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The Signpost: 04 September 2013

Wikidata weekly summary #74

 
Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week.
Read the full report · Unsubscribe · Global message delivery 22:40, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)#A proposed tool for reducing backlogs

  You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)#A proposed tool for reducing backlogs. APerson (talk!) 01:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence phase open - Manning naming dispute

Dear Liz.

This is just a quick courtesy notice. You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute/Evidence. Please add your evidence by September 19, 2013, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Seddon talk 23:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, Seddon. I'm not sure what to do. I sort of said what I wanted to say in my statement and I wasn't an active participant in the discussion so I'm not presenting "evidence", just my opinion. What do you suggest? Liz Read! Talk! 23:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Parent categories

A number of your recent edits have added parent categories to articles. As a general rule, we avoid doing this. For example: Once Kel Mitchell is in Category:African-American male child actors, he should not be added to Category:African-American male actors[1] or Category:American male actors[2] as both of those categories are subcategories (or "daughter" categories) of Category:African-American male child actors. Similarly, we would not add him to :[[Category:African-American child actors, Category:African-American actors, Category:American male child actors, Category:American actors, etc. Please see Wikipedia:Categorization#Subcategorization for another explanation of the same issue. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

tp stalker here - what SummerPhD said is correct if the category in question is diffusing. if it's non-diffusing, then you *do* need to add to the parent category, or, a sibling (which is the same thing as adding to the parent, then immediately diffusing). Read WP:EGRS for guidelines on such categories. The actor categories are a bit special as they seem to be fully diffused on gender (but should not be diffused on race - the race cats should be non-diffusing)). Once you're done with your PhD in set theory you might understand how this works - it's rather complex... :( --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:43, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
I'll try to digest this all, SummerPhD and Obi-Wan Kenobi but there are a lot of inconsistencies with categories.
For example, take Denzel Washington...he could be categorized (this is ONLY considering his acting activity and not including award categories):
  • American stage actor
  • American film actor
  • America television actor
  • American voice actor
  • American actor
  • African-American stage actor
  • African-American film actor
  • African-American television actor
  • African-American voice actor
  • African-American actor
  • American male stage actor
  • American male film actor
  • America male television actor
  • American male voice actor
  • American male actor
  • African-American male stage actor
  • African-American male film actor
  • African-American male television actor
  • African-American male voice actor
  • African-American male actor
  • 20th-century actor
  • 20th-century male actor
  • 21st-century actor
  • 21st-century male actor
  • Actors from New York
  • Male actors from New York
  • Actors from Los Angeles, California
  • Male actors from Los Angeles, California
And this is assuming that he doesn't have additional ethnicity to consider and, again, does not include all of the acting award categories that could be applied. So, which ones do you select? Liz Read! Talk! 18:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Categories are not like resumes - they aren't intended to capture everything you did, they are intended to capture things which are DEFINING. I'd thus say that Denzel is not a television actor, that's not defining for him, nor a stage actor. I'd put him in the following, based on your list above:
  • American male film actor
  • African-American male film actor
  • 20th-century male actor
  • 21st-century male actor
  • Male actors from New York
  • Male actors from Los Angeles, California
Not - I think we should get rid of the "ethnicity+ gender" categories in the acting section - I don't see a point for it really - I'd much rather use category intersects to deal with this. But, as always, not my decision.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, this all started this morning because I noticed that there was Category:African-American child actresses and although there is a Category:African-American male child actors most young male actors were in Category:African-American child actors which should be the parent category for both gender categories. So, I was switching the last two.
Now, some of these child actors have transitioned to adult roles and they frequently had Category:African-American actors and Category:American actors (no gender) so I changed their categories to show gender since all of these acting categories have an "Actresses" component. I don't think there's controversy that if the category has a female component, then it should have a male component (although some don't bifurcate and use the same category for both men and women).
But I'm not sure about race and ethnicity. Should an actor be known as an African-American male actor or just an American male actor? It's even more complicated with ethnicity. Suppose an actress is Puerto Rican...then they are not only a "Puerto Rican actress" but an "American actress" (since Puerto Rico is part of the U.S.) but there is also an "American actress from Puerto Rico" and an "Actress with Puerto Rican descent". And that is just considering ethnic descent, not nationality which is another set of categories. And of course, also "Hispanic and Latin American actresses" and then the sub-categories for whatever medium they perform in. It is Categoripalooza.
Personally, I think that film/stage/voice/TV distinctions should be done away with. The way it is (because mostly fans write profile), if an actor has ever done a play, they are a "Stage actor". Likewise, there are a lot of rappers who had a cameo in a movie and are categorized "Film actor". At this point, so many film actors have moved to doing TV shows (and vice versa) that you end up with far too many categories.
