Template talk:Infobox fraternity/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Additional parameter

I think it would be valuable to add a parameter field for Conference, to be centered in the template immediately below the field for {{{caption}}}. Many of these organizations belong to one of the major Greek Letter conferences, while the rest would be listed as former members of one ore more of these, or as locals.

For reference, the available North American conference links could be:

• Association of College Honor Societies, abbreviated as ACHS
• Concilio Interfraternitario Puertorriqueño de la Florida, abbreviated as CIPFI
• Fraternity Forward Coalition, abbreviated as FFC (an emerging conference)
• National Association of Latino Fraternal Organizations, abbreviated as NALFO
• National APIDA Panhellenic Association, abbreviated as NAPA
• National Multicultural Greek Council, abbreviated as NMGC
• National Pan-Hellenic Council, abbreviated as NPHC
• National Panhellenic Conference, abbreviated as NPC
• North American Interfraternity Conference, abbreviated as NIC
• Professional Fraternity Association, abbreviated as PFA
• United Council of Christian Fraternities and Sororities, abbreviated as UCCFS

There may be others. This parameter ought to allow Wikilinks, affiliation with multiple conferences and additional modifiers, separated by commas, such as (former), (independent), or (local). Thoughts?
Jax MN (talk) 15:59, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Agree with the parameter, but I don't agree on the location. I think it should be down below with a label. To use the last example, I think simply having UCCFS without any explanation at the top is confusing, while having United Council of Christian Fraternities and Sororities in the same place is too long. I suggest Council as the most neutral Label. Naraht (talk) 19:02, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, NAPA was an article and deleted, under the old name, National APIA Panhellenic Association Naraht (talk) 19:05, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Your alternative placement suggestion sounds reasonable, and certainly it ought to have a label. Naming the parameter as "Council" or maybe "Association" would be fine. I wanted something which could allow for the word 'local' as well. "Nat'l Association" or "Nat'l Council"? As to the NAPA article, I'd left a number of redlinks in articles, assuming that one of us would get around to reviving and improving the original NAPA article. Clearly NAPA or NAPIDA is notable, with multiple citations available. I haven't yet investigated why the original was deleted. As a citation, the Baird's Online Archive will helpfully reference its member fraternities and indicates if they have an Asian or Pacific Islander affinity. Jax MN (talk) 19:32, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the term used into the template that these are in is "Greek Umbrella Organization" which I'd *really* prefer something better.Naraht (talk) 19:46, 26 April 2021 (UTC) They moved the NAPA article into my personal area at my request, If you've got references so we can move it back that would be great.Naraht (talk) 19:46, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

NAPA is relatively new, but is occasionally in the press. Here are a couple of external references:

• NAPA noted in the Baird's Archive
• NAPA noted in the αΚΔΦ citation, in the Baird's Archive

As to "Greek Umbrella Organization", I agree that it isn't the best phrase. I don't see why we'd have to use it. Note too, I'd suggest that the template instructions clarify that this isn't for the name of a local Panhel (campus) group, but for a national association. Jax MN (talk) 19:58, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

I found another template with a formatting style for multiple affiliations that may work for us: {{Infobox university}}. See its affiliations param. I don't see this change as particularly controversial. You, Naraht, have experience in editing templates. Would you be so kind as to do this one? Jax MN (talk) 16:27, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Let's actually figure out what we're doing before we start editing the template. From the sounds of it, the plan at the moment sounds like having either an |affiliation= or |council= parameter, which would have a label and a switch statement that would link to one of the above options (e.g. input |affiliation=ACHS and it would output ACHS). Does that sound about right? Primefac (talk) 15:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

For positive entries, that seems fine. In the case of missing affiliations, or where the "affiliation" is simply 'local' or 'independent' or where a modifier like 'formerly' is needed, I'd like to ensure the parameter allows these words. Along with multiple affiliations: Alpha Gamma Rho for example is a member of both the PFA and NIC. Jax MN (talk) 15:36, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Well, the #default would be the input, allowing for multiple or non-standard values. Primefac (talk) 15:42, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

So the idea would be to allow for other inputs, but to have a fixed list of attributes that would cause links to specific pages. So |affiliation=ACHS would give ACHS but OTOH, |affiliation=FOOA woud give FOOA and |affiliation=FOOA would give BARNaraht (talk)

