Template talk:Infobox film/Archive 12

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External links revisited

user page transclusion removed

Taking into account both sides of the argument, how about retaining these fields in the infobox but making them less prominent and reducing the amount of space they take up? See the infobox to the right to get an idea of what I have in mind. PC78 (talk) 14:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It is a decent cosmetic change. It doesn't address the fact that these external links are prompted up above the others at the bottom of the article, but at least it could cut down on the number of lines. Maybe bring up this suggestion at WT:FILM; maybe someone will see an issue with this setup that we don't. (Browser capability and that sort of thing.) —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, the previous discussion seems to have hit a wall, and there doesn't appear to be an obvious way around it, for the moment at least. :) This at least addresses the concern of space and clutter in the infobox. PC78 (talk) 15:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

These external links violate the external links guideline. Making them "less cluttered" is counter-productive, and doing anything to touch them in the template is again a deliberate violation of the external links guideline. 2005 (talk) 01:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

How they are arranged in the template cannot in itself constitute a violation of any guideline. PC78 (talk) 01:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Of course it is. It's self-evident. It's like discussing putting the stolen bank money in the kitchen or in the bedroom. These are inappropriate links. Discussing them as if they are valid is to act as if they have credibility. "Let's get a consensus to put the stolen money in the kitchen" is a discussion that should not occur, if only because it is counter-productive. "let's make the inappropriate links less obvious" is the wrong direction to head in. They need to be removed, not put in 6pt typeface. 2005 (talk) 02:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

To use your analogy: stealing money is a crime, but stashing it in the kitchen or bedroom is neither here nor there. Likewise, while I support the removal of these links from the infobox, how they are arranged in the meantime is of little or no consequence. Disagree if you will, but this part of the discussion seems rather fruitless either way. PC78 (talk) 02:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice change, looks good. Cirt (talk) 15:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice look, but I agree with Erik here that it doesn't actually address the main issue with the links. The link of the infobox is negliable next to the fact that we are priding two websites (IMDb and AllMovie) over all others, specifically two websites that we don't even consider reliable sources of information. It's certainly something that can be implemented until this long debate finally reaches and end, but answers to the questions still need consensus.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 15:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks very good. If it can't be removed, this is at least a compromise. --Melty girl 17:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks good. I slightly upped the font-size a bit... 85% of 90% falls under the readability scale for some browsers. — Edokter • Talk • 18:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd be opposed to this change, as it does not resolve the underlying issue being discussed above. I do think we can reach a satisfactory consensus on the issue of removal v. keep; changing the links to be less prominently displayed is a side issue we should really leave until that one is dealt with. Steve ^{T • C} 22:46, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

This is a mere cosmetic change, which is not intended to resolve the main issue with these links. The two things are not mutually exclusive. PC78 (talk) 23:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and implemented this. I still think we should try taking them out, but this does look better to me. Flowerparty^☀ 00:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

As I've asked on your talk page, can you please revert this edit. A formal edit request was never made, and there were other changes made in my userspace which were not part of this proposal and should not have been copied here. PC78 (talk) 00:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd also support this reversion, regardless of the larger discussion, since the proposer (PC78) isn't ready to submit a precise diff yet. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks good to me. We can soon change it again if need be. Just let us know. I removed the extra code. Flowerparty^☀ 00:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but on your head be it if people start complaining about the change. ;) The response above was generally positive, but I would have been wary about pushing this through so soon after Steve posted his objection. I may not agree with his reasons for doing so, but I do respect them. PC78 (talk) 00:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I see firm cross-party support for this one. Steve's isn't really an objection, he's just being awkward ;) Flowerparty^☀ 01:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

May I point out that when only one of the three items is filled in, as is quite often the case with IMDB, the new design actually emphasizes the lone link more because of the dividing line.