At this point, you probably are thinking, "Why don't you pose these questions at the Categorization Talk Page?" Well, it's because you two will respond and when I had a pretty important question about gender orientation categorization, I didn't get much of a response (I think one reply, a month later) and I posted the question at WP:EGRS! Liz Read! Talk! 18:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Generally, ethnicity categories are non-diffusing. Meaning, if you're african-American X, you should also be "American X". Gender categories are ALSO non-diffusing, unless they aren't - such as the case with actors. So it's bit confusing. Puerto Rican is a bit of an odd/special case, there are different interpretations of how to categorize puerto rican people, I generally just stay away as it's not worth the hassle. I think there could be an argument to get rid of film/stage/voice/TV - however it is clear there are some people who really are most known for one thing (e.g. stage acting, film acting, TV acting, etc). --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Okay, let me get this straight, Obi-Wan Kenobi, since I've reread SummerPhD's comment several times and I still don't understand her point (and I've also read Wikipedia:Categorization but found it unclear).
Hypothetical case: If Denzel Washington is in "African-American male actors" then he should also be in "American male actors". But, if there didn't already exist a category for "African-American actresses" and "American actresses", then he'd simply be listed as "African-American actors" and "American actors". But since the category of "Actors" already has been bifurcated by gender, these division is still observed.
The ethnicity categories are confusing because it can mean, a) the country one was born in, b) the country one is a citizen of, c) the country where one works and d) the ethnic heritage of ones family ("descent"). Allowing from a mixed ethnic background from multiple relatives, this can quickly lead to overcategorization. Liz Read! Talk! 02:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
If Denzel Washington is in "African-American male actors" then he should also be in "American male actors". - correct. If we take a different case, say "Heads of state", where there isn't a male category, then he'd be in "African-American heads of State" and "American heads of state", and a black woman would be in "African-American heads of state, American heads of state, and American women heads of state". The ethnicity categories are again, generally based on wp:defining - so if a source says "X is a french writer" (even if X was born in the US to french parents and then moved to france later), then we classify them as a french writer, and perhaps as an american one as well. Rather than tearing your hair out over this, come help me get category intersection working instead which will make this all MUCH simpler.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:24, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, this was my understanding, too, when I was sorting through categories this morning but it prompted the first note in this discussion so I'm still trying to figure out what SummerPhD's complaint is and how that differed from what I was doing.
"come help me get category intersection working instead which will make this all MUCH simpler"
Point me in the right direction! I've tried suggesting changes at CfD and found a) only 1-4 people comment on my listings, b) the final decision (keep, delete, rename, merge) doesn't always reflect the opinions of the 4 people who managed to voice an opinion and c) decisions are inherently conservative (that is, if some change looks like it will have far-reaching repercussions or involve some work, it's always turned down). 02:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
CFD is inherently conservative, but they are also rather brutal in getting rid of new categories that crop up if they don't fit in. I'd suggest just participating there for a few months to get a sense of things - there are a few people who dominate the discussions and things tend to go their way, they hold a lot of sway. You will get a sense of how to craft a nomination so that it goes through, and when you should/shouldn't do a mass nomination for example. I'll send you instructions for how to test the category intersections in a bit.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:06, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Oh, that would be so useful, Obi-Wan Kenobi, thank you. I really thought I'd found my niche in finding appropriate categories for articles and standardizing them. For example, sometimes there are identical categories and one category will have 334 articles assigned to it while the other has 12. Or, there will be a parent category with 9 child categories and then 4 articles that are just assigned to the parent category...I'll see if they are better assigned to a child category.
I worked for years in a library so re/assigning categories comes from a desire to organize rather than any ideological/theoretical bias on what categories should exist. Any way, it is more satisfying working with CfD than AfD where I was less successful and always felt like I was crushing someone's work.Liz Read! Talk! 15:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
If you are that special type of person who actually enjoys categorization, then you are most welcome. For most people, it is a tedious and depressing. You can read through my deghettoization algorithm here: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force#List_of_categories_that_need_to_be_de-ghettoized - and if you understand that, you are well on your way to understanding why we should move to category intersection... :) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Depressing? No! It's bringing order to chaos, more accurate categorization helps people find what they are looking for more easily. No, what I find depressing is deleting articles or reverting people's contributions. I understand that those actions must be done (pruning away the unimportant and trivial), I just don't find that kind of work rewarding. I think it is far too easy to drive away new editors through speedy deletions and reverts.
On the other hand, dealing with categories has led me into a few unexpected conflicts (like the first comment in this thread) when I thought my decisions were pretty straight-forward. But I did recheck some of my work from early yesterday and replaced several categories that I had deleted to address her concerns.
Thanks for that link, I'm eager to read that page. It can be overwhelmingly to consider recategorizing thousands of "neutral" pages into gender appropriate categories so that the parent category can have both male and female child categories (if that is the way it's set up like for Actors and Comedians). That's the only depressing aspect I've found about categories but the work does go quicker with HotCat. However, the more I look at Categorization, the more work I see that needs to be addressed. Liz Read! Talk! 16:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 11

