well if you've got a few min.s I'd like to hear your views anyways...
<Jeane> privatemusings, if the arbcom has refused to lift a block, there isn't much we can do about it. Norma's right
<Jeane> we can help explain it, but not reverse it
<privatemusings> no - they haven't refused to lift a block!
<Norma> maybe you should just give us the links first
<Jeane> aye
<privatemusings> sure....
<privatemusings> it starts here....
<privatemusings> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Guido_den_Broeder
<privatemusings> ..this page will probably take at least 5 mins to review.... :-)
<privatemusings> just to clarify the arb thing... (link in a moment) - they seemed to indicate pretty clearly that a threat on another wiki doesn't impact on a decision to block on en.....
<Norma> for legal threats it would
<privatemusings> they seem to disagree...
<Jeane> aye. a legal threat is still a legal threat
<privatemusings> I'll let you intepret for yourself though.... :-)
<Jeane> ...
<Norma> legal threats are against the foundation, which enwiki is part of
<privatemusings> ah no ..sorry
<privatemusings> this is a legal issue with another user....
<privatemusings> not with the foundation.
<Norma> I see
<privatemusings> sorry...
<Norma> thats ok, it changes things a little, depending on what that issue is
* Norma reads
* Jeane will read in a moment
<privatemusings> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration&oldid=226131866#Guido_den_Broeder
<privatemusings> actually that's a pretty good place to start also.....
<privatemusings> the current situation is best reflected (I think) here;
<privatemusings> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Guido_den_Broeder#G.27day_Guido
<privatemusings> this is worth a look too;
<privatemusings> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Risker#fancy_reviewing_a_difficult_situation.3F
<privatemusings> and this one too;
<privatemusings> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lar#fancy_reviewing_a_difficult_situation.3F
* privatemusings realises he's dumping quite alot of work out there - thanks!
<privatemusings> I feel like I'm pretty well acquainted with the context now - and am happy to answer any questions you guys might have as best I can......
* Jeane starts reading
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<privatemusings> for me the key thing is actually quite basic.... if Guido has been blocked for making a legal threat.. and if he has also retracted it / committed to conform with policy... is there a basis for unblock...?
<Mortensen> PM
<privatemusings> you guys are probably aware that the chap Guido has legally threatened on nl wiki, Oscar, is an ex-board member, nl arbcom member, and all round very nice wiki person.....
<privatemusings> just for context....
<Mortensen> I'd say Arbcom would need to judge that
<privatemusings> they explicitly stated they don't need to?
<privatemusings> (at least that's my reading of it..)
<privatemusings> (getting link)
<privatemusings> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration&oldid=226131866#Guido_den_Broeder
<privatemusings> see arbs comments at base of that thread....
<privatemusings> "be unblocked as soon as any legal matters are resolved. Kirill"
<privatemusings> for example... etc. etc.
<privatemusings> "Re Privatemusings: no, a dispute occuring entirely on another Wikimedia project will, in most cases, not be of concern to the English Wikipedia" - thebainer...
<Mortensen> PM, you could ask Kirill at his talk page
<privatemusings> (I'll let you guys read and interpret it now!
<Mortensen> he's a good judge of such things in a non-arb context
<privatemusings> ah... I think he's a bit busy right now!
<privatemusings> anywhoo.. my reading of this recent discussion is that they don't see it as an arb matter......
<privatemusings> whadda you reckon?
<Jeane> my reading of it is that policy is clear
<Norma> it seems very convoluted, as far as actually redacting the legal threat
<Jeane> a legal threat, is, very clearly, a legal threat
<privatemusings> btw... I too felt that this was a clear case for arbcom.... so we agreed.... but they didn't!
<Jeane> PM, read what I said
<privatemusings> yup - got ya....
<Jeane> I did not say it was a clear case for arbcom
<Jeane> I said policy was clear
<privatemusings> (responding to Mortensen)
<Mortensen> PM, I doubt anyone will unblock
<Jeane> as we've already stated, we're not going to override arbcom. You can't ask Dad when Mom says no.
