Template talk:User cnr-4

Boris, please do not change this template again. 22% of citizens of Montenegro declared Montenegrin as their native language and you cannot tell to people which language they speak and which they do not. It is their right to choose and their right only. PANONIAN (talk) 12:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

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I notice a couple of errors in this template (which likely appear in templates for other levels). First, it actually says "This member fluently speaks Montenegrin". Wikipedia is not a political party, it has no members but users, and term "user" is used on other language templates, and even in the name of this template, so I will change that. Second, it uses word "zbori" which is sinonymous to the word "govori", but is much less used in Montenegro - compare [1] and [2]. I will change that too. Nikola 08:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Template:User cg-0 used form "Ovi učesnik". First, it used word "Ovi" to mean "this" instead of "ovaj", which is neither in accordance with other templates, nor used in Montenegro - compare [3] and [4] so I changed it. Second, "učesnik" means "participant", so I changed that. Nikola 08:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Here we go again... A Serb knows Montenegrin better that the Montenegrins themselves.

Apparently... Nikola

Firstly, the 'translation issue', Do we translate the term user literally, like it is done in Serbian or translate the meaning, like in Croatian. User is used in English language for historical reasons, coming from slang and as such it is a misnomer even in that language.

Wrong[5]. The word is used in, for example, the Proceedings and Debates of the Constitutional Convention of the State of New York, in 1868. Not a single dictionary I consulted states that user is a neologism. Nikola

I thought it was obvious I referred to the usage of the 'user' in the context of www.Momisan 14:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No, you haven't. There is no way context of www could fit in the sentence you wrote. Nikola 15:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Suradnik/saradnik, is probably the closest term in Serbo/Croatian to the real meaning of user,

No it isn't[6]. This on-line dictionary offers korisnik as a translation, but doesn't mention saradnik at all. Nikola

In Wikipedia context, yes. And you know it.Momisan 14:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Especially in Wikipedia context, no. Any Wikipedia user, not just registered members, associates, editors, can edit Wikipedia; everyone who uses Wikipedia - every Wikipedia user - can edit it, and that is the whole point. Nikola 15:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

korisnik is simply a rape of our beautiful language, which only a complete bukvalac could come up with. Montenegrin doesn't have a separate word for it.

Yes it does[7]. Nikola

član is not used only for members of political parties, Any group of people is composed of člans or members in english. For me, it is the neatest translation of them all, but, suradnik/saradnik is also acceptable. As for the rest, Montenegrins use ovi/oni for ovaj/onaj and zbori for govori. It is widely spoken and true-blue Montenegrin, and if you are really keen to learn, I am sure you will find it in the books written in Montenegrin vernacular like Gorski Vijenac, Primjeri Cojstva i Junastva, Smrt Smail Age Cengica, King Nicholas' memoires etc.

Wrong[8]. Njegos used ovaj exclusively, even in the first line of the Mountain Wreath: Нек' се овай віекъ горди надъ свіема вѣковима!. He also used both zbori and govori: Мићуновићъ и збори и твори!/Србкиня га іоштъ рађала ніе but Вукъ Мандушићъ говори, као на яви. From the fact that you don't even know what's in the first line of the Mountain Wreath, I conclude that you haven't read it. It is then dishonest of you to recommend others to read it. Even if this would not be the case, Montenegrins much more oftenly speak ovaj and govori today. Nikola

Are you denying that Ovi is used in the books I mentioned? All you are saying is that ovaj is also used.Momisan 14:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. In the Mountain Wreath, which is the only book of those you mentioned available in its original orthography, Njegos did use ovi exactly once, and then in the meaning "these ones"; I couldn't find that he used ovi to mean "this one" at all. Nikola 15:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

What you are referring to is Serbian language, not Montenegrin, currently (sadly) still official in Montenegro. Not for long, though. I can only quote PANONIAN: "you cannot tell to people which language they speak and which they do not. It is their right to choose and their right only." Leave this to the native speakers.Momisan 11:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

However, it turns out that it is you who are imposing on people language they don't speak and words they don't use. So, step back, please. Nikola 11:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I am just speaking Montenegrin, not Serbo-Croatian. And, the template is, to remind you, in Montenegrin.Momisan 14:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No, you are speaking Serbian which you call Montenegrin. And your version of the template may or may not be in your idiolect, but this template is not for you alone. Nikola 15:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No, its not for me alone, of course, however, native Montenegrin speakers should decide about the text. You are simply not qualified to discuss it, period.Momisan 12:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

And you, who haven't even read the Mountain Wreath, are? Please. Nikola 09:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, it took a bit of diggin', but, you asked for it! This is how Njegos talked: "Dobra vi sreca", taken from the book ["Pisma iz Italije" (Letters from Italy) written by the Serb Ljuba Nenadović. Educate yourself: [9] and [10]. Now, just don't tell me that vi (3rd case/padez) is not the same as Ovi (1st case/padez).Momisan 04:47, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