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that you've added some links pointing to disambiguation pages. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

James S. Levine (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)
added links pointing to Glee, Running with Scissors, Do No Harm, Raising the Bar and The New Normal

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 11:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, DPL bot. All fixed now! Liz Read! Talk! 13:01, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:Pornographic male actors

Category:Pornographic male actors, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Robofish (talk) 22:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

What? Robofish, I don't remember creating this category. I don't work on those type of articles. I was working on male actor categories this morning but it was mostly 16th-19th century actors. Please delete away, I have no objection! Liz Read! Talk! 23:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Perry Belcher

 

The article Perry Belcher has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Wikipedia policy, this newly created biography of a living person will be deleted unless it has at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article. The nominator also raised the following concern:

All biographies of living people created after March 18, 2010, must have references.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one. Tbhotch.™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 23:00, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

It looks like this is one argument I won't win, Tbhotch. I think he is a notable figure but I'm not so invested that I'm going to spend time tracking down references when I could be doing other Wikipedia work. Maybe you could just replace your redirect so the page doesn't completely disappear. Liz Read! Talk! 23:35, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Reversion

Liz, I simply couldn't resist that. Oh, and why were you writing in first person?!? I like to saw logs! (talk) 03:39, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It was a Talk Page comment, I didn't edit the article at all and the article is meant to be humorous. You had to delete the entire Talk Page comment, I thought that was frowned upon. Liz Read! Talk! 10:34, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Categorization

Happy to be of help. I can't take all the credit...or even most of it, really. I'm building a lot on the shoulders of others. I've created a very few categories, as most of them were already in place when I came along. It is tedious, yes - and I check manually for much the same reason you do (although there are ways to harness AWB's power, if you wish...not much less tedious, though.) But it's a great way to keep busy and do something productive when I need to. :-)

Keep up the good work, and happy editing! --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 21:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, some folks have been busy! I spent hours this morning on Bangladeshi male actors and all of the actresses had already been separated out.
This is the second time someone has mentioned AWB, Ser Amantio di Nicolao, so maybe I should check it out. I've been using HotCat which I've found to be very fast (better at adding and renaming categories than removing ones) but perhaps AWB is more effective.
Although it can be very repetitive and tedious, I'm find categorization work very satisfying but then I spent years working in a library and refiling books (the old days) so there is just satisfying about bringing order to disorder. I've had less success at CfD, I think every category proposal I've made hasn't gone through. I still need to understand the consensus process there.
Thanks for the reply...see you around, Ser. ;-) Liz Read! Talk! 22:12, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 11 September 2013

Talkback

 
Hello, Σ. You have new messages at Muboshgu's talk page.
Message added 10:48, 13 September 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

– Muboshgu (talk) 10:48, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Sandbox of deleted "not-notable" content

