Template talk:Village pump page header

Old discussions

Newsect2 template

I've put it back to the version not using the new section template because of it was still going over the 5 template limit on some pages (it uses that template in the header of each page too). May as well have all of them as the non-template version rather than half and half. violet/riga (t) 23:09, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Category

I've removed the Category:Wikipedia village pump link from this because people were using it on non-Pump pages (like user pages. Will add the category to each pump page itself. -- Netoholic @ 07:26, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

Use on user pages

Many people were using this template on their user pages, but with the recent changes to this template, it now looks like s**t on said pages. Why couldn't a new template be devised rather than changing this one? — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work} 02:27, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

What about this new image, which has no background?

-- SoothingR^(pour) 22:15, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

---

Shortcut

The new third parameter allows to specify the shortcut, same idea as for guidelines, policies, etc., see Wikipedia header templates. Qif magic for the shortcut is apparently unnecessary, the template is (almost) only included on Village Pump sections, and they all have WP:VPx shortcuts.

Joining the nav nox with the lead table could make sense for very long intro texts, but that's not the case, floating with the ToC is IMHO better. Omniplex  12:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

For legacy browsers some padding / spacing helps to separate the 2nd row (= 2nd parameter) from the last row (= sig and posting info), and to separate the left column (= text) from the right column (= shortcut). {{Lorem Ipsum}} was unrealistic for VP section intro texts (= 2nd parameter), I replaced it by {{Lorem}}. Omniplex  13:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted you. In both browsers I've tried it in (Firefox 1.5 and Internet Explorer 7.0) the shortcut box is aligned to the right with some padding around it. Which browser are you using that has the shortcut box in the wrong location? —Locke Cole • t • c 04:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I've added a colon to your comment because I didn't see it... ;-) I use an old mozilla 3, CSS has zero effect with this monster. Stuff like align= works under certain conditions. If the cell padding / spacing is too big for your browser simply shrink it, but not to zero. Or overwrite it with CSS, then you get the CSS version, and I get the legacy version. The archive link is a PITA on the talk pages, maybe a Qif-talk link would be better, but I'm not yet sure how to do this, {{Sif}} or similar. Omniplex  04:35, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Ick.. you use this on purpose? =) It might be possible to detect the current namespace and omit the archive link on talk pages (AzaToth probably has a quick idea for that if you want to ask him). But seriously, unless you're using a 386/486 I think you should be able to use Firefox or IE 6.x (obviously I don't know your situation so maybe you are using a 386/486 or some odd hardware setup that doesn't support FF/IE) and then the whole issue would be kind of moot. =)

In any event, I've self reverted for now. Ping AzaToth if you want to try and get the archive link worked out (unless you want to investigate that yourself of course). =) And sorry for not indenting my reply, don't know how I forgot that. :( —Locke Cole • t • c 05:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Missing colon: that was a critical race, you did your rv magic before documenting it, I added the talk shortcuts at the same time, and my comment here (see below) came before your comment, therefore I missed it... ;-) Yes, I'm using the monster mozilla on purpose, OS/2 Warp 3 isn't tested with FF, and 2 GB isn't my RAM but the complete harddisk space. That's why I was so pissed by the WP:AUM war, WP:HIDE has simply no effect for me. Omniplex  07:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, you weren't the only one pissed off about WP:AUM. It's rejected at least now, and most people (yourself included I see) seem to agree WP:HIDE is an overall bad idea. =) I don't know if you've seen it, but take a look at User:Locke Cole/Don't use hiddenStructure. =) —Locke Cole • t • c 10:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

You could add Template talk:See#Caveats to your collection of ugly effects - inline PNGs are somewhat pointless for really old or text mode browsers <gd&r> Omniplex  13:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Archive