<Mortensen> certainly without an ANI discussion
<Norma> privatemusings: looking at it, I can't really tell what Guido's position is
<Norma> which means we can't really unblock
<Jeane> until it is very clear everything is settled, he stays blocked indefinitely
<privatemusings> Norma - I think I get ya... the issue is pretty clouded, and you can't discern whether or not there is a current legal threat?
<Norma> I think it is possible for him to be unblock if he simply posts a clear redaction of the threat, and indicates that it is settled
<Jeane> we can't determine if the legal threat is removed
<Norma> but looking at the talk page, he seems to be wildly changing directions at time
<Norma> s
<Norma> though that was before you arrived to help him
<privatemusings> what did you think of this;
<privatemusings> "I have no desire to make a legal threat on en:Wikipedia, nor to engage in any aspects of external disputes here. Guido den Broeder (talk) 23:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)"
<privatemusings> he's stuck to that very well, in my book (having previously been kinda going off a bit on his talk page...)
<privatemusings> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Guido_den_Broeder#G.27day_Guido
<privatemusings> ^ I think that's the best summing up of the status quo
<Mortensen> PM you could write up a request
<Mortensen> and put it at AN
<privatemusings> I thought I'd get some advice here first maybe....
<Norma> My problem is that "The legal action was only triggered by his response, sent to me by email." seems to indicate that he thinks because it was in response to the email, not on wiki it doesn't count
<privatemusings> see what you guys thought?
<privatemusings> Norma - is it your view that he needs to do more than state his wish to fully comply with the policy?
<privatemusings> sorry.. that reads wrong...
<privatemusings> do you think it's important he demonstrates that he's understood what was wrong a bit more in some way?
<Jeane> he needs to retract any threat made, or implied
<privatemusings> as oppose to committing to not make or engage in any threats from here on out?
<privatemusings> (which is what I read him as clearly doing...)
<Norma> I think he needs to clearly explain what, if any, his legal intentions are
<Jeane> which, if he wants to be unblocked, should be none
<Norma> not simply if /he considers/ what he said a legal threat
<privatemusings> I'm fairly certain that he has legal intentions relating to the nl issue...
<privatemusings> but I felt that it had been clarified that that was not relevant to the en situation......
<privatemusings> (it's a bit of a Catch-22 to ask him to state on en his intentions elsewhere therefore!)
<Jeane> not really. the situation overflowed to here
<Jeane> therefore, out policy applied
<Jeane> our*
<privatemusings> well this is where the bit about him committing to obey our policy from now on comes in....
<privatemusings> my feeling is that that should probably be sufficient?
<Jeane> read the policy, PM.
<privatemusings> (a committement to obey all guidelines and policies etc.)
<Jeane> NLT is very specific.
<Norma> In a legal threat situation, I am always inclined to block liberally, because it has the very real potential to cause all sorts of problems
<privatemusings> wise.
<Jeane> any sort of legal threat, stated, implied, or suspected, must lead to a block until it is fully and unconditionally retracted
<privatemusings> "I have no desire to make a legal threat on en:Wikipedia, nor to engage in any aspects of external disputes here. Guido den Broeder (talk) 23:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)"
<privatemusings> is that any good?
<Norma> it is best for everyone involved if there is a block whenever there is a legal problem that in some way involves wikipedia
<privatemusings> I think that's what Carcharoth was explaining to Guido.....
<privatemusings> I think he was quite fired up at that point... but I hope it's sunk in a bit now...
<Norma> I don't think I am quite clear on what the legal problem is between oscar and he, what is it exactly?
<privatemusings> he's certainly committed firmly to making no legal threats, not engaging in dispute on en.....
<privatemusings> (not --> nor)
<privatemusings> Norma.. I only know what has been mentioned publicly...
<privatemusings> which is basically that Guido feels Oscar said something actionable in some forum or other.....