Thanks Liz for the suggestion to start by sandboxing my content that is not yet notable. I'll do that Trpeters1 (talk) 15:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Trpeters1, it's important for Editors remember that any work is recoverable unless Wikipedia Oversighters have purged it from the system (which rarely happens, usually only when private information is revealed). Just ask an Admin to "userfy" (I think that's how it's spelled) and they'll move the most recent article copy to your Sandbox. Good luck. Liz Read! Talk! 20:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Liz! Trpeters1 (talk) 15:21, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikidata weekly summary #75

 
Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week.
  • Events/Press/Blogs
  • Other Noteworthy Stuff
  • Did you know?
    • Newest properties: Saskatchewan Register of Heritage Property identifier (P845), Global Biodiversity Information Facility ID (P846), United States Navy aircraft designation (P847), Japanese military aircraft designation (P849), World Register of Marine Species identifier (P850), ESRB rating (P852), CERO rating (P853), URL (P854), Sandbox-URL (P855), official website (P856), CNKI (P857), ESPN SCRUM ID (P858), sponsor (P859), e-archiv.li ID (P860), premiershiprugby.com ID (P861), Operational Requirement of the UK Air Ministry (P862), InPhO identifier (P863), ACM Digital Library author identifier (P864), BMLO (P865), Perlentaucher (P866), ROME Occupation Code (P867), foods traditionally associated (P868), instrumentation (P870), printed by (P872), phase point (P873), UN class (P874), UN code classification (P875), UN packaging group (P876), NFPA Other (P877), avionics (P878), pennant number (P879), CPU (P880), Variable type (P881), FIPS 6-4 (US counties) (P882), FIPS 5-2 (code for US states) (P883), State Water Register Code (Russia) (P884), origin of the watercourse (P885), LIR (P886), based on heuristic (P887), JSTOR (P888), Mathematical Reviews identifier (P889), Request for Comments number (IETF) (P892), Social Science Research Network (P893)
    • Newest task forces: Occupations and professions task force
  • Development
    • Breaking change to the API in the last deployment
    • Started work on number data type
    • Worked on simple query special page
    • Worked more on moving (ordering) of qualifiers
    • Worked on JSON dumps
    • Continued working on allowing editentities API module to allow editing of claims
    • Continued work on the merge items API module
    • Worked on fixing the way Claim GUIDs are used throughout the code
    • Worked on TableDefinitionReaders for Database component
    • Unified and improved rendering of property values in summaries, diffs, wiki-pages, etc.
    • Continued moving to new browsertests framework
    • Bugfixes on autosummaries
    • Worked with GSoC student on mobile skin
    • Worked on refactoring of how we serialize and provide data about used entities on a page (e.g. entity pages or certain special pages) to the frontend
  • Open Tasks for You
Read the full report · Unsubscribe · Global message delivery 16:21, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Visits

Hahaha - there are some weird number of page watchers for my user page, I suspect forgotten visit/watch tags from people long gone quiet or off on a permananent lunch. To have actually a comment about the myrmecia (ant), is probably the first comment about my user page photo for at least a year... so it begged a reply. A bite, or an accumulative series can kill if you are allergic to bee stings. I have been bitten a few times over the last x years, so my reactions have not been of the sort to create alarm. A biology specialist at a local University counselled me seriously over the issue when I alerted him to my photos, I suspect he has had to guide medicos through people bitten and their medical issues. Interestingly the particular nest that I had photographed had a group of ants that grew accustomed to me and my camera, and did not go through the typical response of trying to rush the camera or me. I was quite devastated when the local council destroyed the nest in some roadwork activity.

User page photographs can be quite a revealing or deceptive device on the part of some users - some years ago more effort would be put imnto user boxes than actual editing, and I do remember fondly the Australian editor who never left his talk page, long diatribes about the injustices of the world, all on his talk and user page. Then eventually he went quiet and hasnt been seen again. I now know many more who have either left or are literally inactive on wp en than currently out there in the general wp editing. Enough. Thanks for your comment. sats 11:46, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Wow, now that I read that you actually took the photo, sats, I'm really impressed! I thought it was a photo you plucked out of the Commons archives. I don't think I would have gotten that close!
Re: WP activity, I have been looking at editing stats for some Editors when I come across their User Page and it's interesting to see what proportion of edits are in Articles vs. Talk Pages vs. User Talk Pages, etc. For some people, they rarely edit on Wikipedia policy/noticeboard pages and spend their time working on Articles while other folks, mostly Arbitrators and Admins, most of their edits are on Wikipedia pages or User Talk pages. Maybe people who file a RfA should be warned that they won't have time any more for article creation or tweaking.
Thanks for visiting! Liz Read! Talk! 15:11, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
IMHO - where an editor for rfa or something similar has evidence of s single skill/focus area on the edit counters, I would think there is inadequate knowledge of the workings of wikipedia. X!s Edit Counter - speaks volumes about an editors capacities - for good or for ill sats 01:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Interesting essay

