User:Σ/Testing facility/TP/GoodKey

tis the season

This page was last edited or modified by Zinnober9 (talk).

Wise words given to a blocked editor: This absolute adherence to the idea that your interpretation of the rules is paramount
and everyone else's input is merely an obstacle to overcome is an accurate summary of how you ended up in this position.
Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 4 August 2013
Well said!Liz ^{Read! Talk!}

While Wikipedia's written policies and guidelines should be taken seriously, they can be misused.
Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policy without consideration for the principles of policies.
If the rules truly prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them.
Disagreements are resolved through consensus-based discussion, not by tightly sticking to rules and procedures.
Furthermore, policies and guidelines themselves may be changed to reflect evolving consensus. (WP:NOT)

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A barnstar for you!

	The Surreal Barnstar
	For opposing a lengthy ban on a broad range of articles despite supporting some sort of ban. Moderation is a rare thing. MilesMoney (talk) 17:47, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

How unexpected, MilesMoney! Even though I disagree with you on, well, just almost everything, I think you offer a unique perspective to Wikipedia. I don't want you to quit editing, I just want you to work harder at consensus (i.e. try to play nicely with others!). Short bans can reinforce good behavior, lengthy bans or bans that basically forbid an Editor from contributing to their main subjects of interest, simply drive Editors away. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:15, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

That's exactly the point: you acted in good faith. By opposing a fatal ban, you showed that, whatever your concerns were, this wasn't just a way to get rid of me. Contrast this with the participants who've revealed through words and actions that this is their goal.

Given how good a job Wikipedia does at driving away contributors, your willingness to work with even those you disagree with is the sort of reasonable attitude that, if only it were more common, might reverse the decline of this site. Or, realistically, if only admins shut down these assassination attempts instead of enabling them.

In any case, I would have given this Barnstar to you sooner, but I wanted to wait until the report was locked down, so that it wouldn't appear as if this was an attempt to sway you. I genuinely wish the you best of luck, as you have been a Wikipedia rarity: an honorable opponent. MilesMoney (talk) 18:25, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, I know this is heresy but, as a sociologist, the process of creating the encyclopedia is as important to me as the actual content. Wikis are a modern invention, a unique effort of group collaboration. They often succeed when they focus on a specific topic (like a TV show or a programming language) and there is a homogeneous group of like-minded individuals. But the fact that Wikipedia tries to take on every aspect of knowledge, well, it is a miracle that it is still up and running and hasn't imploded, especially considering that there are individuals actively trying to disrupt it through vandalism.

I'm not sure if you've read about the wisdom of crowds, but crowd sourcing works when there is a wide diversity of perspectives, attitudes and talents. It's not just having a large group of people, each devoting a little time to create some big project but the fact that they represent so many different points of view that it can cancel out bias, particularly cultural bias which is invisible almost everyone.

Thanks again for the compliment. It's a nice antidote to the rancor one comes across on the noticeboards. Have a good weekend! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Well said Liz. Nobody can stand Miles. He's so feisty. But he's one of the best and most productive editors and knowledgeable in a broad range of content. SPECIFICO talk 18:37, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

LOL! I wouldn't expect you to say that, SPECIFICO, since you are such a loyal defender. I was just reading the user page of a particularly productive editor and their main piece of advice? Stay away from AN/I! The drama boards are a time sink, they suck all of your energy and leave one with the feeling that Wikipedia is going to hell.

Meanwhile, there are thousands of Editors, making contributions and going about their business, not lodging complaints, putting in the time and effort to get the articles in better shape, reverting vandalism, finding citations, editing awkward language into smooth prose. It's definitely not as exciting as going to battle but, you know, these Editors tend to last longer on Wikipedia. Personally, I'm not afraid to stand my ground but I am selective about the battles I take on. It helps to be a little detached from your work...it's not easy but it helps it not to sting when someone chooses to delete something you just wrote. Still stings a little. ;-) Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:49, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

We are in agreement. Miles is like the young mongrel puppy who has two different ears, a bristly coat, and keeps running in circles with too much energy. However I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he's a Rhodes Scholar as well. Ciao. SPECIFICO talk 18:58, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Liz, I appreciate how you bring empathy and subtlety to these pages. Both of those are extraordinarily rare in ANIs. Steeletrap (talk) 22:20, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Wow, Steeletrap, that's refreshing to hear. I get my share of grief (as I imagined you do, too) for defending Editors that others have written off as "disruptive". In fact, I was told that in defending one person, I was "just as bad as he was" and, according to this Editor, that was pretty damn awful! I don't think long-time users of Wikipedia realize the amount of insider jargon, standards, history and practices which are unknown to newer Editors. After 4, 5, 8 years of blocking vandals, even mild rabble-rousers start looking like potential vandals to some Admins (not all, but a few!).