<Norma> well, you are much more informed than I about this situation
<privatemusings> likely the .nl wiki, or arbcom processes, I guess....?
<privatemusings> hang on... oscar replied at meta....
<privatemusings> grabbing the link....
<Norma> link?
<privatemusings> to oscar's reply on meta...
<privatemusings> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Oscar#G.27day_Oscar
<privatemusings> "the latter briefly announcing he will sue for slander, illegal appropriation of authority, violation of copyrights as well as encouraging these crimes"
<privatemusings> that's the detail of Guido's legal issue with Oscar on .nl
<Norma> ok, well if he intends to, or claims to intend to sue anyone about anything on wikipedia
<Norma> we would probably prefer him blocked
<privatemusings> ah no...
<privatemusings> "Re Privatemusings: no, a dispute occuring entirely on another Wikimedia project will, in most cases, not be of concern to the English Wikipedia."
<Jeane> then how else are we supposed to read that, exactly?
<privatemusings> that's thebainer.....
<privatemusings> "It would be quite possible for two users engaged in a legal dispute relating to another project to continue editing here if they kept the dispute off the wiki and in the proper legal channels."
<privatemusings> (continues....)
<Norma> thebainer does not make policy however
<Jeane> it's not entirely on another project if we're dealing with it
<privatemusings> we're dealing with his current block, no?
<privatemusings> not the legal matter per se..
<privatemusings> it kinda boils down to this.. if you ask Guido on .nl 'are you gonna use legal threats'
<privatemusings> he says 'Yes!'
<privatemusings> however, per our arbs (and others) - that in and of itself is not a block rationale on en
<Norma> until the arbitration committee finds, as a whole, that this is true
<privatemusings> Guido on en has stated "I have no desire to make a legal threat on en:Wikipedia,"
<Jeane> then, as we've said at least five times, he needs to make that perfectly clear without any ambiguity. You keep quoting one passage from him, yes, but Norma has noticed that it's not entirely clear at times
<Norma> it seems it would be safer
<Jeane> to keep him blocked
<Jeane> sorry for finishing your sentence
<privatemusings> okey dokey.. I'm getting two slightly different pieces of advice.. I think!
<Jeane> no
<privatemusings> Norma... the trouble with requiring clarification from arbcom, is they were just asked for it, and decided it wasn't appropriate for them to consider...
<privatemusings> Jeane... I think you're saying that if Guido clears up the fact that he wishes to pursue no legal issue relating to en then he could be unblocked?
<Jeane> 1 moment
<privatemusings> (i totally understand that this is a very difficult situation.... please don't worry about saying 'I just don't know' - I'm just hoping that there might be a way through to help an editor enjoy useful en wiki editing.... :-) )
<Norma> considering that the arbcom doesn't provide any guidance, the board provides no guidance, and that any legal problem involving wikipedia in anyway, even if it was only used by the two parties to contact each other, is a potential cause for things like records to be pulled from the foundation, I am left with the opinion, that the option to ensuring the best interests of the foundation is the...
<Norma> ...block the user, until this issue is settled elsewhere
<Norma> though as you say, it is a complex situation
* Jeane is saying the same thing as Norma
<privatemusings> in a very friendly way... could you explain which policy Guido is blocked per?
<Jeane> until it is very clear that all threats are removed, he stays blocked
<privatemusings> ah...
<privatemusings> here's another way of looking at it....
<Jeane> thebainer does not make policy by himself
<privatemusings> I think Guido may be of the perspective that no legal threat was issued on en....
<Jeane> therefore, he could be blocked for a legal threat elsewhere, if it's in the best interests of WP and the Foundation
<privatemusings> he may be wrong about that....
<privatemusings> but regardless - he has committed to not issue, or engage in any legal matter on en....
<Jeane> PM, there really is no other way of looking at it and I'm tired of you trying to wheedle your way to an answer you want
<privatemusings> no wheedling here!