I had never seen WP:POV Railroad before. Sounds a lot like my own perspective. Ignocrates (talk) 02:52, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

There are a lot of Wikipedia essays I like, Ignocrates. Another good one!
I hope you don't mind me posting a statement in your ARBCOM case. I tried to be even-handed but I had to share what I saw/read. It'll be interesting if they take this on. There is certainly an abundance of material to read through. Liz Read! Talk! 03:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
I don't mind at all. As you can see, perspectives vary greatly on this one. The vote is now 6 for acceptance, so we will see if this can be resolved by motion or if it goes to a full case. As you say, there is an abundance of material. A relevant question is, who wants to find out how deep this rabbit hole goes? They might not like what they find there. Ignocrates (talk) 03:18, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Yes, a lot of horrible, ugly words have been spoken. It won't be hard to find Diffs. Liz Read! Talk! 03:22, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi Folks, the WP:POV Railroad essay is newly created. If you have any input about it I'd love to hear your feedback and comments on the talk page there. Good luck with your ArbCom. Cheers!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Speedy delete

  Hello Liz. You tagged a page for speedy deletion, but you did not notify the article's creator that it had been so tagged. There is strong consensus that the creators of articles tagged for speedy deletion should be warned and that the person placing the tag has that responsibility. All of the major speedy deletion templates contain a pre-formatted warning for this purpose—just copy and paste to the creator's talk page. Thank you. — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 21:28, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, Cymru.lass, you are so right! I forgot to post those notices. I've only put speedy delete tags on categories/articles that I mistakenly created, not those written by others. Thank you for pointing this out to me and I'll remember to do so in the future. Liz Read! Talk! 22:11, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
No worries! If you're worried about forgetting in the future, you could always enable the Twinkle gadget in your Preferences. When you nominate an article for deletion (be it CSD, AfD or prod) using Twinkle, it automatically notifies the creator of the article! Cheers, — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 23:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Oh, that is brilliant, that it sends out notifications! I have enabled Twinkle but haven't used it much. I also hear a lot about Huggle and AWB but I haven't used them yet. Doing things the old-fashioned way, I'm sure once I figure out the tools I'll wonder why I waited so long! Liz Read! Talk! 23:17, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
I think you'll really like Twinkle! It streamlines a lot of things. Happy editing! — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 23:41, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
I've gotten a lot of mileage out of HotCat as I work with Categories a lot. Have a great weekend! ;-) Liz Read! Talk! 23:46, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Message

  Hello. You have a new message at Anna Frodesiak's talk page. Huon (talk) 00:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Santiago B. Villafania

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Santiago B. Villafania. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:59, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

"Many awards and orders categories are up for deletion"

I hope members of this WikiProject can weigh in on these discussions at CfD. - Hmmm. Yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it. But what's the incentive? As you are more than aware, the only successful communication I had was with you! Why would anyone try to have a rational conversation on that page when the major noisemaker has no understanding of, or interest in, the word "consensus", or any other POV than his own? I feel that your comment at the top of your talk page is an excellent summary of the situation.
If you wish to discuss this topic with me via email, please feel free; I have the expectation that any public discussion will lead to "tears before bedtime".
Never-the-less, despite my cynicism, I want to make it clear that I am encouraged by your reasonable and rational approach, and I am highly supportive of it. Please keep up the good work - far too many editors are, like me, throwing their hands up in the air and thinking that trying to have a half-way "normal" conversation is just too much effort. Best wishes, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:05, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