If you clicked on one of the archive links on the Template:Village pump page header(edit talk links history) page you're redirected to this page with the documentation & discussion of the template. I've created a mainly pointless {{R to documentation}} for this purpose. Omniplex  20:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The archive link is certainly ugly on talk pages, because it doesn't work there. But the shortcuts [[WT:VPx]] are okay now, I'll add them to Wikipedia:Shortcuts to talk pages. Omniplex  04:07, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that works now, I didn't know that {{ns:Project}}:x results in Wikipedia:x, or that anybody uses this template on other projects. Because I don't "see" inline PNGs (unless I click on them) or CSS colours I can only hope that Locke Cole got this right. As far as I'm concerned the right column needs no colours, and I certainly won't start any <font color="tricks"> ;-) Omniplex  09:52, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

See Help:Variable for a list of MediaWiki variables. =) As for it's use on other projects/languages, it happens from time to time and little pre-emptive measures like this can make life easier on those copying/pasting it. =) (Of course it's doubtful they call their archive an "Archive", but it's one less thing to change). Agreed on the colors. —Locke Cole • t • c 10:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Explanations for Gennaro

Some issues: Apparently you tried to replace aling="center" and similar constructs by style="text-align: center". That's pointless, for modern browsers there's no difference, for old browsers it breaks the alignment. Very critical for left+right, old browsers take this as hint to start floating left+right. Just leave it as it is, and try your CSS magic on top of it: Modern browsers will ignore the legacy markup if there's better (real or wannabe) CSS. Old browsers never see the CSS.

I tried to repair it, but there were at least four critical (wrt backwards compatibility) changes. Please try it in smaller steps if possible. The <hr /> worked, but IMO it's kind of ugly. For anything you did only with CSS I can't judge it, just reinsert it if it was fine from your POV. Maybe say which problem you're trying to solve. Extremely long section titles in the ToC by chance? -- Omniplex 09:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Added Tnavbar

align=right| {{navbar|Template:Villagepumppages}} which created:

Ikip (talk) 21:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Link to persisten proposals

The template links to Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Persistent proposals but since it's not been edited since early 2009 shouldn't the link be removed ? Cenarium (talk) 15:09, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Changed look of the brown header

Yesterday changed the look of the VP's page headers template. As it was sandboxed & testpaged, the notes were there. So now I'll just copy & quote my notes from there, to save them fomr the tespage. (of course, talk should be here next time). -DePiep (talk) 12:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Notes

• Talk central here Template talk:Village pump page header/sandbox please.
• Some links may lead to non-sandbox places, please be ware.
• Used principles:

- See Help:Color for the colorschemes of the main page etc., there's a pattern

- Colored tables start with a dark colored titlebar (header)

- Sub-titles get the medium-dark color

- Bordercolor of a block is the background color of the one-step-darker block

- Similar text go together

• What is changed?

- Title is now in top row: Village pump policy

- Repositioned the link "(New) post" near similar links

- Top row (header) has the darkest color

- Sub-heading rows (navigation) have the medium-light color

- border-color rule as read above (1 step darker)

- The 4th row, where the title was (sic), is deleted.

• Wat is unchanged:

- All options & links unchanged

- All params / variables unchanged (no change needed at the calling VP-pages)

- Texts unchanged (moved only)

- Background colors: the same color number

-DePiep (talk) 17:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC) Edits -DePiep (talk) 08:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Reordering

Thumbs up from me to the restoration of the old tab order here. :) I've long preferred it, as it puts the village pumps more in order of priority, in my opinion. (When I read the VP, I have been going to the Wikipedia:Village pump page rather than using the tabs, since it stayed in the original order there.) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:53, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

An editor reverted, and I've re-reverted, because: It is based on another sequence: that at Template:Village pump, which has years of stable precedent, in that order. –Quiddity (talk) 22:55, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

re You both: "in order of priority, in my opinion" is not an argument, it is your preference at best (or a hobby, more likely). Also: "sequence: that at Template:Village pump" is self-serving. Of course we should put them alphabeticalay at WP:VP too -- I have not read arguments against. You both together have not given one single argument for the random sequence, except for 'habit'. By the way, Mrg, this 'old tab order' you cling to is one month old: [1]. Guess who introduced it. -DePiep (talk) 00:05, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

"hobby"? I'm not sure what that means.

I seen no reason to overturn the precedent, beyond idon'tlikeit.

I would guess that the existing order is based on age-of-original-creation, mixed with likely-relevance-to-searchers, mixed with raw-activity-levels, mixed with seriousness-of-ramifications-for-decisions-made-within.