Also, can I register a mild complaint that the previous discussion about what to do with the external links in the infobox was held on the higher-traffic WT:Film, this discussion is on a pretty obscure corner of the world. I wasn't aware of it until I saw the change in the infobox while editing an article. Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 02:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I also agree with the objection that making this cosmetic change does not address the underlying issue: to link externally or not to link externally in the infobox. My druthers would be to settle that problem, and then decide the relatively simple question of what to do with the box's design. (And if these links are being de-emphasized, wouldn't making them "small" be a good idea?) Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 02:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussion about this template rightly belongs here, but I did post a comment about this proposal at WT:FILM. As noted above, this proposal was never meant to address the underlying issue, and Flowerparty acted alone in making the change. Text size was originally smaller in my sandbox, but was enlarged by Edokter for readability. PC78 (talk) 02:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That hardly shows any real consensus for this: if the point is to de-emphasize the links, making them a little less readable is the inevitable result. At this point, I'm in favor is reverting this change as being premature. Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 03:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I do think that IMDb and Allmovie are unnecessary duplicates and either one or another should be used. regarding "official website" , that is something that would be questionable in my opinion since it can promote anything and can be easily abused.--Termer (talk) 04:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

(out)I understand the point about having a website link in the infobox seeming to give the official Wikipedia blessing to that site or those sites, but I look upon it as simply a convenient link to another source of additional information not really suited to our format. I had no problem with IMDB - I don't share the disdain for it that others do, and consider quite a reliable source (but then, I deal primarily with old films and not recent ones, and perhaps that's where the difference in trust lies) - but I tried to have Allmovie replaced with TCM, because I've found it to be much more helpful and informative than AMG. The official website is, again, mostly something that's of interest to people working on new films, so I suppose I abstain about that. My druther sfor the external links would be:

1. None, but an internal link to the "External links" section

2. IMDB & TCM

3. IMDB

4. None

I can see how the wind is blowing, so I know #2 is not going to happen, and #1 wasn't apprehended as the brilliant compromise I thought it was, and as between #3 and #4, well, it just doesn't make that much difference to me. However, I don't think keeping the status quo, but with a decorative twist, is really much of an answer - or rather, it answers an ancilliary question that I don't think is nearly as interesting or important as the original one - it's just giving the kids new clothes when what they need is to see a doctor.

Since I didn't see any kind of consensus coming down the pike anytime soon, I thought the easiest thing to do is just yank 'em out and forget it every happened -- unless, that is, people want to adopt #1 as the Answer to All Our Hopes and Prayers. Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 05:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You have my support for option 2: IMDB & TCM. Or option 3. IMDB. having IMDB and Allmovies simultaneously doesn't make much sense but TCM is a good alternative for classic movies. --Termer (talk) 05:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Jeez, I paid you good money and you didn't even vote for #1 as I paid you to do! You'll hear from my goons in the morning. Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 05:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

sorry about that but an internal link to the "External links" section is simply technically difficult to make it functional since who says that every article has an "External links" section in the first place. And do you know anybody who wants to go over, what was it, about 10,000 articles?--Termer (talk) 05:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I doubt there are very many film articles without "External links" sections. but it hardly matters: if there is none, the link will simply send the reader to the top of the article. For instance, this talk page has no external links section, but this link: #External links should send you to the top. Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 01:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC) [I removed the claim, since it's not working the way I expected it to.]