You sound weary of debate, Pdfpdf. There is more than one Editor participating at CfD and it is Admins who determine the consensus view of a discussion at CfD. I actually had a similar question to yours and went to Admins to see how they arrive at it and close a discussion. Here is one response that I found helpful.
For good or bad, the answers you receive can depend on whom you choose to ask and some Editors are open and forthcoming in explaining the process while others provide answers that are less satisfying. If you strike out with one, I recommend asking another active participant in whichever area of WP you are focusing on, whether it is on an article Talk Page, noticeboard, WikiProject or policy page. I've also had luck at the Teahouse and the Help Desk...Editors working at these places volunteer to track down answers to questions. And those Editors who are welcoming and generous in explaining procedures and processes? I have them on my Wikipedia speed-dial!
If there are further discussions about these matters, I'll keep you posted and invite you to participate. I think the views of both those who are very experienced and those who are new to a decision process should be heard...from the former, you hear the voice of experience and from the latter, you learn what is confusing or unclear.
Thanks for posting! Liz Read! Talk! 13:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Liz. I'm glad that people like you are still around. Unfortunately, in my 6 years of experience of WP, I have discovered that people like you are few. And far between. (And yes, they are all on my speed-dial!) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 14:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, Pdfpdf, although I first created an account in 2007, I only edited sporadically, mainly as an IP, until recently. So, while I'm trying to get wiser about the way things work here at WP, I still believe that positive change can happen if one gets sufficient support from others.
As a lone voice, you can be mislabeled as "disruptive" but if a group of Editors voices their support for a proposal, even if it fails to sway the majority, at least their voice is heard and a position can no longer be judged as "trivial" or "subjective". Maybe it's because my training is in sociology but I've seen change happen when allies work together where if it was just a solitary person, he or she would be hitting his or her head against a brick wall.
And because our cultures and social mores change, that means consensus changes, too....not in an "end of Western civilization" way but in a progressive way of improving our understanding of the world and each other. Well, that's my hope any way. ;-) Liz Read! Talk! 19:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


September 2013

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  • [http://jewishjumpstart.org/about Jumpstart website]]

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Whisperback

  Hello. You have a new message at Kudpung's talk page. 14:20, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Ireland

Are you Irish? Sorry for the question, feel free to not reply if you don't want to. Miss Bono [hello, hello!] 15:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm partly Irish. My brother is there right now, in County Tipperary, tracking down distant relatives. But like most Americans, my ancestry is a mixture of cultures. Why do you ask? Liz Read! Talk! 15:16, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Just because I saw your post at the WP Ireland talk page and just curiosity, I admire Irish people :D Miss Bono [hello, hello!] 15:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Wow, Miss Bono, I just noticed your userbox page! Very impressive! I might use some of those. Liz Read! Talk! 15:42, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Go ahead and use them :D If oyu need one in particular just let me know and I'll be glad to do it or teach you how to do them by yourself. Miss Bono [hello, hello!] 15:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Here are two of my favorites! Liz Read! Talk! 15:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Userboxes in Userboxes!This user has userboxes in their userboxes!
Mmm, userboxes This user thinks that more Wikipedians would like userboxes if they were edible.




What do you want me to do? Miss Bono [hello, hello!] 15:59, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, nothing comes to mind at the moment! I'll let you know if I come up with any good ideas. Thanks for the offer! Liz Read! Talk! 16:36, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
ok, No problem. Miss Bono [hello, hello!] 16:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Categories on "Africanization"

Greetings, You deleted Category:Human names from Africanization. I've responded with a comment and request for feedback at Talk:Africanization#Categories. TIA.--A12n (talk) 07:21, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

A12n, I removed all culture-based name articles from Category:Human names which contains articles about aspects of naming for human beings. Since Africanization concerns place names, I thought it was inappropriate to be included in this category which includes more abstract articles about human names such as Religious name, Patronymic and Personal name. Liz Read! Talk! 12:06, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. Not arguing with your choice wrt this particular category, but for clarification, "Africanization" has been used as I understand it for personal names as well as place names - and beyond that to the staff composition of civil services following independence). That's a fairly wide usage, but observed and described in these contexts as Africanization. I reordered some of the page content under various headings which may make that clearer. Would defer to your judgement on catting but feel it's appropriate to somehow account for this range of usage.--A12n (talk) 13:12, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
A12n, this sounds like a topic that is worth its own separate article, on Africanization of personal names. I'll look at the reordered article, as I might have missed this mention. Thank for addressing my concern! Liz Read! Talk! 15:47, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Hey you! respect my article! (Aeolus planet)