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Nikola - most Montenegrins (nearly all) speak the Serbian language. That's why that which you mentioned is used more often - however, in Old Montenegroo, a part of the populace (135,000 people totally) speak the Montenegrin language; which has its own standards. Therefor, this should not be similar to the main Montenegrin speech, but to the Croat-similar archaic-linguistic minority. Do you understand? The only problem that we have discussing this is the fact that this language hasn't been really formed yet. --PaxEquilibrium 19:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, we are going good cop, bad cop now :-) Pax, you at least are trying to understand, thanks for the open mind. However, the language is very much formed, it has been formed and almost unchanged since middle-ages, unlike Serbian, as you know. That is just a digression, my point is that the template uses the term 'speak'. I just wrote the sentence the way it is spoken by people that speak Montenegrin (not Serbo-Croatian, Montenegrin). OK. '"Ovi" is a bit archaic, however, it IS still spoken quite a lot. Nikola, my friend, cool down. Open your mind and you might even learn something.Momisan 14:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Montenegrin language doesn't have its own standards. There is no dictionary of Montenegrin language nor grammar of Montenegrin language for which it is universally accepted that it is a grammar of Montenegrin language. Some people who claim to speak Montenegrin language speak one dialect, other people who also claim to speak Montenegrin language speak some other dialect. The best we could do is to make the template according to the way people speak in Montenegro. I don't doubt that a number of people use ovi, but they are a tiny minority. Population of Montenegro is some 600,000, so if some 20% of it would use the words, it would show. However, the words appear to be used less than 1% than the alternatives - we can conclude that the population which declared themselves as Montenegrin speakers doesn't use them. Nikola 15:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your statements in some of the points in general, surprisingly. It would be interesting to see some data about the geographic distribution of Montenegrin language speakers (I am talking about those 100 000 "lost souls"). The only thing that really puzzles me is this: How would you know? Have you ever lived in Montenegro? Is any of your parents Montenegrin? In short, what qualifies you to talk about this language at all? Feel free to answer in your mother tongue. Momisan 12:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Sapnula mi pticica... Nikola

Basically, nothing apart from your bigotry, correct?Momisan 04:47, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Momisan - well, you gotta be Montenegrin (not referring to nationality) to understand Montenegrin (not referring to the language). :D :) The "Battle for Montenegro" (and thus the language) still lasts, however what Nikola fails to see is that over a hundred thousand people speak this language. A Grammar is written. By a Croatian-Montenegrin linguist by the name of Nikola Vukcevic. And no, the Montenegrin language isn't yet standardized (I'm referring to political status). --PaxEquilibrium 13:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Ahh I meant Vojislav Nikcevic (damn those similar names!) --PaxEquilibrium 13:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

A hundred thousand people claim to speak the language called Montenegrin. How would that language really look like - we don't have a clue. Nikcevic's grammar is not universally accepted even among people who claim to speak Montenegrin, not to mention that there are numerous criticisms of it from purely scientific standpoint. Nikola 20:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Well we'll just have to wait then, won't we? --PaxEquilibrium 21:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I just cited quite a few books written in that "elusive" language. If you don't have aclue what it is, what made you rate yourself as a fluent speaker? Anyway, back to the topic of discussion: Ovi or Ovaj. As provided already sopmewhere above, for people who can't be bother searching, this is the proof that Ovi is Montenegrin, as spoken by Njegos himself (even passed the Serbian editors :-) This is how Njegos talked: Dobra vi sreca, taken from the book ["Pisma iz Italije" (Letters from Italy) written by the Serb Ljuba Nenadović. Educate yourself: [11] and [12] Momisan 04:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Well? If Njegos used vi once in a casual conversation but vam a dozen times in his masterpiece, why should vi be preferred? And, we are still talking about how Montenegrins talk today, not about how some of them might have talked a century ago. Nikola 08:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Accroding to the experimental Montenegrowiki [13], on the login screen, instead of "korisnik", it says "suardnik". So there, say goodbye to korisnik and hello to suradnik. This is official Montenegrin being used on that wiki. So deal with it. Momisan, begin changing those templates and instead of korisnik, put suradnik. Besides, isn;t the Montenegrin language supposed to be more closer to the Croatian language than the Serbian, even though, they both are comparibly close. --Crna Gora 03:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it says saradnik. --PaxEquilibrium 17:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I realised my mistake and found out it was saradnik the next day from my post. --Crna Gora 01:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I suggest a compromise solution, the word Korisnik, which is a translation of user. If not, only rename suradnik in saradnik. Cheers.Sideshow Bob 02:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I suggested that in the first place. --PaxEquilibrium 22:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)