But to find out for sure, we'd have to examine the years of (scattered/relevant) talkpage archives and page-history-edit-summaries, and/or ask. Template talk:Village pump and Wikipedia talk:Village pump are thataway. –Quiddity (talk) 00:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Hobby is an entry here at WP; nothing to add. Next you 'guess' five mixes. The onus is not on me to base the earlier sequence. Plain simple: why do you want that earlier one? Again I got not one argument. -DePiep (talk) 02:07, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

So, you wrote, "Of course we should put them alphabeticalay at WP:VP too",

Yes, of course we should make them match, that is a good reason/argument!

You also wrote, "The onus is not on me to base the earlier sequence".

If you want to change a years-long precedent, (to make the templates match each other, which is the main reason I reverted), then it is polite and often useful, to at least try to understand why the precedent exists, first. You have assumed (you wrote at least) that it is "random" - hence I offered some possible reasons as to why it is in that particular order.

Best wishes, –Quiddity (talk) 02:28, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you even wrote five possibilities. Am I supposed to find the real one? My handsome rule is: if there is not logical sequence, use the alphabet. You, otoh, still keep pointing to a (possible) early habit or coincidence (or, five actually). And I am right to say: if you have no logic for the current sequence, it is correct to change all pages (i.e., the page WP:VP) consistently. My same logic for all pages. What could be wromg with that?

Now since you have no argument with content, I propose to set the sequence alphabetically. -DePiep (talk)

This template should match the other template. We agree on that.

I propose that a notification be left at Template talk:Village pump informing them of this discussion; or a fresh discussion started there. I will make that post if you insist, but you will not like the way I phrase it; therefor I'm trying to give you the opportunity and motivation to go make it yourself, and have the first-poster advantage.

"Am I supposed to find the real one" - No, but you are supposed to be curious. And you should not assume that a system is "random", simply because you don't recognize a pattern behind it. –Quiddity (talk) 05:53, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Missing FAQ at VPT

I've recently noticed that the FAQ section is missing from WP:VPT. I've traced it to this edit. DePiep, why do you believe that it is an "idle row"? --Redrose64 (talk) 09:42, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

As beliefs go: by mistake. Restored. -DePiep (talk) 10:05, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you --Redrose64 (talk) 10:08, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Nav links

What is the removal of the nav links: First discussion, End of page and New post? "keyboards have a button called "End"" isn't a good solution for tablets. --  Gadget850 ^talk 22:27, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Not sure. My cell phone/mobile device doesn't have a button called "End" either. Support restoring the links. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 02:13, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

How do you handle a talkpage then? -DePiep (talk) 02:39, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't edit from mobile, but I do read. --  Gadget850 ^talk 13:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposed addition

See Special:Permalink/636583967

Adding a home icon to the splash page. Any views? --Mrjulesd (talk) 22:29, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Needs alt text for accessibility. Are we using pure icons for navigation elsewhere? --  Gadget850 ^talk 23:29, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

There's nothing there. Why link to it? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 23:34, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Why is the proposed version stuffed into a talk page thread, and not sandboxed? See WP:TESTCASES. --Redrose64 (talk) 01:04, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments.

@Redrose64 moved to the sandbox as suggested. Any comments on the proposal?

@Gadget850 you're right, alt text would be needed. I haven't any other proposals for pure icons, and the icon could be replaced with text if felt better. Would this be preferable?

@Edokter I agree with you to some extent, for experienced people such as yourself it doesn't link to anything particularly significant. But I don't think this is the case for newcomers, as I feel they may well find it helpful. Also, I feel that WP:Village pump acts as a home page for the Village Pump, and the ability to link back to it from the other pages is preferable, from a good UI point-of-view. The only way I am aware of doing it at present is to manipulate the URL. --Mrjulesd (talk) 01:52, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Now we can see exactly what the proposed change really is. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:53, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

OK I think that's most comments, thanks for them. Decision: not to proceed without greater consensus. --Mrjulesd (talk) 17:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Languages

Why does this template show text in different languages? GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 23:41, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

@GeoffreyT2000: This looks odd but is deliberate; you are seeing the output of the {{Lorem ipsum}} template. This is placeholder text which is replaced by real text when the template is used at each of the village pump pages such as Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). -- John of Reading (talk) 06:29, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Add links "up" and (All)

I have just updated the sandbox and added links to the main VP page and also to the (All) page. Thoughts? — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 16:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Set the sandbox back to show the "up" and "all" menu. — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 14:44, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

2 search forms on one line. Will wrap to 2 lines on narrower screens

Method is described here:

• Help:Table#Side by side tables.