(unindent) I'll concede that an internal link to the "External links" section from within the infobox would be redundant; it was a suggestion I thought might mollify those opposed to the suggested change on usefulness grounds. So, back to the original debate we go, and I'd like to pick up on your "10,000 articles" comment; this was presumably based on Edokter's "The main problem is that the link is used on 10.000+ pages, with probably half of these not using a link in the 'External links' section" comment above. I'd like to know where this information is coming from, as it seems to form the basis of Edokter's oppose on this issue. I've just checked 50 film articles at random, the vast majority of which were start-class, and every single one of them had an IMDb link in the "External links" section. Now, I'm willing to bet you can find some that don't include the link, but it's pretty obvious to me that no matter the state of the article, an IMDb link is the first thing editors think of adding, and do so. This talk of having to go over 10,000 articles is a bit of a red herring. Steve ^{T • C} 09:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Guys, rehashing the main debate here is highly unconstructive, especially as it's still being discussed above. If I have to point out that his was never intended to address the main issue, beyond the concern about three links taking up too much space, I'll go nuts. Changing the layout of these links does not preclude removing some or all of them at a later date. PC78 (talk) 11:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, trust me, I previewed my response in about three different places before plonking it here; it seemed the best place if only to refute the "10,000 articles" comment. To answer your point and get back on-topic, I'll merely say that my original "oppose" was based upon a slight misreading of your original idea (which looked to be a soft compromise, rather than a related, but seperate proposal), and a feeling that a debate on an additional change wasn't helpful on the page right now, and would obscure the issue we're trying to work through. All the best, Steve ^{T • C} 11:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I think we're well beyond the point where we can expect anything positive to come from the discussion above, most of which is focused on the merits of IMDb anyway. I think we'd be as well to draw a line under it and start over, looking at each of the links in turn and (as Ed suggests above) examining different ways we can move forward, perhaps even resolving the issue with a straw poll if necessary. I'm sure we could at least reach a concensus over the Allmovie link if we tried. Regards. PC78 (talk) 12:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Any chance we can do away with the ---- line? Not sure why we need that explicit of a division in the infobox. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 13:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Strongly agree. The line doesn't de-emphasize the links below it, it actually emphasizes them. Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 22:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I certainly don't agree that it in any way "emphasizes" the links, though I have no strong preferance one way or the other. I've removed it from the example above, so you can at least see what it looks like without. PC78 (talk) 23:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Black was a bit severe. I've made it light gray. How's that? Flowerparty^☀ 23:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no strong preferance one way or the other; I would, however, prefer that you make the suggestion before you make the edit. PC78 (talk) 23:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd be much happier with this Count Blofeld 12:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Determining if there should be external links in the Film Infobox

• Statement from requester - There has been a challenge of consensus for the removal of the external links in the Film Infobox. This request for comment is to generate a larger scale of opinion to help properal identify what the consensus is. Please see the discussion above for more information as well as the original discussion.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• External links belong in an external links section or in the article with a <ref> tag. I actually prefer all external links to be removed from the infobox but have the least objection to the 'offical site'. Garion96 (talk) 17:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• No non-official site links should ever be in an infobox. Automatically adding IMDB and Allmovie links to an infobox violates the spirit of the external links guideline, and common sense. For some more obscure movies neither imdb or allmovie have pages that merit linking to, so they should obviously not be automatically linked. Commonly adding these links to the external links section is fine, but no way should they be part of an automatic template. Finally bringing these infoboxes in line with the external links guideline will be a good thing. 2005 (talk) 00:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
  • In what way does it violate "common sense"? Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 02:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
    • I stated it: "For some more obscure movies neither imdb or allmovie have pages that merit linking to, so they should obviously not be automatically linked." What is not obvious about that? 2005 (talk) 02:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Sorry, you've got an assumption there involving an estimation of quality, and a claimed deduction, none of which have anything to do with "common sense". Nor is there anything "obvious" about the deduction. Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 03:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
        • Sorry, but you are just being difficult if you want to insist that every page about every movie on both these sites always meets the the external links guideline, even though you have not seen every page. You may have a uniquely convoluted idea of what common sense is, but any reasonable person looking at the external links guideline will conclude that only official sites get an automatic pass. Likewise, any reasonable person who has looked extensively at the imdb and allmovie sites will conclude that there are some virtually blank pages that clearly do not meet the external links guideline and offer nothing of value to a user. It is common sense to say that these links should only be on pages where there merit being on those pages. 2005 (talk) 03:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
          • I'm "just being difficult" and have "a uniquely convoluted idea of what common sense is"? Whatever, have it your way -- anyone who disagrees with your contention is violating common sense. Have a nice day. Ed Fitzgerald ^{t / c} 03:37, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

