Template talk:Infobox river

native_name title

The use of Native name is offensive to many cultures, can it be remove and replace with first nations name Gnangarra 11:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

It might be better to use indigenous_name, for generality. According to Indigenous peoples#North America, "Indigenous peoples in Canada comprise the First Nations, Inuit and Métis", so first_nations would exclude Inuit and Métis. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:11, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

thats fine as long the offensive "native" is removed. Gnangarra 12:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Some thoughts (as a non-Indigenous Australian editor) ...

Given that:

• {{Infobox river}} displays the native_name in the main part of the box, with the field name displayed as "Native name", whereas other_name displays the name at the top, under the name, with no field name (example diff)
• {{Infobox Australian place}} has native_name (and not other_name) which is displayed at the top with no other text (eg Brisbane (Meanjin), Rottnest Island (Wadjemup)).
• {{Infobox Australian place}} "has been extensively customised for Australia" and states in the instructions that "Native is a deprecated archaic term in the Australian context, but is used in this template for consistency with other templates. Please don't use the term in articles."

Is there some reason why native_name is displayed differently in rivers vs Australian places? Does {{Infobox Australian place}} move it to the top only to avoid the need to display the deprecated/archaic/offensive text "Native name"?

Would it be better if all rivers and other "places" (using Category:Place infobox templates) displayed the native/indigenous name the same way?

Would renaming native_name break anything, in particular other templates?

Mitch Ames (talk) 01:17, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

To avoid the displayed label "Native name", the parameter |name_other= can be used which will display other name(s) unlabelled below |name=. Messing with |name_native= would certainly cause problems in articles like Rhine, Danube, and similar. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:45, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

This parameter gets confused all the time native name has nothing to do with being indigenous. Is the wording/language used by the population in question...Moscow vs Москва..|native_name = Country's name (usually full name) in its official/defacto language(s), hence in italics (double quotemarks).

Москва. Moxy- 02:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia and in English "native" is loaded word that carries a lot offense thanks to colonialism of the British. the title saying Natvie name, should at least be transient and capable of being changed to reflect the language code ie de say it German, nys say its nyungar, the actual word native doesnt need to be there. We dont need to offend people just fill in a box what ever happened to WP:NPOV and our key pillar as being neutral? Gnangarra 09:22, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

the title saying Natvie name, should at least be transient and capable of being changed to reflect the language code ie de say it German, nys say its nyungar, the actual word native doesnt need to be there. — I don't think that would work if there is more than one such name (eg Rhine). Perhaps simply displaying "Indigenous" instead of "Native" (keeping the template parameter name for back-compatibility, but also allowing indigenous_name) would be a simpler solution. This has the advantage of keeping the same heading text in all infoboxes, which helps the reader looking for that specific thing. It also means that someone not familiar with the word (for example) "Nyungar" doesn't have to click the link to find out what a "Nyungar name" is. Mitch Ames (talk) 23:28, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok "native" is a linguists term used for " first language" or " mother tongue" called a "L1" name.... it may or may not be indigenous in nature. First language as in "You are a native speaker of that language" that in most cases is not an indigenous one. Indigenous_name is a patamater we could add...changing native_name = to "first language" could be done but we would need a wider talk because anyone educated in linguistics is aware of meaning in this case.Love, Nigel; Ansaldo, Umberto (2010). "The native speaker and the mother tongue". Language Sciences. 32 (6). Elsevier BV: 589–593. doi:10.1016/j.langsci.2010.09.003. ISSN 0388-0001. Moxy- 04:09, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

According to First language, with my emphasis here: "A first language (L1), native language, ... is the first language or dialect that a person has been exposed to ...". There are variations described in that article, but they are all relative to the speaker. That suggests that L1 is a function of a person, not a country or river, so the concept appears meaningless in the context of an article about a place. If the "native name" is the name in the "native language" then that is the language of the reader of the article (not the writer). Is there a linguist term to define the native language of the indigenous people of a place? Mitch Ames (talk) 05:25, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Autochthonous language Moxy- 08:09, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Autochthonous language redirects to Indigenous language, which supports my original suggestion of "Indigenous name". Mitch Ames (talk) 08:15, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

yup....so new parameter here? Moxy- 08:19, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 11 August 2023

