Template talk:Cite wikisource/Archive 1

Archive 1

date?

In my opinion, it would be useful to put the original date of publication as a field in the template. As a link it's not necessary, but as a citation it's customary and provides some information to the reader about the work being cited. I'm thinking of the single-work case, of course, not the "works by [author]" case. --Delirium 09:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions for expansion and organisation

In addition to the above-requested "date" parameter, I'd like to suggest that this template take on more of the features given in {{cite web}}. If this is to be used as a citation template, then this further information is necessary for a reference to be acceptable (think FAC).

• Furthermore, there appears to be some overlap between this template and {{Wikisource-inline}}. Both have their uses, but some delineation is necessary. 52 Pickup (deal) 11:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• Also, Wikipedia:InterWikimedia links provides an easy way to link to a Wikisource entry to permit you to formulate your citation how ever you choose:

Project	Long form	Shortcut	Pagename template
Wikisource	[[wikisource:]]	[[s:]]	{{Wikisource|Pagename}}

as in

• Hopkins, Samuel. (July 31, 1790) United States of America. United States patent X1.
• Tennyson, Alfred. (1842) The Keepsake. Come not, when I am dead.

Bebestbe (talk) 04:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Update on template

In order to match en.wp citation guidelines, please see Wikipedia:Wikiproject Wikisource/Citation Uniformity.

New version is live. Soon the other wikisource citation templates can be fed through this one to maintain a uniform format. Note that this version is based on {{citation}} with the following added parameters: plaintitle, plainchapter, wslink, wspage, noicon iconfirst/firsticon, class & wslanguage. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 19:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Tracking category

It isn't necessary yet but the following code might be added to enable a tracking category to manage errors:

{{#if:{{{title|}}}{{{chapter|}}}{{{wslink|}}}||[[Category:Pages containing wikisource citation template with no link|{{NAMESPACE}} {{PAGENAME}}]]}}

This can wait until the citation-template version is fully implemented and others fed through it. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 19:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

icon at the start of the line

In the icon usage I have seen, the icon is always at the beginning of the line it applied to rather than in the middle as seems to result with most instances of this template. I see it is possible that there will be multiple wikisource links, and the design is for an icon at each link, but I think multiple icons in one line is a bit much. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 16:39, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Application

For collective works, I think {{cite encyclopedia}} is most of the time the way to go. If the work is complete on Wikisource, then perhaps {{cite wikisource}} can be substituted. Having both really makes a mess out of the template code, and if the work is incomplete, a facility to use Internet links is really necessary. I am thinking in particular of the Wikisource encyclopedias, many of which are very incomplete. Another possibility would be to have a completely new template, Citews ..., which would probably be a boon to Wikisource wonks, but still leave the generalists their primitive citation template, which doesn't have all the Wikisource bells and whistles, but can handle the Internet and Wikisource. For many of the encyclopedias, going to a particular page could be a boon for a long article, but most articles are fairly short. And even for a long one, an electronic search can probably get a reader to the section of interest pretty quickly.

And I will say a word for succinct citations. The main interest for a reader is going to be in getting to the source being used to back up some article text. The author and publication date could also be of immediate interest. But if the work has a Wikipedia article, I think just a link to that can substitute for lists of editors, publishers, and the like. Certainly I think such clutter should be optional. For more obscure publications, without Wikipedia articles, OK it is no longer clutter. But any Wikisource work, if it has been done right, should have all the publication data available for ready inspection. So it is not necessary to cram the extra information in a citation. Citations to the Internet and printed pubs of course are a different story. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 17:41, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Parameters

Parameter issues:

• laysource; missing
• archiveurl, archivedate; use of these parameters will always generate an error as they require url, which is disabled
• dateformat; no longer supported by core
• issue/number; will never show since Periodical is not used

Propose to add laysource and remove the others. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 14:08, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Documentation

I am updating the documentation to match related templates. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 14:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Extra }}} in At parameter. Proposing removal. Someone please review.

Overview

If you put in the following...

{{cite wikisource|noicon=1|last=test_last|first=test_first|wslink=test_wslink|wspage=test_wspage}}

...you will get this:

<span class="citation book">test_last, test_first. <a href="/wiki/Wikisource" title="Wikisource">Wikisource</a>. [[wikisource:test_wslink#test_wspage}}}|test_wspage]].</span>

Notice the }}} after test_wspage.