• Official website only, though prefer none at all. No other infobox links to so many external sites, and most don't even have an "official site" parameter; Even {{Infobox Musical artist}} only provides space for a single official link. Rottentomatoes gets mentioned in film articles fairly regularly, but we're not adding that in here either. Given the quality of most "official" sites (bloated flash marketing/trailer, often not renewed after a year), I'd even support moving those links to just the External links section, too. Longterm site consistency is helpful. -- Quiddity (talk) 02:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I suggest removing all external links INCLUDING the official website - in the spirit of Navboxes. My main reason for thinking this is that the official website is useless from an encyclopedic perspective so should not be linked to so prominently. It rarely offers anything except an advert to someone who clicks on it. imdb and allmovie, in contrast, can provide useful (if not entirely reliable) information about the topic in question so there is actually more reason to include those links than there is a link to the official website (or websites as I mention below). Similarly, I think a link to Box Office Mojo would be more useful as part of the revenue field than a link to the official website. But all of these links would better be kept in the external links section where they can be properly organised and where it avoids unecessary infobox bloat. GDallimore (Talk) 15:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
• CommentI do think that IMDb and Allmovie are unnecessary duplicates and either one or another should be used. Regarding "official website" , that is something that would be questionable in my opinion since it can promote anything and can be easily abused. However I do support keeping the IMDB part of the infobox as the most comprehensive source on movies available and linking it with relevant WP infoboxis would take better advantage of the synergy of internet by helping researches, the readers of WP to verify and cross reference the related facts. And finally, I wouldn't consider having a link in infoboxes that would redirect the reader to external links section a serious alternative. Then I'd rather have a "clean infobox" without any such redirects within an article itself.--Termer (talk) 22:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure it's the job of Wikipedia editors to decide which Internet film resource is the most comprehensive - for one thing, it may depend upon the film. Also, if a Wikipedia reader is using imdb to check facts, somebody is doing something wrong... In any event, shouldn't the goal should be for Wikipedia to be the most comprehensive resource AND be the most reliable? GDallimore (Talk) 10:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
    • It has nothing to do with Wikipedia editors decision. It's common knowledge and a fact according to film and internet related books Reference Sources on the Internet By Karen R. Diaz, Could it be a Movie? By Christina Hamlett, Hans Conried By Suzanne Gargiulo, Leonard Maltin, Ain't It Cool? By Harry Knowles, Paul Cullum, Mark Ebner, From Bananas to Buttocks By Myra Mendible etc. IMDB is one of the most cited film related source in published books [1] that gives you 752 returns on google books and 2950 at google scholar [2] So I see no reasons why WP project film should ignore the status IMDB has once it's about movies. Shouldn't Wikipedia be the most comprehensive resource AND be the most reliable. Sure, why not , I wouldn't have anything against such a suggestion. But it needs to happen first before WP project film gets cited along with IMDB in published sources as the most comprehensive free source of movie information on the Internet.--Termer (talk) 03:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
      • What is "common knowledge" about the IMDb is not the subject here. Whether the IMDb should be linked in the external links section or not is unrelated to this issue, which is removing automatic link placements in infoboxes to bring them in compliance with the external links guideline. It seems clear the broad consensus is to remove all external links from infoboxes. A separate discussion about the merits of IMDb and Allmovie could take place elsewhere, but this isn't the place for that. 2005 (talk) 03:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
        • Agreed, particularly since nobody is suggesting removing imdb links from the EL section. Infoboxes are to aid navigation around wikipedia, not the Internet as a whole. This infobox is too long as it is. GDallimore (Talk) 10:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
        • Also, for the record (and I'll probably regret saying this, but will leave it as a single comment), Termer's arguments are fundamentally flawed as well as irrelevant. Taking the last point made, it is out and out wrong to suggest that reliable sources say that IMDB is the "most comprehensive free source of movie information on the Internet" when the source actually says that that is how imdb bill themselves. Also, that book was published in 1997 so cannot be a guide for how we should think now. GDallimore (Talk) 10:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
          • Disagree with User:2005. It is directly related and the reason why IMDB is part of the infobox and should stay that way.--Termer (talk) 15:02, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
• Comment i concur with the opinion that all external links (including the official website) belong in the "external links" section, not in the info box. as to whether IMDB and/or Allmovie links are valuable/accurate, it does indeed vary from film to film. Sssoul (talk) 20:40, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts now

