| Source
|
Text in article
|
Support?
|
Notes
|
| 1 (a)
|
"the most famous trotting track in the country"
|
y
|
|
| b
|
As many as 10,000 spectators attended races at Fleetwood. According to The Sun's Guide to New York (which promoted itself as providing "Suggestions to Sightseers and Practical Information for Practical People"
|
n y
|
Not seeing 10,000
- Added missing citation
|
| c
|
"the easiest way to get to the track was by train from Grand Central to nearby Melrose station,"
|
y? y
|
It's unclear from the article what nearby in "nearby Melrose station" means, and I don't see it in the source so might be worth nixing the word?
- Done
|
| d
|
"In 1892 The Sun's Guide described Fleetwood as "the most famous trotting track in the country"."
|
y? y
|
Strictly it says "for a time" the track was "the most famous", so maybe amend to: described Fleetwood as having once been "the most famous..."
- Used more complete quote under Operations, left the shorter version in the lead
- That's what I would do, too
|
| e
|
The Guide noted, however, that interest in harness racing by horse owners had waned, the track had "gone into a decline"
|
y
|
|
| f
|
"and that the single annual meeting was "not an important meeting", not being part of harness racing's Grand Circuit."
|
y
|
|
| g
|
The Sun's Guide lamented that the track was "famous more for the men who sent their horses there than for great races"
|
y
|
Needs page number, you use rp for other citations of this source
- Done
|
| 2a
|
Fleetwood Park was located in the town of Morrisania, Westchester County (now the Morrisania section of the Bronx), on the west side of Railroad (now Park) Avenue. This area lies between Webster and Sheridan Avenues and 165th and 167th Streets on the modern Bronx street grid.
|
n?
|
can't find "railroad avenue" in the source
-At what point do things become WP:BLUE? Right next to this, I present a 1885 map that shows Fleetwood Park immediately to the west of Railroad Ave. Does this map count as a RS?
-For something like this, I would say yes, but you should cite the map. It's already FN 4 in the references, isn't it?
- Done.
|
| b
|
who ran the track as Fleetwood Park
|
y
|
|
| c
|
The track was permanently closed on January 1, 1898, when the city began constructing streets on the property.
|
y
|
|
| d
|
oval by the New York Driving Club (NYDC)
|
y
|
|
| e
|
not done yet
|
|
|
| 3 a
|
The covered grandstand
|
y
|
|
| b
|
The clubhouse was a French Second Empire-style building which overlooked the track.
|
yes, but y
|
Is really close to the source's phrasing. Not a major concern because it is such a short sentence, but can you think of any way to rephrase?
- Done
|
| c
|
Modern-day 167th Street diverges from the otherwise Modern-day 167th Street diverges from the otherwise rectilinear grid; the oblique portion of the street's route follows the northern leg of the racecourse grid; the oblique portion of the street's route follows the northern leg of the racecourse
|
yes, but y
|
I think this sentence could be phrased in a way that's a bit clearer. Maybe add "diverges from the track's otherwise rectilinear grid; the oblique portion of the street's route follows the northern leg of the racecourse"?
- I'm not sure what you mean here. It's not the track that's rectilinear, it's the street grid. I've changed this a bit, tell me if that helps.
-Your rephrase helps I got tripped up in the weeds.
|
| d
|
Horses had been raced near the Fleetwood Park location as early as 1750, on a racecourse built by Staats Long Morris who took advantage of the relatively level land
|
y
|
|
| e
|
is unknown how long the Morris track lasted, and there is no further record of racing in the immediate area until 1870
|
y
|
|
| f
|
In 1870, William Morris leased part of his estate to two brothers, Henry and Philip Dater
|
n?
|
Where do "Henry and Philip" appear in the source?
- Well, that sent me on a merry romp. This was originally cited to ref 10 of Special:Permalink/1151256724 (https://issuu.com/theriverdalereview/docs/riverdale_09_26_2013, page 5) which I eventually dropped when I decided this local community free paper wasn't a RS. BTW, I think this was also supporting "Railroad Avenue" at one time. At this point, I see two choices. One would be to drop Henry and Philip's first names. But, I think the better choice would actually be to add the source back, depending on the author's standing as an established expert in the field (i.e. Lloyd Ultan (historian)). I'd appreciate your input on this.