For the second one, I assume you mean it would be more like |affiliation=[[FOOA|BAR]], which would give BAR. Primefac (talk) 13:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

In other words:

| dataX = {{#switch:{{lc:{{{affiliation|}}}}}
 | achs = [[Association of College Honor Societies|ACHS]]
 | cipfi = [[Concilio Interfraternitario Puertorriqueño de la Florida|CIPFI]]
 | ffc = [[Fraternity Forward Coalition|FFC]]
 | nalfo = [[National Association of Latino Fraternal Organizations|NALFO]]
 | napa = [[National APIDA Panhellenic Association|NAPA]]
 | nmgc = [[National Multicultural Greek Council|NMGC]]
 | nphc = [[National Pan-Hellenic Council|NPHC]]
 | npc = [[National Panhellenic Conference|NPC]]
 | nic = [[North American Interfraternity Conference|NIC]]
 | pfa = [[Professional Fraternity Association|PFA]]
 | uccfs = [[United Council of Christian Fraternities and Sororities|UCCFS]]
 | #default = {{{affiliation}}}
 }}

If an input doesn't match one of the pre-set values, then it will simply return that value without any formatting, meaning you can pass a Wikilink and it will display as intended. Primefac (talk) 13:26, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Primefac Thank you for expressing it! but I'm worried about Alpha Phi Alpha which belongs to both the NPHC and the NIC (and there are at least half a dozen more, NIC&NPHC or NIC&NALFO, I think. Is the dataX logic what would make both nphc and NPHC give the same result regardless of capitalization? And is there any way to extract "formerly" from the string and add it to the result? (yes, I'm looking for sprinkles on my Sundae. :))Naraht (talk) 14:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I mean, we could in theory add a million different cases to the switch, but really I set it up like that just to keep some of the code cleaner (and yes, it is case-insensitive). I personally think that if the subject is part of two groups, then it would be added manually (e.g. |affiliation=NALFO and NIC). The other option would be to add an |affiliation2= param which would add the "and" in the above example. Regarding "formerly", I do not think we should include that option; if they're not in a council/conference, it should not be in the infobox (that sort of content is better for prose). Primefac (talk) 14:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Jax MN which sprinkles do you want on your Sundae? :) I'd prefer affiliation2 but I agree with Primefac on formerly that it should instead be in Prose. Also, is there any way to count the number of articles in which this infobox use a particular parameter or even a particular value for a parameter?Naraht (talk) 14:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

This template uses TemplateData, so if a param is added it will show up there (lag time is a month, as the info is only cached on the first day), so if it's a more immediate need for tracking a tracking category should be set up. Primefac (talk) 14:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Catching up, thanks for developing the code, Primefac, and to both of you for working through potential issues. The reason I hoped to allow "formerly" as one of the modifiers is its importance in suggesting their type. Phi Beta Kappa is formerly a member of the ACHS, certainly with no need to remain listed in that association: They are noteworthy enough. But articles for many lesser-known honor societies would benefit from the reminder that they once were ACHS, versus some other type. In that same vein, casual readers would appreciate understanding where FFC fraternities were previously NIC groups. It helps to clarify their niche. Next, I see you caught the issue of forcing all-caps where someone inputs "achs" vs. "ACHS". Good. Next, maybe the label for the param should be "Associations(s)" to allow for potential plural affiliations. Finally, there are at least 150 articles for local fraternities or literary societies where the param would be "local". As a Term of Art within the fraternal world, that word probably deserves its own link or definition. Outsiders may not know what "local" means in this context. Jax MN (talk) 16:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

For local, I suggest a link to Fraternities_and_sororities#Glossary. My guess is that a majority of formerly aren't FFC, they are either groups that left the PFA and ACHS or were NIC/NPC that merged with other groups.Naraht (talk) 15:09, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I would argue that's more of a type than an affiliation. If a group isn't affiliated with any council, coalition, or conference (etc), then this parameter wouldn't be used. Primefac (talk) 16:11, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Primefac, Jax MNBumping. And I agree that "Local" and IFC are not measuing the same thing. Kappa Beta Gamma is outside all of the affiliation groups, but isn't Local.Naraht (talk) 19:41, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Are we all good with calling it "Affiliation"? If so, I'll update the template. Primefac (talk) 11:46, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I support the change. Thanks! Jax MN (talk) 16:27, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Primefac Any progress on this? *Thank you for your work on this!*Naraht (talk) 13:18, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Primefac (talk) 15:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Working!