Based on this RfC, and the previous discussion that took place before the RfC had to be requested, can we say that there is a clearly enough consensus to remove the external links at the bottom of the infobox?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:51, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It's both a strong consensus here, and more importantly is the strong consensus of the whole encyclopedia's external links guideline. Exceptions need a very strong consensus to exist, not just a couple editors objecting to bringing things into compliance. Someone who has been involved should make the change now since it clearly has widespread support. 2005 (talk) 23:19, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

The only reason I've seen that makes much sense to me for not removing the links is that there is often no corresponding link in the EL section - and we don't want to lose the link entirely. Is there any way to do this so that people are guided to move the imdb/amg links if they're not already there? Eg, if the infobox uses the imdb or amg or official site fields, the external links could be replaced by an internal link pointing people to the infobox documention, prompting them to remove the fields and telling them how to update the EL section. That would be a little messy for a while, but might reduce the needs for making a bot or having two or three people going through all the articles? I can write some template code quite easily if anyone thinks it's a good idea. GDallimore (Talk) 12:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is as big an issue as we think, to be honest. Back when we were discussing this in the above thread, someone indicated that removing the infobox link could potentially break 10,000 articles. I checked 50 film articles at random, the vast majority of which were start-class, and every single one of them had an IMDb link in the "External links" section. While it is of course likely that some don't include the link, it's pretty obvious that no matter the state of the article, an IMDb link is the first thing editors think of putting in when they create it. The handful that remain without the link can be added as and when they're noticed, IMO. Steve ^{T • C} 12:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The point also is that the links should not be added automatically. An editor should look at the IMDb or Allmovie page in question and judge if it has merit as an external link. Usually they will, but sometimes they definitely don't. So there should be nothing in place that automatically puts the links in the EL section. Let that happen in the natural course of humans editing the articles. 2005 (talk) 22:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, given the current consensus I'm going to go ahead and remove the coding for the links in the box, now.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, I need to go get an Administrator to do it.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

To request that the change be made, you can add a {{editprotected}} tag to the bottom of this discussion, with detailed explaination of what to remove. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

IMDB on Template_talk:Infobox_Actor

As IMDB has been shown in the above discussion to be an accepted field in an infobox (until proven otherwise), I have opened a request on Template_talk:Infobox_Actor to instate the IMDB field. There is no reason in my mind why a cross referencing database such as IMDB, if allowed on one type of reference such as a film infobox, should not be allowed on another type of reference such as actor infobox. If we allow it in one place, we should allow it in both. If we disallow it in one place, we should not allow it on both. There should not be a conditional double standard. Erpbridge (talk) 15:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the appropriate time to be discussing this when we're in the middle of debating whether it really should be in the film infobox. I think you should wait to see if it is going to stay or not.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 15:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Bignole. The above discussion does NOT show that IMDB is an accepted field in the infobox. It is obviously still being discussed and debated. Until that discussion is finished, whether to re-add it to the actor box or add it to any other film infobox should be put on hold. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 16:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Bignole. Besides, both templates are not identical. If one template has a parameter, that does not mean the other template needs to have it as well. (or vice versa) Garion96 (talk) 16:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)