Please swap rows 3 and 4, so that the sequence is min / av / max. This will then match the width and depth outputs. — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 09:39, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 12:50, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Please revert this change, the parameters were ordered that way for a reason. See the discussion from merger of Geobox river into this template. Shannon [ Talk ] 21:08, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

 Reverted, please be ready to discuss with @GhostInTheMachine — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:17, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Shannon [ Talk ] 21:59, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

The archived discussion is lengthy – which bit should I be looking at? — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 17:06, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

@Shannon: ! — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 20:18, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Topographic maps

It would be ideal if this infobox had a parameter for topographic maps as there is for {{Infobox mountain}}. Volcanoguy 04:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't most notable rivers cross more than one 1:25000 topographic map? Would it be a list of topo maps? — hike395 (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

It would probably be a big list for major rivers (which I don't recommend) but the same could be said for major mountain ranges (e.g. Rockies, Andes, Alps). There's a lot of articles about small rivers and creeks that would appear on only one to a couple topo maps. Volcanoguy 19:36, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I normally use {{Break}} for listing topo maps in {{Infobox mountain}} as can be seen in Mount Edziza volcanic complex. Volcanoguy 21:19, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Documentation

The template uses and the Check for unknown parameters call checks for 152 parameters. The template data listed 135 of these and I have imported the 17 extras. However, there are no template data descriptions at all and the Parameter names and descriptions section described just 59 60 62 parameters. I am reluctant to add missing parameters without a suitable description, but will attempt to add ones I do understand. Please review my descriptions and add more — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 11:08, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Parameter names and descriptions section

• Y source2..5 etc ⇒ 88/152 — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 11:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Y discharge2_* .. 5_* ⇒ 104/152 — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 13:15, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Unused parameters?

• Should discharge1_(min / avg / max)_(imperial / metric) etc be removed / killed / expunged / deprecated? I found just four uses of any of these and changed them all to use {{convert}} instead — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 12:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  I have now removed all uses of |discharge1_avg_imperial= |discharge1_avg_metric= |discharge1_max_imperial= |discharge1_min_imperial=

  Also |mouth_elevation_imperial= and |mouth_elevation_metric= — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 22:43, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

  I have removed all of the metric and imperial parameters; they were used in maybe a dozen articles total and are clearly not needed. They haven't been in the documentation for a while, it appears. Please keep an eye on the unsupported parameter category for any articles that might have been missed. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Awesome – and somewhat bolder than I would have managed! I will get busy with the 21 articles now flagged — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 12:28, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Y — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 19:27, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Are the plain parameters discharge1 .. discharge5 live (and so should be documented) / obsolete (and so should be discouraged) / deprecated (and so should be deleted)? — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 19:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  It sounds like you are asking if the parameter |discharge1= is a supported parameter in the template that affects the output of the infobox. If that is your question, the answer is yes, but only in a very few articles. It appears that the other four are unused. A helpful tip: to click on the monthly parameter usage report in the TemplateData section. Find the parameter in question, follow the "page links" link, and see how it is being used in articles. Doing these steps will take you to Escanaba River and other articles.

  These five parameters should probably be deprecated and replaced in articles with |discharge1_avg=. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:13, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

  Mostly I was asking about policy: the removal or continued intended use of apparently obsolete parameters. I have edited the 7 articles using |discharge1= to now use something else — 4 to |discharge1_avg= and 3 to |mouth=. Please can we remove |discharge1= .. |discharge5= from the template? — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 22:46, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

   Done. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Additional image or map parameters

Are these available on this template, like on Template:Infobox settlement or Template:Infobox public transit? Trying to figure out if it is possible to include multiple maps in the infobox. See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Preference_of_using_OpenStreetMaps. Shannon [ Talk ] 16:06, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Shannon1 I sandboxed that at template:Infobox river/sandbox here is an example output, note hidden map and shown map.

Seine
The Seine in Paris
Topographical map
Native name	la Seine (French)
Location
Country	France
Physical characteristics
Source
• location	Source-Seine
Mouth	English Channel (French: la Manche)
• location	Le Havre/Honfleur
• coordinates	49°26′02″N 0°12′24″E
• elevation	0 m (0 ft)
Length	777 km (483 mi)
Basin size	79,000 km2 (31,000 sq mi)
Discharge
• location	Le Havre
• average	560 m3/s (20,000 cu ft/s)
Basin features
River system	Seine basin
Tributaries
• left	Yonne, Loing, Eure, Risle
• right	Ource, Aube, Marne, Oise, Epte