Narrow your browser window to see the 2 search forms go from one line to two. On narrower screens they start off on 2 lines. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:38, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Standard color scheme

I realize that this is just a personal irritation, but would anybody object to changing the background colors for this template so that they match the standard colors in Help:Using colours? I don't really care which ones, just so long as it's not "unique".

In case it's helpful, here are the colors being used:

Light "off" tabs
#FFFAEA

Main color
#EEE9D9

Border
#BFB1A3

Compare those to something like this from the standard options:

Light "off" tabs
#FFFBE6

Main color
#F2ECCE

Border
#BFBAA3

If we wanted to do something really radical and lighten the whole scheme, we could switch to these (same colors, shifted one column):

Light "off" tabs
#FFFDF5

Main color
#FFFBE6

Border
#F2ECCE

or switch to blue (our predominant color):

Light "off" tabs
#E6F2FF

Main color
#CEE0F2

Border
#A3B1BF

What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:44, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Here's a demo for suggested combinations: Template:Village pump page header/testcases#Demo 2023-08. It uses new parameters added to the sandbox. —⁠andrybak (talk) 23:01, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for making that, @Andrybak. I added a "blue but lighten" option. In the beige-ish category, I think the existing (custom) cream and the standard cream colors are nearly indistinguishable, and therefore we could switch to the standard color without anyone noticing or caring. For overall effect, I think I slightly prefer the lighter two options, but I'm not sure that the borders on them are dark enough (especially around the tabs). What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The variant "from the standard options" looks a bit like {{Tmbox}}, but {{Tmbox}} actually uses  #f8eaba  as background (defined in Module:Message box/tmbox.css). And #f8eaba isn't in the table Help:Using colours. —⁠andrybak (talk) 23:07, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Talk page templates use "coffee roll", selected in a discussion almost 20 years ago (=when MonoBook was the new skin). I'd also be happy to change that (aiming for slightly lighter color/higher contrast, because it feels dark when there's a lot of banners at the top of a talk page, and higher contrast improves accessibility). However, that would affect a h-u-g-e number of pages, and I think it would need a lot more planning. They tell us Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance, but when a change affects more than two million pages, we really wouldn't want the usual "Aaaagggghhhh, they changed it! Change it back right now!" response. If we get a backlash on this one, it's sort of unfortunate, but it only affects 23 pages. The effect on the servers would be basically unnoticeable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:39, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I think changing to the row of colors starting with #FFFBE6 is reasonable, since they are nearly identical to the old colors and would be uncontroversial. Any other color changes besides that should probably be done in a follow up. Low hanging fruit first, imo. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:51, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Moxy, I remember you knowing something about W3C contrast ratios. Do you have any concerns about this? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:07, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

looks good Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Colors Moxy- 12:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I support the triple #FFFBE6 #F2ECCE #BFBAA3 "from the standard options" as well. These colors look more consistent between each other than the current live colors. —⁠andrybak (talk) 21:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Since nobody here seems to object, I've made this change. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:34, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Glad to see I'm not crazy for thinking the color changed. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 03:33, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Someone noticed! We had a noticeable impact on the world! Well, okay, on one person. But still. ;-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:04, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Recent image addition

This doubles the height of the header at high browser zooms. Is everyone ok with this? I'm a little against it, but not enough to revert unilaterally. Thanks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I've removed it again for now. The table is an accessibility problem, the page became impossible on mobile again and the search fields didn't clear the image. If people really want it back, I'll see if I can add it in a better way tonight or on Sunday. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:53, 10 November 2023 (UTC)