<Jeane> he is not going to be unblocked without a full-length on-wiki discussion
<privatemusings> of course not!
<privatemusings> and do feel free to disengage... I know this isn't fun, or easy at all..
<Jeane> this discussion really gets you nowhere, as we're going to keep saying the same thing
<Jeane> he stays blocked until further notice.
<privatemusings> no - you're saying lots of different things... though I understand you may not recognise it.
<Jeane> care to elaborate?
<privatemusings> sure... but lets take this nice 'n slow..
<privatemusings> first let me say I really appreciate you guys taking a look at this
<Norma> umm, I'll let you guys discuss that, but I really have to go soon. Just to restate my views shortly
<Norma> If Guido intends no legal action against anyone -> unblock
<Jeane> aye, it is 1 in the morning where I currently am, PM
<Norma> If he does, and it involves anything that has happened on wikiepdia in anyway -> stay blocked
<Norma> I think he needs to clarify that before we take any action
* Jeane 's views are exactly the same as Norma's. The policy is crystal clear
<privatemusings> Norma... I think this is clear - but by 'wikipedia' you mean both en and nl?
<Norma> by wikipedia I mean any of the wikimedia foundation projects, I don't care if that is the mongo wikinews :)
<Jeane> both are controlled by the Foundation.
<privatemusings> heh :-)
<Norma> my wikipedia bias is showing there I am afraid :)
<Jeane> the NLT policy exists mainly to protect the foundation
<privatemusings> thanks for your time Norma and Jeane..
<privatemusings> I think we've probably gotten as far as we can usefully in one go... I'll certainly give your comments further thought....
<Norma> I would ask guido to clarify the situation
<privatemusings> quick final thought... next step is AN discussion or appeal to arbcom, Norma?
<Norma> and let me know if he does, I would be happy to look in to it again
<Jeane> PM: if you insist on continuing this, most likely. Although from what I can tell, you
<Norma> ask me once he clarifies the situation :) I think the best option is to go to arbcom, and if they reject it, then take it to AN. Possibly that will result in going to arbcom anyway
<Jeane> 've done most everything (stupid keyboard)
<privatemusings> Norma. I think I'd better leave arbcom alone for a while! - it was only rejected earlier this week :-)
<Norma> the best option of course would be for him to say "I do not intend to legally threaten anyone"
<privatemusings> "I have no desire to make a legal threat on en:Wikipedia, nor to engage in any aspects of external disputes here"
<Norma> well, considering that, perhaps it would be best to wait until this legal issue is resolved, if it exists
<privatemusings> no? :-)
<Jeane> then, of course, he gets unblocked here and on nl
<Jeane> PM, no
<Jeane> because as we've said, it involves the Foundation
<Jeane> and by extension, all projects
<Jeane> that's how we're seeing it
<privatemusings> I was sort of hoping that if Guido enjoyed contributing usefully on en that it might help him build bridges back to contributing usefully across the wikimedia projects....
<privatemusings> sure...
<Jeane> a full discussion may see it another way
<Jeane> but you need a full discussion
<Jeane> not here
<Norma> I think that the question is not if he intends to make a legal threat
<Norma> but if he intends to sue oscar over anything that remotely could involve wikipedia
<Norma> that is the question I need answered :)
<privatemusings> that tallies quite well with what jpgordon said...
<privatemusings> "But what it boils down to is the interpretation of the "this is your final chance" comment from Guido"
<privatemusings> "The case is only worth taking if the comment was not in violation of WP:NLT"
<privatemusings> ..presumably so the arbs could then clarify cross wiki legal threat issues.....
<Norma> legal threats should be handled case by case
<Norma> so thanks for bringing forward your concerns
<privatemusings> thanks heaps Norma, and Jeane.... I think we've covered some good ground - and that's probably enough for now....
<privatemusings> cheers, :-)
<Norma> feel free to contact me, here, my talk page, via email, I'll be happy to look in to it
<privatemusings> thanks.