Hey you! Can not put this article in the elimination just because you think he is an essay that was made or invented in one day! I spent two months researching to write. I put the references and they are accurate. Learn to read in Italian and buy the book indicated to confirm. Hey I'm very upset with you administrators of wikipedia. I do an article, someone comes along and wants to eliminate. I modify the article then comes another unhappy and complains saying the change I made became Article inappropriate. You need to set parameters! This time I will not accept! I researched a lot and I did not invent anything that is written. Respect! Respect my work! You use parameters defined by wikipedia, but judge subjectively, as if they knew or were all, like doctors experts on the subject! There are dozens of articles like this scattered throughout wikipedia worldwide! see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theia_ (planet) # Theia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_ (hypothetical_planet)

http://wikipedia.qwika.com/it2en/X-Proserpina_ (astrology)

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Proserpina

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyche_ (planet)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyche_(Planet)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpluto

Now please stop me miserable, as do the other and go do something more productive! Will read about astronomy and the theory of hypothetical planets!

Ad Astra2013 AdAstra2013 (talk) 00:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC) 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by AdAstra2013 (talk • contribs) 00:21, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I placed the tag, AdAstra2013, because the article appeared to be your own original research. You are free to contest the deletion and improve the referencing to support your work.
By the way, this is English Wikipedia and knowing Italian shouldn't be a prerequisite for understanding an article. As for similar articles appearing on Wikipedias in other languages, I only participate on en.wiki so I won't pass judgments on decisions made there. Liz Read! Talk! 10:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

2º epistemological round

Yeah, but either way , but should pay attention to the fact that in other wikipedias World , there are articles like this. This demonstrates quality standard and level things . FACT there are items in any other part of wikipedia dealing on the subject , it is prerequisite to validate the article , and you have the least notion of erroneous assessment has committed. Should pay attention to the fact that we live in a cosmopolitan world , and if you think that is inserted into it , have to be aware of things happening around you and that are documented as such in one language into another. Act contrary to it , only makes clear how limited is your horizon . Must answer three questions before judging my article :

I understand and know deeply astrology?

I understand and know deeply astronomy ?

The subject of this article is that a fact? Yes , because there is a lot of intellectual and physical events that support it.

You do not know Italian, but should have a minimum of epistemological understanding to judge information , and knowledge sharing . especially those in areas of knowledge that you do not know .

I can not go beyond what I have written in the article. Add more information would THEN write an essay and my interest is just PRESENTED facts . You should know that quantity is not quality , and that there are small items that say it all and are perfect , and while there are plenty of those who are confused a drug . This article reached your limit of information , as I said , anything will make him a trial . So be content . Around the world millions of people are interested in astrology and astronomy. But as you yourself made ​​it clear , do not know Italian and even have money to import the books that talk about the subject of the article . Because of this this article becomes the primary source for the subject . From it , anyone who speaks English , have knowledge of aa theory presented . Will know that there is a theory of a certain hypothetical planet , as well as other wikipedia is filled with articles on many different theories. And so the person can seek ways to enhance your knowledge on the subject . You, but what anyone else should have in mind that wikipedia is basic and quick source of information for many who do not otherwise have access . And remove my article is to deny people who like astrology and astronomy, in South Africa , Korea , Angola and even in the USA there is information about the fact .

Now you would like , please let me know to whom I look for , that is above you , to solve this problem . I want to know who will finish judging this issue and want to talk to him . Because from what I am seeing , it does not matter to you what will happen to my article .

AdAstra2013 AdAstra2013 (talk) 16:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

First, AdAstra2013, I don't understand much of what you've written. A lot of it is because I can not decipher what you are saying based on your use of English. So, I can not begin to answer all of the questions you seem to be asking.
Second, I simply put a tag on your article suggesting it did not meet Wikipedia standards. You can contest this judgment and defend your article but NOT HERE on my Talk Page. I will have no further involvement with your article and will not take any additional actions about it so it is not me that you have to convince. To reiterate, I placed a tag on your article and I've moved on to work on other articles. I have no interest in researching your article and continuing to post on my Talk Page will have no positive effect on the condition of your article since I will not be taking any further action on it. An appropriate place to talk about the state of the article is on the article's Talk Page (Talk:Aeolus_(planet)).
Finally, I recommend you read, thoroughly, "Creating article in wikipedia" which provides some guidelines on what is expected from articles on Wikipedia. Also, as the tag says,

"If you can address this concern by improving, copyediting, sourcing, renaming or merging the page, please edit this page and do so. You may remove this message if you improve the article or otherwise object to deletion for any reason. Although not required, you are encouraged to explain why you object to the deletion, either in your edit summary or on the talk page. If this template is removed, do not replace it."