I know when I've done vast amounts of grading or copy-editing, that it's easy to ignore what is normal while ones eye is drawn to errors or whatever seems like it doesn't fit in. Whatever deviates from normal is exaggerated and, on Wikipedia, mild irritations become suddenly intolerable. I spent a fair amount of my academic life studying deviancy and one core concept is that once a person becomes "labeled", others treat them differently (usually negatively). So, I am really antsy when I see labels like "troll", "sock", "vandal" or "fringe" thrown around, usually just to see if they stick. They are labels that are difficult to overcome once a critical number of influential people in ones social circle accepts that it is an accurate description. </soapbox> Any way, have a good weekend! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:45, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Liz, as a trans woman, I am all too well acquainted with the notion of the "Other" to which you are alluding. Miles is different from most people; all too often we are threatened by those who are different and seek to banish them rather than try to understand and find a place for them. Steeletrap (talk) 04:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, as a trans woman, Steeletrap, there is all the more reason why a project like Wikipedia needs your participation and to hear your perspective. My hope is that none of the Three Musketeers faces a block from editing the site but I can't tell which way the wind is blowing right now among the Admin crew. They have little patience when a dispute seems persistent and unlikely to be resolved. It helps to have allies who support you in these Noticeboard disputes. But what is even better than that is for those involved in a conflict to go through Dispute Resolution and find some way to work with each other. From what I've seen, in a "Last Person Standing" battle, there are often no winners. Peace. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:11, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The conflict

If you want to cut through to the core of the dispute; it boils down to basic organization more so than any concrete policy issue. Ryulong doesn't believe there should be different articles for anime and manga. I point to Harry Potter and how the movies and books are covered; noting that despite a very faithful adaptation different articles exist. The latest issues are amongst the largest and most notable of all anime. Each one more than 100 hours long and making hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. The Wikiproject is highly aligned against adaptations and their respective cast lists, reception, non-English dubs, music, themes and production segments. These are all segments that are perfect for stand alone articles. We can't even discuss a set index or disamb for Ghost in the Shell because Ryulong wants the manga to be page despite being part of 30+ works containing the name and a film and video game using the same name. And rather than let it take a natural form, listings of the media, even briefly, get removed as "not important".[1] There needs to be an intervention. Arb Com or not; hundreds of articles are affected and the entire scope of the project is deeply affected by the handful of editors of A&M who follow Ryulong's lead. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Chris, I don't know who is right and who is wrong, I just sense that if you and Ryulong show up one more time at AN/I, you'll both get blocked. I know nothing about anime or manga and I assume most Editors don't either so the details of the dispute are lost on me. All I notice are you and Ryulong at AN/I at least once a week, for the past two months. AN/I isn't a place to settle content issues. My advice is either go back to dispute resolution or file a request at ARBCOM but these weekly visits to AN/I are going to backfire soon. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:48, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I understand. I did not anticipate Knowledgekid's bring it to ANI - I was not informed or contacted prior to it. I sent a message inquiring about ArbCom yesterday, but pending response and this ANI's closure I believe I will be seeking it. Ryulong doesn't want to sit down and discuss, but Arb Com is not voluntary. These constant little battles over basic policy are disruptive to the community, but I hope you understand that repeatedly blanking and redirecting pages with 40 or more sources rightfully troubles me and my first response is to restore and state "take it to AFD per WP:BLAR". This is what provoked the ANI from Knowledgekid. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:05, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

From what I've gleaned from participating in a recent ARBCOM case, what's important in presenting a case request is

• Be concise. Do not go on and on, there are strict word limits (I believe 500 words). Do not waste words in a request, you can go into details if a case is accepted. If you go on too long, you will be asked to cut down your stratement. That doesn't start the request off on a positive note.
• Have diffs ready that are examples of the pattern of behavior or interactions that is causing a disruption.
• Do not use a request to make personal attacks. Stay focused on conduct, not personalities.
• Have individuals willing to write brief statements supporting your position.
• It really helps to have evidence that a) you tried, repeatedly, to work things out and b) that you can work constructively with other Editors in fruitful collaborations. Otherwise, it could appear that it is a problem you have working with others.

Just some unasked for advice. Good luck! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:29, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. I must admit that this is the last place I wanted this to go, but I suppose I should spend a few hours researching the history and running through everything. I've grown to become a better person and deal with conflict throughout this ordeal. I believe I could get it to about 250 words, but what do you mean by have people willing to write brief statements? And does this run afoul of canvassing? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:38, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Just a thought, but you might think about waiting a couple months before filing an Arbcom case. There will be a new committee then and you might have better luck getting it accepted/getting a sensible solution. Mark Arsten (talk) 03:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Magic Solution

But there is a magic solution. It just exists in a different universe, one in which magic works. So please don't be so dismissive of magic solutions. At least they may be the stuff of movies. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:15, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Now, the solution that was being proposed whose proponent thought it was so obvious that he didn't even repost it, so that an opponent had to repost it, isn't a solution to any problems of which I am aware. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:15, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

By the way, this has to do with your comment at User talk:Jimbo Wales in response to an absurdly complicated reform proposal. You said that there was no magic solution. It is a magic solution in search of a problem in an alternate universe. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Gotcha! ;-) Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:27, 4 November 2013 (UTC)