-Lloyd is certainly a subject matter expert, so I would feel comfortable with your citing his article to establish their names. Interesting that the Clay Avenue Historic District seems to think that there is a person named "Dater Brothers"... (though there most certainly was not)
- Done.
|
| g
|
|
y
|
|
| h
|
The Daters' venture failed and the property reverted to Morris in 1880
|
y
|
|
| i
|
The track was permanently closed on January 1, 1898, when the city began constructing streets on the property.
|
y
|
|
| j
|
The first part of the property to be developed was the block of Clay Avenue between 165th and 166th Streets, with thirty-two semi-detached houses and three apartment buildings erected between 1901 and 1910. In 1994, the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission designated this block the Clay Avenue Historic District.
|
n
|
can't find any of this on cited page
- Sigh, another victim of the recent churn. It's the right source, but scattered about pages 2-5. What's the best thing to do here? Should I just make the source say pp 2-5, or go back to the {{rp}} style for each instance?
- I think you're fine just changing the range to 2-5 in the citation template, because 3 pages is still a very small range.
|
| k
|
Members of the club included William K. Vanderbilt, William Rockefeller, William C. Whitney, Leonard Jerome,
|
|
|
| 4 (a-b)
|
clubhouse, judges' stand, and other buildings were clustered along the southwest corner of the track, adjacent to Sheridan Ave
A 1885 map shows it as roughly rectangular with a bulge on one side, yielding five turns – four to the left and one to the right, if run counter-clockwise.
|
y
|
|
| 5
|
Valentine's Manual described the park as "the broad acres of that well-known rendezvous of all lovers of the turf",
|
yes, but
|
url is dead
- It used to work. The copy in Internet Archive is still there. There's a deep-link to a PDF on the original site that still works, but I'm hesitant to publish that kind of deep link.
- You could either mark the url as dead in the source, or replace it with a google books link (the same book is digitized there, as well).
- Marked dead. GBooks doesn't have this particular year available.
|
| 6 a (b not checked yet)
|
"oddly shaped"
|
y
|
|
| 7
|
"queer shaped"
|
y
|
|
| 8 (a-c)
|
10,00 people
"People also came by carriage from Manhattan, or steamboat from Fulton Market slip in Brooklyn and Peck Slip in Manhattan to the Morrisania dock from which they made connections via horse-drawn coaches"... "For most of the track's lifetime, trotting races were run on the 1-mile (1.6 km)"
|
y
|
|
| 9 (a and b)
|
with the trip taking 15 minutes... festival
|
y
|
|
| 10
|
including youth baseball games.
|
yes, but
|
the source is from 1900, which would have been after the track closed, right? Is there indication that such baseball games occurred before?
- Not that I'm aware of. This is really peripheral, so I've just cut that part out.
|
| 11
|
"The North Third Avenue and Fleetwood Park Railroad ran from 138th Street to the Fleetwood Park entrance."
|
n?
|
I'm not convinced by 10 and 11 that they establish the railway was actually built: 11 is about the intent to build, and 10 is about companies merging, doesn't tell us much about the physical railroads -- and seems to say they weren't completed when the merging happened?
-The history of railways in the Bronx is messy and not well documented. This doesn't add a lot to the reader's understanding of the racetrack, so I've just dropped that sentence
|
| 11 & 12
|
"on other occasions, pigeon shooting contests involving live birds and shotguns were held"
|
y
|
|
| 13
|
"An 1897 New York City ordinance forbade the discharge of firearms within the city, with Fleetwood Park noted as one of the specific areas exempted from the prohibition"
|
y
|
|
| 14
|
The exemption was deleted from the ordinance in 1906, as the track was "no longer used as [a] shooting ground".
|
y
|
|
| 15 & 16
|
y
|
|
| 17
|
"The fair was to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus arriving in the New World. In 1890, however, the US Congress designated Chicago as the host city for the World's Columbian Exposition."
|
y
|
|
| 18 a and b
|
In an 1881 study of the geology of the region, J. D. Dana described Fleetwood Park as "low and nearly flat, except its western side"... The limestone area No. 2 ... joins that already described through the region of Fleetwood Park ... The northern limit of the belt is about two miles north of McComb's (or Central) Bridge. At this north extremity ... two valleys come up from the south and meet [the more eastern one] passes into Fleetwood Park. The limestone of Morrisania extends westward over three-fourths of Fleetwood Park and then northward ... The high land between the two valleys forming the western side of Fleetwood Park consists mainly of schist.
