User:DankJae/sandbox/6

Talk proposal preparation

Implementing new official names, firstly Ceredigion?

Hi all, should we give recognition to new "official names" (recognised by both the government's WLC and local council) in a lead of an article? Or just the body. I believe so as it is likely the "official name" would be added anyway but more likely with removing the previous name, leading to inconsistencies between title and lead. Giving incorrect primacy to WP:OFFICIALNAMES really, although many of these would likely be quickly adopted to justify moves, but not blanketly.

A few years ago the Welsh Language Commissioner published a list of standardised Welsh place-names in Ceredigion, where they recommended certain place-names, particularly in Welsh, although sometimes also in English, to use. Since the list was made, Ceredigion County Council have announced they now recognise them, therefore kinda means there are new "official names" for many places in Ceredigion, which probably should be mentioned in the articles somehow? There have possibly been attempts already, maybe leading to inconsistencies between leads and titles, or the full removal of the former form(s). I propose:

• The official name should be mentioned in both body and lead (lede). Unless only body?
• To use the format below, basically "officially PLACE" and others. Unless alternatives?
• As {{Infobox UK place}} uses official_name for the top name, these should be used. Unless not?
• This becomes a guideline for all counties when/if their councils recognise (or seem to recognise) the list. Or should each individual county be discussed here first?

This is not for article titles themselves, per WP:OFFICIALNAMES. Just the leads, the titles are a separate matter. Although I may look at each name to see if a RM is needed at some point.

Leads to change in Ceredigion

Article title Official Welsh Official English Possible lead Aberarth Aber-arth Aber-arth Aberarth, officially Aber-arth, is a Aberbanc Aber-banc Aber-banc Aberbanc, officially Aber-banc, is a Aberffrwd Aber-ffrwd Aber-ffrwd Aberffrwd, officially Aber-ffrwd, is a Aberporth Aber-porth Aber-porth Aberporth, officially Aber-porth, is a Alltyblacca Alltyblaca Alltyblaca Alltyblacca, officially Alltyblaca, is a Blaen Celyn Blaencelyn Blaencelyn Blaen Celyn, officially Blaencelyn, is a Blaen-geuffordd Blaengeuffordd Blaengeuffordd Blaen-geuffordd, officially Blaengeuffordd, is a Blaenplwyf Blaen-plwyf Blaen-plwyf Blaenplwyf, officially Blaen-plwyf (and previously Pontllanio), is a Bont Goch Bont-goch Bont-goch Bont Goch, officially Bont-goch (and also known as Bontgoch or Elerch), is a Upper Borth Y Borth Uchaf Upper Borth Upper Borth (Welsh: Y Borth Uchaf) is a Borth Y Borth Y Borth Borth, officially Y Borth, is a Brongwyn Bron-gwyn Bron-gwyn Brongwyn, officially Bron-gwyn, is a Bryngwyn Bryn-gwyn Bryn-gwyn Bryngwyn, officially Bryn-gwyn (Welsh for 'White hill'), is a Cefn-y-Llwyd Cefn-llwyd Cefn-llwyd Cefn-y-Llwyd, officially Cefn-llwyd, is a New Quay Ceinewydd New Quay New Quay (Welsh: Cei Newydd; official form: Ceinewydd) is a Comins Coch Comins-coch Comins-coch Comins Coch, officially Comins-coch, is a Craig-y-penrhyn Craigypenrhyn Craigypenrhyn Craig-y-penrhyn, officially Craigpenrhyn, is a Oakford Derwen-gam Oakford Oakford (Welsh: Derwen Gam; official form: Derwen-gam) is a Drefach Dre-fach Dre-fach Drefach, officially Dre-fach, is a Eglwys Fach Eglwys-fach Eglwys-fach Eglwys Fach, officially Eglwys-fach (and also spelled Eglwysfach), is a Felin-Wnda Felinwnda Felinwnda Felin-Wnda, officially Felinwnda, is a Ffair Rhos Ffair-rhos Ffair-rhos Ffair Rhos, officially Ffair-rhos, is a Gilfachrheda Gilfachreda Gilfachreda Gilfachrheda, officially Gilfachreda, is a Glan-y-wern Glan-wern Glan-wern Glan-y-wern, officially Glan-wern, is a Gorsgoch Gors-goch Gors-goch Gorsgoch, officially Gors-goch, is a Llandre Llandre (alt Llanfihangel Genau’r-glyn) Llandre Llandre, also known as Llanfihangel Genau'r-glyn, is a unless proven not used in English Llandre (sometimes Welsh: Llanfihangel Genau'r-glyn) is a Llandyfriog Llandyfrïog Llandyfrïog Llandyfriog, officially Llandyfrïog, is a Llanfihangel y Creuddyn Llanfihangel-y-Creuddyn Llanfihangel-y-Creuddyn Llanfihangel y Creuddyn, officially Llanfihangel-y-Creuddyn, is an Llanarth Llannarth Llannarth Llanarth, officially Llannarth, is both Llanerchaeron Llannerch Aeron Llannerch Aeron Llanerchaeron, officially Llannerch Aeron, and historically Llanayron House, is Llanon Llan-non Llan-non Llanon, officially Llan-non, is a Llansantffraid Llansanffraid Llansanffraid Llansantffraid, officially Llansanffraid (and also known as Llansantffraed), is a Pen-bont-rhyd-y-beddau Pen-bont Rhydybeddau Pen-bont Rhydybeddau Pen-bont-rhyd-y-beddau, officially Pen-bont Rhydybeddau, is a Penparc Pen-parc Pen-parc Penparc, officially Pen-parc (and also known as Penyparc), is a Pen-Rhiw-Newydd Penrhiwnewydd Penrhiwnewydd Pen-Rhiw-Newydd, officially Penrhiwnewydd, is a Penrhiwpal Penrhiwpâl Penrhiwpâl Penrhiwpal, officially Penrhiwpâl, is a Pentre-gat Pentregât Pentregât Pentre-gat, officially Pentregât, is a Pentrellwyn Pentre-llwyn Pentre-llwyn Pentrellwyn, officially Pentre-llwyn, is a Penuwch Pen-uwch Pen-uwch Penuwch, officially Pen-uwch, is a Pont Ceri Pontceri Pontceri Pont Ceri, officially Pontceri, is a Ponthirwaun Pont-hirwaun Pont-hirwaun Ponthirwaun, officially Pont-hirwaun, is a Rhyd-Rosser Rhydroser Rhydroser Rhyd-Rosser, officially Rhydroser, is a Talsarn Tal-sarn Tal-sarn Talsarn, officially Tal-sarn, is a Tre-Taliesin Tre Taliesin Tre Taliesin Tre-Taliesin, officially Tre Taliesin, is a Tregroes Tre-groes Tre-groes Tregroes, officially Tre-groes (Welsh for 'Settlement of the Cross'), is a Tresaith Tre-saith Tre-saith Tresaith, officially Tre-saith (and previously Treathsaith), is a Troedyraur Troed-yr-aur Troed-yr-aur Troedyraur, officially Troed-yr-aur, is a Ty'n-y-graig Tyn-y-graig Tyn-y-graig Ty'n-y-graig, officially Tyn-y-graig, is a Ynyslas Ynys-las Ynys-las Ynyslas, officially Ynys-las (Welsh for 'blue island'), is a Ystrad Aeron Ystradaeron Ystradaeron Ystrad Aeron, officially Ystradaeron, is a Ystrad Fflur Ystrad Fflur Strata Florida Ystrad Fflur, also known officially in English as Strata Florida, is a Ystrad Meurig Ystradmeurig Ystradmeurig Ystrad Meurig, officially Ystradmeurig, is a