Good luck with your work! Liz Read! Talk! 17:00, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


Great.

I know I will not make any difference post here. Cause the only cpisa you even know to do is tweak articles without prior knowledge for disposal. Still, thank you, you answered what I wanted. Furthermore, I will not worry about writing well in English for someone who has little knowledge and epistemological general.

Thanks genius! AdAstra2013 AdAstra2013 (talk) 16:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

AdAstra2013, we don't own any of the articles we create or otherwise contribute to here at Wikipedia; see WP:Own. Flyer22 (talk) 16:20, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Ebionites 3 arbitration case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ebionites 3. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ebionites 3/Evidence. Please add your evidence by October 1, 2013, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ebionites 3/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, Callanecc. Liz Read! Talk! 10:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I saw your note to the clerk, so I wanted you to know I'm finished presenting my evidence. Although I preserve the option make changes in the next 10 days, it's essentially complete. As you said yourself, for me it's all about the content. Beyond that, I can't discuss the specifics of the case. However, while arbitration is not to be taken lightly, it also presents a rare opportunity. If you have something to contribute that you think will help the encyclopedia, particularly the long-term health of the encyclopedia, please have at it. Ignocrates (talk) 22:57, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Ignocrates, I'm not sure about the mysterious "I can't discuss the specifics of the case" but I think I got pretty up-to-speed over the summer on the current state of this debate. My point to Callanecc was that the only evidence I could supply would concern incivility since the conversation about the history of articles and reliable sources is beyond my expertise. But I saw plenty of violations of AGF and NPA. But since you say this ARBCOM case is about content, then I'll just let the statement I made stand.
But it is nice to hear from you, Ignocrates. I hope your case gets a fair hearing. It is a lot to sort through! Liz Read! Talk! 23:49, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
P.S. Sorry to see that Ret.Prof deleted his account.
Just for purposes of clarification, ArbCom addressed only matters of conduct, not content. There have been repeated calls over the years for a content committee, but to date none such exist, and ArbCom most certainly is not it. It would be possible for ArbCom to in this case, as they have others in the past, request that the community make some effort to address content-related matters. When they do that, they tend to make the specific request of clarification or development of guidelines, and only once in a great while, like with one of the Macedonia arbitrations, call for respected editors independent of the case to offer a short term resolution of a content related dispute. And, honestly, I find the remarkably self-serving "it's all about content" line completely ridiculous, unless that refers to perhaps using content to advance a position. If it had been all about content, he wouldn't react as he has to me, In ictu oculi, and to an extent PiCo, when they propose changes which would make the content more consistent with policies and guidelines. Ignocrates has rather a long history of self-serving comments, though, and I guess that it would be more of a surprise to see that change than not to. John Carter (talk) 00:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
More incivility and personal attacks, John Carter. I find it baffling that you can't see it despite many people pointing out your continued negativity towards Ignocrates and how over-the-top it is. You make so many worthwhile contributions but this is a huge, enormous blind spot.
But ultimately, it doesn't matter what you, I or Ignocrates thinks, it'll be a team of Arbitrators sorting through all of the Diffs, passing judgment and coming up with solutions to this impasse. As I said to Ignocrates but I hope the case gets a fair hearing. Liz Read! Talk! 00:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
By "I can't discuss the specifics of the case", I only meant that I didn't want to bias your presentation of evidence in any way. Cheers. Ignocrates (talk) 01:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough, Ignocrates. I thought it was due to some oath you had taken. ;-) Liz Read! Talk! 01:36, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 18 September 2013

Grammar

No, it wasn't you. I wasn't sure if it should be Liz' or Liz's or some other grammar style that I'm unaware of.--v/r - TP 19:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

LOL! You know, technically, TP, "Liz'" is probably grammatically correct but I've only seen people use "Liz's" so that's I'm used to. Liz Read! Talk! 20:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
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