Cause

There is a subtle bug in the At parameter

  |At = {{
...

The section is deeply nested, but the problem is here (sorry, you'll have to search for the text):

[[wikisource:{{#if:{{{wslanguage|{{{3|}}}}}}|{{{wslanguage|{{{3|}}}}}}:}}{{{wslink|{{{title|{{{1|}}}}}}}}}#{{{wspages|{{{wspage|}}}}}}}}}|{{{at|{{{wspage|{{{wspages|}}}}}}}}}]]

Notice the excerpt begins with a [[ and ends with a ]]. It should make a self-contained link.

Currently there is an extra "}}}" that will result in bad links.

Explanation

I'll reduce it in successive passes -- in order to isolate the issue:

• Pass 1: swap in empty string for the innermost {{{ }}} pairs

[[wikisource:{{#if:{{{wslanguage|}}}|{{{wslanguage|}}}:}}{{{wslink|{{{title|}}}}}}#{{{wspages|}}}}}}|{{{at|{{{wspage|}}}}}}]]

• Pass 2: swap in again

[[wikisource:{{#if:|:}}{{{wslink|}}}#}}}|{{{at|}}}]]

• Pass 3: swap in again

[[wikisource:{{#if:|:}}#}}}|]]

• Pass 4: evaluate the #if expression (it also becomes an empty string)

[[wikisource:#}}}|]]

The extra "}}}" will be generated in all calls.

Proposal

I propose changing it to the following:

Current: there are 9 "}" after the 1st wspage:

#{{{wspages|{{{wspage|}}}}}}}}}|{{{at|{{{wspage|{{{wspages|}}}}}}}}}]]

Proposed: there are now 6 "}" after the 1st wspage. The other 3 should not be there:

#{{{wspages|{{{wspage|}}}}}}|{{{at|{{{wspage|{{{wspages|}}}}}}}}}]]

As this template is used by about 1500 pages, I would appreciate if someone else confirm the change before I commit it. Thanks.
Gnosygnu (talk) 05:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Template doesn't link correctly

I used the {{cite wikisource}} template to cite a source, but the link from the ref doesn't take me to the correct page.

The page that I want to cite is https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:The_Victoria_History_of_the_County_of_Surrey_Volume_3.djvu/217

The article that I'm using the template is Lee Steere (surname). From that article, if I click the blue link "The Victory History..." in the reference list, it takes me to https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Victoria_History_of_the_County_of_Surrey,_Volume_3, which says "Wikisource does not have a text with this exact name". It doesn't matter whether I include the comma or not. (The page that I want to cite has no comma but https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Victoria_County_History#Surrey and the "Title" on https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:The_Victoria_History_of_the_County_of_Surrey_Volume_3.djvu suggest to me that there should be a comma.)

Any ideas how I can fix it? I suspect the problem may be related to the fact that there is apparently no "pagelist", but I'm not familiar with how Wiksource works. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:36, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Documentation substed prior to CS1 module update

The "csdoc" Citation Style 1 documentation subtemplates that were being used by this template's documentation will be updated next week to remove all of the descriptions of how non-Lua templates are rendered. This template does not use the CS1 Lua module, so the documentation it transcluded (until a few minutes ago) would have become even more inaccurate than it already was. Because of this, I have substed all of the current documentation subtemplates into this template's documentation page.

In slightly less technical terms, this citation template uses {{citation/core}} to render citations, but other Citation Style 1 citations that used citation/core, like {{cite book}}, have been migrated to use a Lua module. The module has features and changes that have been updated over the past two years and that do not apply, and never have applied, to this template.