Possible format

Alternate official English name XXX, officially NNN, is Alternate official English name becomes more accepted than the previous name (so when use changes in preference for the official form) No one format, should follow any page move, so "or" "also known as" "previously" "formerly" etc. can all be used. Alternate Welsh official name XXX (Welsh:CCC; official form: DDD) is Welsh Official name becomes more accepted than the previous Welsh name (so when use changes in preference for the official form) XXX (Welsh: XXX; or previously: CCC) Official Welsh name already used; Alternate Welsh name XXX (sometimes Welsh:CCC) is Official English name already used; Alternate English name XXX (also known as DDD in English) Official Welsh name already used; Alternate English name XXX, also known officially in English as DDD, is If there is another context I missed, please raise!

Above are the list of new leads, trying to experiment a consistent format. If there are errors please correct/raise.

I did consider applying this to all standardised names, however limited to only those clearly recognised by the council, as I find them to be the ultimate authority on what name is signposted. Unless, all councils have privately accepted them? Monmouthshire cited the list when defending not using Y Dyfawden, but idk if it is for all of their names, or Monmouthshire just never added the (former) Welsh name? Nonetheless, the format for Ceredigion should set a basis for the others, should their councils adopt them. The main change I am arguing here is using "officially", and "official form" and the prominence in leads, other alternative names can be reworded in the lead to fit the context.

If there are no comments, would boldly apply (only "official" ones) a month after raising this.

Discussion

Add comments below. Thanks

Tautological names

Should Wales adopt a similar naming convention as Wikipedia:ENGLANDPLACE, where tautological names there such as Lincoln, Lincolnshire and Worcester, Worcestershire, were replaced with Lincoln, England, and Worcester, England, based on the argument that if a settlement is repeated in its disambiguator tag, that it is not really helpful to readers and tautological? That it basicallly means "Place, Placecounty".

Such possible NC/guideline may be worded as:

When a place and principal area use variants of the same name, disambiguate with Wales for clarity throughout the English-speaking world; thus [to give examples if approved]

This proposal would only really impact the following:

• Flint, Flintshire → Flint, Wales
• Pembroke, Pembrokeshire → Pembroke, Wales

And the following should they no longer be considered primary:

• Monmouth, Monmouthshire → Monmouth, Wales

It basically already applies to Newport, Wales, which would've been Newport, Newport* but that is a more extreme example, while those above are using derivatives. In the end the main argument is "Pembroke is in Pembroke[shire]" seems very self-evident and not beneficial and therefore these specific cases should be avoided.

Based on this wording, it wouldn't apply to Cardigan, Ceredigion as the former is actually derived from the latter, even though I'd personally prefer Cardigan, Wales because both names are related. It is NOT to be applied to all settlements in Wales, which should at the highest use the principal area for disambiguation, so other places in Pembrokeshire and Flintshire should continue using "Pembrokeshire" and "Flintshire" in their titles.

This name convention would need to precede any RMs to provide arguments for, otherwise it would just be personal preference. Even if it only applies to two articles, a NC ideally would help make it more justified.

Tautological leads

Proposed guidelines for when "railway station" in a title, isn't needed for the lead.

Guideline on only using the Welsh pronunciation

Should the following be implemented as a project guideline:

Names classed to be Welsh should only have a sole phonetic IPA, to match their spelling, in leads. Unphonetic pronunciations for Welsh words should not be used. Localised and common mispronunciations should be sourced and only be mentioned in the body of an article if necessary to the article and decided by local consensus.

This assumes that there are no "set English pronunciations" (in MOS:DUALPRON) for Welsh names, but all are mispronunciations that should not be in any article. This means most articles will have "one correct pronunciation".