|
y
|
|
| 19
|
and theorized this (along with other features of the area) was caused by limestone belts which were subject to easy erosion
|
y
|
|
| 21
|
Two other racetracks operated in the Bronx at around the same time. Jerome Park, a thoroughbred track, was opened in 1866 and operated until 1890. It was about 3 miles (4.8 km) north of Fleetwood Park, where Jerome Park Reservoir is now located
|
n?
|
Don't see 3 miles in the source. It is not clear at first glance with: "where Jerome Park Reservoir is now located" whether you're saying that Fleetwood Park or Jerome Park is located where the reservoir is now located. Maybe say "Now the site of Jerome Park Reservoir, the track was about..." for clarity
- I've rephrased that for clarity and removed the specific distances. If you could provide a link to the RFC you mention in the next item, that would help me understand the broader issue.
-Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Using maps as sources. My impression is that if it isn't immediately clear from the map, you should probably avoid use of the map.
|
| 22 and 23
|
Morris Park which operated from 1889 to 1904, also for thoroughbreds, was located about 3 miles (4.8 km) east of Fleetwood, in what is now the Morris Park neighborhood of the Bronx.
|
?
|
can't find 3 miles in the source here either.
- This and a bunch of similar statements pre-date the map I did showing the locations of all the sites mentioned, as an attempt to show how all these places related. No, there's no specific source for the distances per WP:BLUE. Maybe the best thing would be to just drop all those statements and let people look at the map?
- There's just been a lengthy rfc[citation needed], and my general impression is that you can't use maps to cite like specific distances, but you could cite it to say "was located to the east of Fleetwood", for instance, which might work...
|
| 24 (a and b)
|
"The name Fleetwood has been associated with this area since at least 1850, when the New York Industrial Home Association No. 1 was organized as a cooperative to build homes for "tradesmen, employees, and other persons of small means"... "This was soon changed to Monticello City, and again in 1851 to Mount Vernon."
|
y
|
|
| 25
|
Monticello was originally chosen as the name for this new settlement, although Fleetwood was one of several in consideration.
|
y
|
|
| 26
|
y
|
Strictly speaking, do either of the sources explicitly mention "Fleetwood Village"... Maybe just "a village of Fleetwood"? though there's really no difference and it is *not* a big deal at all
- Dropped the word "village".
|
| 27
|
y
|
|
| 28
|
y
|
|
| 29
|
yes, but
|
Needs page number or something for verifiability purposes. You could cite it as the entry for "fleetwood". archive.org also has a copy which may allow you to narrow a page number down.
- I did have "at=Fleetwood" in the citation, but the template didn't display that in a useful way. In any case, I've switched the citation to the copy of an earlier edition in IA which does have page numbers.
|
| 30
|
y
|
|
| 20
|
Not Done Yet
|
|
|
| 31
|
|
y
|
|
| 32
|
|
y
|
|
| 33
|
|
y?
|
is 1881 in the source?
|
| 34 (a b c)
|
(note for self: c cites "reported as over 500 in 1886"
|
y
|
|
| 35
|
not checking, assuming inflation calcs are correct
|
|
|
| 36
|
(noting for self that b this cites that Bonner was president)
|
y
|
|
| 37
|
The New York Times observed in 1895 that the track had reached 25 years of continuous operation that year, outlasting many of the other trotting tracks of its day. The paper noted that $200,000 (equivalent to $6,100,000 in 2022) had been invested in grading the terrain of the Morris estate to make it suitable for racing. A depression at the southeastern end had been filled and rocks at the northern end had to be removed by rock blasting and cutting. In 1896, the New York Driving Club renewed its lease with a $2,500 (equivalent to $88,000 in 2022) reduction in rent
|
n y
|
Is there a missing citation to the New York Times for the beginning of this? (I may just be missing it)
-Missing reference located after a short search of the cutting room floor. Restored.
|
| 38
|
"Pressure from real-estate developers led to the track being closed the next year with the last meeting held on October 8, 1897"
|
n?
|
is "pressure from real-estate developers" in the source?