Someone may want to check the documentation for this template against its actual function and adjust the documentation accordingly. I believe that it is not accurate. You can visit Help talk:Citation Style 1 or respond here if you have any questions. I will watch this page for a while. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Linking to foreign wikisource

The following creates an incorrect link (en.wikisource.org/wiki/fr:Revue_des_deux_mondes/Essai_sur_le_drame_fantastique_-_Goethe,_Byron,_Mickiewicz) and translated chapter is not shown:

• {{cite wikisource|last=Sand|first=George|author-link=George Sand|plaintitle=Revue des deux mondes|volume=20|date=1839-12-01|location=Paris|publisher=Revue des deux mondes|language=French|wslanguage=fr|issn=0035-1962|chapter=Essai sur le drame fantastique - Goethe, Byron, Mickiewicz|trans-chapter=Essay on fantastic drama - Goethe, Byron, Mickiewicz|plainchapter=}}

Note that I used |plaintitle=Revue des deux mondes for the actual journal title, but it is not part of the URL at Wikisource:fr:Essai sur le drame fantastique - Goethe, Byron, Mickiewicz. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

VB option no longer working

It looks as if the vb option to control the prescript "This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain:" is no longer working - the prescript is added to all the instances of the template I have looked at today. In many cases this is not appropriate as there is no incorporated text - just a reference or link. (In one case I found the prescript applied twice). I have tried various options: vb = 'no'; vb= no; vb = ; . . . - they make no difference as far as I can see. GreyHead (talk) 14:13, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Now working correctly again. GreyHead (talk) 11:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Problematic output

This produces confusing and nonsensical output when (as is very often the case) this is used to link to out-of-copyright academic translations of ancient works:

     Bede (1903). The Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation. Translated by Lionel Cecil Jane. London: J.M. Dent & Co. Book I, Ch. 4 – via Wikisource.

Sorry, but Bede was not writing in 1903. At this point, I don't see any choice but to WP:IAR and produce sane reader-facing output at the expense of metadata purity, with: {{Cite Wikisource |author1=Bede |author1-link=Bede |first2=Lionel Cecil [transl.] |last2=Jane |wslink=Ecclesiastical History of the English People/Book 1#4 |title=The Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation |at=Book I, Ch. 4 |publisher=J.M. Dent & Co |location=London |date=1903 |noicon=yes}}:

     Bede; Jane, Lionel Cecil [transl.] (1903). The Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation. London: J.M. Dent & Co. Book I, Ch. 4 – via Wikisource.

This could be resolved by supporting the |translator1-last=, etc., parameters of {{Cite book}}, and giving the order as: author, translators, date. This would also produce better metadata that the current template, by using separate name parameters instead of a muddled |others=.

It would also much much, much more sense for the "Wikisource" link to be at the end, and given as " – via Wikisource", as with the output of |via= in other templates in this series. Because of this problem, I'm seriously considering dumping this template entirely, in favor of good ol' {{Cite book}} (though it also has the problem of date showing up before not after translators, and thus requires the same "[transl.]" hack. Our Lua just needs to be smart enough to wrap the COinS spans around the values of parameters without including square-bracketed editorial insertions at the end of them. I can't see any other simple solution to this problem, with is frequent and affects multiple parameters in all of these templates.

Anyway, back to bugs in this template: The Lua is also not catching and compensating for the case of |publisher= ending with a ".", resulting in a double ".."; this problem would seem to have been fixed elsewhere, so I'm not sure what the issue is with this template.

Cite book does what I want, with that one tweak: {{Cite book |author1=Bede |author1-link=Bede |first2=Lionel Cecil [transl.] |last2=Jane |url= https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_History_of_the_English_People/Book_1#4 |title=The Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation |at=Book I, Ch. 4 |publisher=J.M. Dent & Co. |location=London |date=1903 |via=[[Wikisource]]}}

     Bede; Jane, Lionel Cecil [transl.] (1903). The Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation. London: J.M. Dent & Co. Book I, Ch. 4 – via Wikisource.

However, in all these templates, it would be better for this to end with "... Ch. 4. Via Wikisource."

 — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:22, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

What if you use |origyear=, as one does with {{cite book}}?

     Bede (1903) [731]. The Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation. Translated by Lionel Cecil Jane. London: J.M. Dent & Co. Book I, Ch. 4 – via Wikisource.

As for the period (full stop) after the publisher, that's because the code is |Publisher = {{#if:{{{publisher|}}}|{{{publisher|}}}. [[Wikisource]]|[[Wikisource]]}}

The publisher variable's contents are presented with a period following them, regardless of the variable's contents. This template is not written in Lua; it is written in simple wikicode.