Thank you Primefac! I have added it to Alpha Phi Omega. I added affiliation to the list of acceptable parameters at the bottom. Let's see how that works and see how much need there is for affiliation2.Naraht (talk) 22:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Were one of you adjusting the page description and template on the article: Template:Infobox fraternity? Looks great. Jax MN (talk) 00:43, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I've just added the affiliation param to several of the NAPA fraternities. Looking at Beta Chi Theta they are members of both NAPA and the NIC. Does use of both acronyms separate by a comma, does this negate their Wikilinks, requiring manual links? Jax MN (talk) 13:22, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I think I've added what neads to for the document.Naraht (talk) 14:58, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it will negate the wikillinks. That's (and Alpha Phi Alpha and the other NPHC/NIC groups) was the reason that affiliation2 was also proposed.Naraht (talk) 14:58, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Affilation2

So, what would affilation2 look like. Same as affiliation, but if it exists, it would simply have ' and ' and then the same set as the first? Also, we know of at least 5 groups that need two groups (Beta Chi Theta and the NPHC Fraternities other than Omega Psi Phi) how many more? I'm excluding the entries where one or both is a "former" (the ACHS crossovers with the PFA(and its predecessors) would actually be the worst). Do we have any triple affiliations?Naraht (talk)

Oh, yeah, forgot about that. I can add it in. Primefac (talk) 22:03, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I cannot think of a triple affiliation. Such a situation would be expensive, and I know the major fraternities well enough to know their affiliations, limited to one or two. Jax MN (talk) 03:33, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Progress

Completed groupings. (making and adding to this list as we go). This assumes the list of current and former members on each of these linked WP articles is accurate:

• ACHS - Former groups done. Active groups updated through end of Alpha (many infoboxes added) - Did a search for the ACHS Category without an infobox. 20 of them. Can't add the affiliation if they don't have an infobox. So we have to create the infoboxes... (Naraht)
• CIPFI - Completed. (Jax_MN)
• FFC - Completed (Jax_MN)
• NALFO - Active groups completed. Some of the former groups may still need annotation. (Naraht) Former groups now noted. (Jax_MN)
• NAPA - Completed. (Jax_MN)
• NMGC - Completed (those with WP pages). There's a discrepancy on the website and WP, one group may have dropped. (Jax_MN)
• NIC - Completed: active, former and dormant (Jax_MN)
• NPC - Completed: active and former. (Jax_MN)
• NPHC - (Affiliation done by Banan14kab, Naraht added affiliation2 for APHiA, KAPsi and IPhiTheta, (and found to his surprise that PhiBS was no longer NIC))
• PFA - Completed: current and former groups (except a few former affiliates without infoboxes). One exception: Concatenated Order of Hoo-Hoo, listed on the PFA page, but not on the PFA page. I wrote to both organizations. Listed in error? (Jax_MN)
• UCCFS - Completed (I may have done these; it was late. Heh. Jax_MN)

• local groups with WP article on our watchlist are now noted with "local" as scope; For these I did not use the affiliation param. (Note, this is IF they have Wikipedia articles AND infoboxes) (Jax_MN)
• non-affiliated or never-affiliated national groups should be updated using the unlinked word "independent" on the affiliation parameter line.

I've placed a manual link in the affiliation field and the word "(former)" to show groups that have left one of the conferences. Jax MN (talk) 13:17, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Looks like we will need another affiliation group. Four of the premier Honor societies have formed a consortium called Honor Society Caucus. No WP article yet. These are: Phi Beta Kappa, Phi Kappa Phi, Sigma Xi, and Omicron Delta Kappa.

Note, I fixed the second of these references to omit the spurious mirror site "honorsociety.org", which seems parasitical and maybe a scam. I don't know why they were advertising the Caucus.

I added a paragraph on the ACHS page, within the Former Members section, to talk about the Honor Society Caucus. I created a page name redirect to this section. I see that Phi Kappa Phi mentions it, listing all the members on a page on their website, which seems proof enough. Curiously, the other three members don't have a mention of it that I can see from a cursory review. But Purdue University also mentions them. I therefore do not know when the group was founded, nor its parameters. I assume that these large, established groups don't need much in the way of support, and don't want to pay ACHS dues. But they use the Caucus for lobbying, perhaps. I've updated all four articles so that each mention their prior membership in the ACHS, and their current participation in the Caucus. Still to do, add the Caucus to this Affiliation param for the infobox, and update the template to reflect these four former members as part of a new group. Jax MN (talk) 04:35, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Merged?