- Sigh. OK, at least I'm starting to understand how these things got into this state. This particular error happened at Special:Diff/1062052199 where the Rider book (ref 38) was added and accidentally included more in its scope than it should have.
|
| 39a, 40, 41
|
|
y
|
|
| 39 b - d
|
|
y?
|
one minor qualm: "phoenixlike" is written as one word in the source
- Fixed
|
| 42
|
Despite these proclamations, by the end of 1898, it was announced that the new track would be built in Yonkers and operated by William H. Clark.
|
y
|
"near Yonkers" would probably be more faithful to the source, but I don't think that's a big deal, especially wit variation between Yonkers then and Yonkers now
-I'm going to leave this as is. I could add something like "near what was at the time Yonkers, but inside the current city limit", but I think that would just add confusion for no worthwhile reason.
-Agreed
|
| 43/44
|
The following year, the Empire City Trotting Club began operations at Yonkers Raceway.
|
y
|
|
| 45/46
|
|
y
|
|
| 47
|
|
y
|
|
| 48 - 50
|
|
y
|
|
| 52 (a)/53
|
What is modern-day Teller Avenue was originally named Fleetwood Avenue, after the track. The name was changed to Teller Avenue in 1871, honoring Richard H. Teller, one of the commissioners of Morrisania.
|
n?
|
1) you might clarify what being a "commissioner of Morrisania" was (NOT SOURCING)
2) I think the map of morrisania was made in 1871, not the renaming of the street
-Done
|
| b-d
|
|
y
|
|
| 54-55
|
|
y
|
|
| 56
|
Improvements in preparation for the track's first Grand Circuit meeting included upgrading the grand stand, painting fences, trimming foliage, and enlarging the band stand. A new starter, Frank Walker, was hired with the hopes of speeding up the scoring process.
|
y
|
|
| 57
|
|
y
|
|
| 58
|
|
y
|
|
| 59
|
|
y
|
|
| 61
|
|
y
|
|
| 62
|
|
y
|
|
| 65
|
Grant was a skilled horseman who could ride, drive and train them as required.
|
yes, but... y
|
I think you can find a better source than an 1898 source that talks only about Grant's prowess as a teenager
-Forgive me if I focus on the "yes" part of that. Grant's horsemanship is peripheral to the main subject, and I link to an article which covers that topic extensively. If you have a specific reference in mind that would be better here, I'll be happy to use it.
- Nothing to forgive, I would hope you push back on whatever you don't agree with. That being said, 1) while I think it's fine that most of your sources are from the 19th/20th centuries, when there is something that is supported by a newer reliable source, I would always want to see that cited 2) the only depth on the page you cite for this is two examples from when Grant was ten and eleven, respectively. Not the best sourcing for saying that Grant as an adult was a skilled horseman. Why not just this Sports Illustrated article? It has quotes from several biographies. Or the more recent NPS article? Or this bio profile?
-Done
|
| 66 (and 67)
|
Perhaps the most famous was Maud S. (1874–1900), who held seven world record times set over the span of six years. She was renowned for the high price Bonner paid for her.
|
n?
|
Do either 66 or 67 establish that Maud S. was "renowned for the high price Bonner paid for her"?
- I've added two sources which directly address that the price paid was remarkable.
|
| 63
|
|
y
|
|
| 64
|
|
y
|
|
| 65 and 66
|
|
y
|
|
| 68 (and 69) (and 70)
|
Alix (1888–1901), known as the "Queen of the Turf", was the world trotting champion for six years, while Directum (1889–1909) at one time held the record for fastest heat by a four-year-old.
|
y? y
|
Technically, Alex and Directum held the record for four year olds together? -- might be worth clarifying
-I'm not following. Those dates are the years of birth and death of the horses, not when they held the records. Is that what's confusing you?
-- The source says that Directum "shared with Alix the fastest heat trotted at that time" rather than directly held the record
-The source says "Directum was ... winner of the fastest heat by a four-year-old". That's the fact I quoted. It then adds "and shared with Alix the fastest heat trotted at that time", which as far as I can tell is referring to a different record. I'm not entirely sure what that additional record is, and (pushback alert) I don't think it would add to the article to bring that confusion into the picture.
-If you are quoting that part of the source, then it is incorrect to describe it as a "record", as the source only attributes it winning a heat.
- I stand corrected. You're right, it was a record.
|
| - (and 71)
|
Goldsmith Maid (1857–1885) earned an estimated $364,200 (equivalent to $11,860,000 in 2022) over 13 years, which was a prize money record for half a century
|
y
|
|
