Template talk:Pittsburgh universities

pittsburgh does not = all of swpa, this needs to be cleaned up

Definition of Colleges/Universities

Surely the Pittsburgh Youth Ballet is not a college or university --Brad

Reason for existance?

What is the purpose of this template? Is it really desirable to have a list of all surrounding universities on each of the university pages? It seems that people visiting one university is generally not interested in learning about other universities that's linked to the university in question only by physical proximity. Adding this template to each of the university pages adds significant bulk.

That is not to say that the information contained within the template might not be interesting in a different context. For instance, this could be interesting material for the Pittsburgh, PA article. --BenjaminTsai 05:52, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Point Park University

Point Park is currently listed as a college. It should be listed under "Universities", as Point Park is an accredited university according to the MSCHE and Pennsylvania Department of Education. --Hans404

Institutions of higher learning are simply accredited or not; they are not accredited "as universities" vs. being accredited "as colleges." In the US, any institution can call itself a "university" -- many do (Point Park is one) simply for the prestige that the word lends. In the rest of the world (as it used to be until very recently in the US), a "university" is an institution that awards a significant number of graduate degrees and whose faculty is required to engage in a significant amount of research. In the US, the Carnegie classification system ranks institutions according to the degrees they offer. Categories I and IIA are universities in the traditional sense of the word. Categories IIB and III are colleges in the traditional sense of the word. Point Park is a category IIB, hence it is not a university in anything but name. Wikiant 18:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Instead of just listing that "Point Park is a IIB college", it would be nice if you had explained your criteria in advance. Could you maybe provide a link to where you got your data from. Otherwise, thanks for the info. --Hans404

The criteria is not "mine." It is (in the US) the accepted classification system. The categorizations are listed in the Chronicle of Higher Education. It is a paid subscription site. Here is a (free access) link that lists Point Park and its classification (http://www.stat.iastate.edu/courses/stat421/Labs/lab02/aaup2.dat). Wikiant 02:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Just a few notes of interest:

• Point Park became a university in 2004. The link you provided was last modified on Jan 19, 2004. It is very unlikely that PPU's status is up-to-date.

• There are 13 columns of unlabeled data on the page, and it's hard to identify information for what it is.

I'm not trying to force the issue, I just want to see that the proper data is listed. Hans404 04:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

On further examination of www.carnegiefoundation.org, they make no differentiation within the Master's Colleges and University sub-group. Unless there is something that I am missing, I believe that Point Park is deserving of University Status. Hans404 05:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

A university grants all levels of degrees. If the institution is in the master's category, it isn't a university. Wikiant 11:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Then by your logic Slippery Rock University and CalU are both not true universities. BTW: this is directly from carnegiefoundation.org. Hans404 04:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. Go ahead and move them. Wikiant 11:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

University vs. College

Do we really even need to distinguish between them? After all, the point of this template is NOT to classify Pittsburgh area higher education, but to simply LIST THEM so that users can browse to the other articles.

So, rather than quibble over university vs. college, lets just list them all alphabetically under a single box without any categorization.

I doubt anyone ponders over which category a given school is in while using the template. Also, since this categorization is so controversial in the first place, it may actually be a hindrance to the easy navigation to the next school the user wants to visit, since they are likely unsure of where to look for it. Whereas if they were just listed alphabetically, then there is no controversy and one just clicks the school and we are done. Odcdtd45 02:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing controversial about the categorization. The Carnegie classification system is clear and is the accepted authority in the industry. Wikiant 11:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, obviously, its not clear or there wouldnt be this discussion or a need for Wikiant to undo everyone's changes. My point is that these edits are loosing site of the purpose of this template.

So, I will restate the fact that this template does NOT exist as a means to classify higher educational institutions in the Pittsburgh area, but instead is merely to allow for easy navigation for users interested in such a listing.

If Wikiant wants to categorize these colleges and universities, then he/she should go create a page that is just for that. But this template is not the forum for this debate.

In fact, based on what i've seen of the site Wikiant and Hans404 have referenced in the discussion on Point Park University, this issue is more complex than just 'university vs. college'. Thus, I think it would be great if someone were to create a classification page that outlined these categories and explained how to apply them. In addition, another page that listed American colleges and universities and their categories as assigned by the Carnegie Foundation. That effort would be far more constructive than this back and forth bickering over this college or that university on this minor navigation template.

Finally, I believe that the best course of action to lay this debate to rest would be to simply remove the categories and list these schools alphabetically. If there is no objection to this, then I can make this change. Odcdtd45 12:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I see that there is a page on The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching as well as one that outlines these classifications. But I do NOT see one that actually lists educational institutions' classifications using this system. So, that indeed would be a nice addition and would lay our template to rest. I think that Wikiant is a perfect candidate to create such a project. Odcdtd45 13:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I also notice that when one goes to this site and looks up a classification, there is no indication of whether the given institution is a 'college' or 'university', but instead just lists a series of categories. Thus, the categorization of 'college' or 'university' is rather ambiguous and really depends on how one defines these terms. There is more than one interpretation of these categorizations and thus, the reason why this is a debate (see college and university articles).

So, if this foundation does not even take on the task of categorizing schools, then how can we even begin to debate this subject with any reasonable degree of resolution that satisfies everyone. Thus, I truly beleive that this template would be best served by eliminating the 'college' and 'university' categorization and merely be a listing of any higher educational institution within the metropolitan Pittsburgh area. Odcdtd45 13:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

A point that I neglected to mention. Unless anyone objects, I will be major-editing the template box by 00:00, 28 June 2007 UTC (The delay gives anyone time to voice their opinions on the matter). It will consist of renaming the box as "Pittsburgh Schools of Higher Education", and then alphabetizing the schools. Hans404 02:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)