For quite a few of the inactive fraternities, it would be appropriate to have a "Merged Into", especially if it was a clean addition like Phi Kappa into Phi Kappa Theta or Pi Lambda Sigma into Theta Phi Alpha. I'd suggest merged_into and merged_date so

merged_into=[[Theta Phi Alpha]] merged_date={{dts|1952|8|1}}

would come up as

Merged Theta Phi Alpha on September 1, 1952

or something similar (maybe don't combine the lines?) Naraht (talk) 14:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I think it would be much more useful to have a freeform "fate" field, as Infobox company does, which could be used to indicate a merger, denationalization (e.g. Delta Kappa), or dissolution among other fates.-- choster (talk) 21:06, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm good with fate, allow for Iota Alpha Pi to be described more cleanly.Naraht (talk) 16:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Any one object to fate?Naraht (talk) 22:10, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

The Delta Kappa example is useful, to consider options. I have been working on a number of infobox updates; some would indeed have an obvious need for a "fate" param at times. But for many, the three 'free' fields have worked well. An example is the infobox for Lambda Omega. I inset the secondary target (using free1) for a later merger, and by happenstance these fields all tend toward the bottom of the infobox. By placing the date in parentheses it looks pretty clean. In addition to a known merger partner I've used words like "scattered" after the label "Merged into?" I've landed on what appears to be a solution for all these, then another twist appears. The outcomes of all these groups are each a little dissimilar. I've used these "merged with" free labels several dozen times, but look forward to hearing other ideas.

Sigma Mu Sigma is another wonky one, where the normal rules don't fit. Take a look to see how I handled it there, and let me know if you've an alternate idea. Jax MN (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Restart

Yes, I see that there are a lot of possible fates. I still like having fate = ... but, to keep the flexibility, I think that it should go in the "natural" place, last, which is just before the free & free label entries (and after everything non-free).Naraht (talk) 22:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

OK. Let's flip this around, does anyone have a *problem* with Fate being added just before the free/free_labels. If no one comments by the end of February, I'll be Bold and add it. For complicated ones, we can either use Fate with the "Free"s or just leave as "Free"s.Naraht (talk) 20:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

I wish I could think of a short word between "fate" and "outcome" in its emotional weight. Fate certainly works, but it's got that "drumbeat of doom" vibe. Jax MN (talk) 20:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. And fate doesn't really seem the right emotion for the equal mergers of healthy-ish groups into a new name like

• Omicron Nu and Kappa Omicron Phi into Kappa Omicron Nu
• Phi Kappa and Theta Kappa Phi into Phi Kappa Theta

Outcome does seem more neutral, but I agree it doesn't quite fit either.Naraht (talk) 20:48, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Not properly handling status

Primefac - Adelphian Society has had a Status added that isn't Active, but still shows up in the website missing cat.Naraht (talk) 15:06, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

 Fixed. Primefac (talk) 15:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Re: the status param, I do not see it expressed among the other parameters of the template found on the Template:Infobox fraternity article, which is the template I'd always used when writing GLO articles. Is this an omission? I've not spent much time looking into the metastructure of where template markup language is derived. Jax MN (talk) 17:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I never update /doc pages, usually because I'm doing a flyby TPER request and don't know how folks want to display the param. This time I just sort of forgot, mainly because of that habit. Primefac (talk) 11:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Handling suffixes.

Moved from WP:FRAT

Primefac For both the status and the affiliation, right now the infobox does something based on the value of the field. For status it determines whether it goes into the category indicating a need for websites, for Affiliation, whether the value should be wikilinked. However in both places, for quite valid reasons, it makes sense to have a suffix, either a date of merger/going defunct and for Affiliation, the addition of the word former. Can these be changed so that the action only evaluates the first part of the string (string of alphas (UC or lc)) to do this. So for example, since "affiliation = NIC" generates "Affiliation [[Northamerican Interfraternity Conference|NIC]]" that it could also have "affiliation = NIC (former)" generate "Affiliation [[Northamerican Interfraternity Conference|NIC]] former"? (and status = Defunct *and* status = Defunct (1876) both cause it to not look for a website?) Naraht (talk) 14:21, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I would rather have multiple parameters with individual values than have to split out one parameter to do multiple things. If we want to indicate when a GLO went defunct, then we should have a parameter for that. If we want previous affiliations in addition to current affiliations, we should have a separate parameter for that. Primefac (talk) 15:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

OK based on this, it sounds like the following should be added.

• former_affiliation
• former_affiliation2
• merge_date
• merge_target (what it merged into, better term?)
• defunct_date

Naraht (talk) 01:44, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Added Former_Affiliation to template

I added Former Affiliation and Former_Affiliation2. These have the same choices as Affiliation and Affiliation2 plus AES (Association of Education Sororities), PPA (Professional Panhellenic Association) and PIC (Professional Interfraternity Conference). With that, I'm not sure what other umbrella organizations should be added to the possible Former Affiliation.Naraht (talk) 06:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Adding "Former Affiliation", etc, as a parameter is a really helpful addition. Thanks for handling it.

Naraht, would you add links to AES, PPA and PIC when these show up? For example, looking at Omega Upsilon Phi, PIC shows as its former affiliation, but casual readers won't know what that abbreviation stands for, nor would they be easily able to find its history. Jax MN (talk) 19:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, this may need to be addressed: See Delta Sigma Epsilon (sorority) for usage of "AES" and how it renders. Is this just a typo, where a slash was substituted for a pipe? Jax MN (talk) 19:39, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Jax MNThank you for finding both of these issues! the PIC one is because while I changed it to PIC, I didn't make it a former_affiliation. PIC will only link when it is a former. PIC hasn't existed since the merger in 1977 with the PPA. As for AES, yes, that was a typo in the template, now fixed.Naraht (talk) 21:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Level or Environment Parameter???

Moved from WP:FRAT

I'm looking at all of the entries in type and was thinking of a separate parameter indicating where members could be taken from, but I'm not quite sure what would be the best name.

• High School
• Undergraduate
• Graduate
• Community

there could be multiple here, Alpha Phi Omega for example, allows both Undergraduate and Graduate students. Naraht (talk) 09:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Is this a useful thing to have in the infobox? Genuinely curious, but it seems like an exception rather than a rule that a GLO would take folks other than uni students (and for the record, I don't necessarily think the UG/Graduate distinction to be particularly useful). Primefac (talk) 15:15, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

There are at least 16 groups (not counting redirects) using this that are for High School students (and in some cases two year colleges) in Category:High school honor societies and at least the same number of Graduate only (between Law School and Medical School fraternities (exclusing pre-med and pre-law)).Naraht (talk) 18:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

|member_pool= could be a name, or maybe |open_to=. Primefac (talk) 11:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Good catch. I don't know if we need a new parameter or to develop guidelines within our current structure. For example, using a combination of Type and Emphasis to convey this info. Maybe the Beta Club would be Type: Honor Emphasis: High School, for example. A collegiate/community-based group could either be Type: Social Emphasis: Community and collegiate OR Type: Community and collegiate Emphasis: Social.

I have been using the lifetime field for high school and non-collegiate groups as a workaround for the automatic insertion of the word "collegiate" in the Members field. It became an issue when I started working on high school honor groups. Then, I noticed it was also a problem with groups that initiate members into both collegiate and community-based chapters. I am not as worried about graduate schools as those are technically still collegiate members. Would a solution be to replace the word "collegiate" with "active" in the Membership field? I realize that is not a perfect solution as some groups consider their alumni members to be active.

" Rublamb (talk) 22:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Additional Umbrella abbreviation:KSCV

As I see it, there are 11 members of the KSCV - Kösener Senioren-Convents-Verband that have wikipedia pages on enwiki (and another 5 or so on dewiki that aren't here). Not all use this template, but I guide to how much it can be used. that puts ahead of the FFC for example.Naraht (talk) 21:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Figuring out the newly found European umbrellas was on my short list of projects. Since I did not take German, I sometimes have to ask my husband to look at the weird translations and/or the dewiki verson--and the really long words kinda freak me out when proofreading (do I keep the German word or translate into English, etc.) So, I am very happy that you are addressing this! Are we getting to the point of a template? Rublamb (talk) 22:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

KSCV added. A few were changed to allow the template to link, several in the list at Kösener Senioren-Convents-Verband aren't using infobox fraternity and should. Also one links to SC and I moved that to affiliation2 to allow the autolink for KSCV.Naraht (talk) 02:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)