Moving the "Wikisource" to the end and saying "via Wikisource" instead should be a quick fix if there is consensus. I don't know if this page has many active watchers. Any objections? – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:36, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Here's a sandbox example that attempts to move "via Wikisource" to the end of the template:

Bede (1903) [731]. The Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation. Translated by Lionel Cecil Jane. London: J.M. Dent & Co. Book I, Ch. 4 – via Wikisource.

I have not done any other testing. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:45, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Using orig. year: Still a bit confusing but I guess it's doable. The sandbox fix is good, though I would capitalize the "Via", since it follows a ".". I didn't realize this wasn't invoking the Lua modules like most of these templates (should have looked first). A benefit to doing so is that it auto-tests input for things like "does this end with .?", and does different things based on the answer. And it doesn't add to the parser call limitations beyond the module invocation, which can be an issue in long articles that are citation-heavy. Anyway, now I'm wondering about implementing specific translator fields. I think the majority of uses of this template I have in mind would use those, and since this isn't presently in Lua I could add those easily. [60 seconds passes.] Nope; the {{Citation/core}} that this uses as the metatemplate doesn't support |translator-last=, etc.; I guess only the Lua citation processor does. Well, rats. Now I'm wondering about converting this to use {{#invoke:citation/CS1|citation|CitationClass=book|feed constructed parameters here}}. It seems like the real work is being done to handle special parameters like |wslink=, etc., to build valid URLs and such, and most of that code will be portable.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:57, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Page numbers don't show when using plaintitle

When the plaintitle parameter is set, the page numbers don't show, as demonstrated in the Template:Cite wikisource/doc § Examples section, "Citing a chapter in a book with different authors for different chapters and an editor" (the last one). I would try a fix myself but the code for setting the At parameter is so convoluted that I didn't have the inclination to parse it. Thanks. —howcheng {chat} 16:52, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

I think I have fixed it. Try it now. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:03, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Script-title

Could an experienced template editor add a script-title parameter, similar to the one in {{cite book}}? I need this parameter for correctly displaying the title Περί Ποιητικής (Poetics) in Ancient Greek phonology. The difference from the parameter title is that script-title displays without italics.

I used {{request edit}} even though it is not strictly accurate; I don't have a conflict of interest, just not quite enough template experience. — Eru·tuon 19:42, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I removed the Request Edit, since there is no conflict of interest. I think Wikipedia:Help desk is probably where you need to go. CorporateM (Talk) 20:51, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Went and posted there. If I don't get help there, perhaps at Village Pump. — Eru·tuon 01:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't expect that {{cite wikisource}} will ever support |script-title=. After the next update to the cs1|2 module suite, this thing:

''{{cite wikisource|last=Aristotle|title=Περί Ποιητικής|language=Classical Greek''|trans_title=''Poetics''|wslanguage=el|at=section 1456b, lines 20–34|ref=harv}}''

Aristotle. Περί Ποιητικής  (in Greek). section 1456b, lines 20–34 – via Wikisource. {{citation}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)

can be rewritten:

{{cite book/new |last=Aristotle |script-title=Περί Ποιητικής |trans-title=Poetics |title-link=s:el:Περί Ποιητικής |language=el |at=section 1456b, lines 20–34|ref=harv}}

Aristotle. Περί Ποιητικής  [Poetics] (in Greek). section 1456b, lines 20–34 – via Wikisource. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Invalid |script-title=: missing prefix (help)

(there is a bug in the current live version of the module suite that prevents |title-link= from working correctly when |script-title= has a value).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:02, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

new sandbox version that abandons citation/core

The current live version of {{cite wikisource}} has problems. Some of these are:

1. in the default case, the wikisource icon is displayed for every parameter that is interwiki linked to wikisource. This is accomplished by prepending the parameter's assigned value with this image markup: [[File:Wikisource-logo.svg|12px|class=noviewer|alt=Wikisource link to]]. That markup is then included in the citation's COinS metadata – the &rft.btitle= key/value pair in this example:

   {{cite wikisource |Sense and Sensibility|Austin, Jane}}

   Austin, Jane. Sense and Sensibility  – via Wikisource.

   '"`UNIQ--templatestyles-0000002B-QINU`"'<cite id="CITEREFAustin,_Jane" class="citation cs1">Austin, Jane. <span class="cs1-ws-icon" title="s:Sense and Sensibility">[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Sense_and_Sensibility ''Sense and Sensibility''&nbsp;]</span> &ndash; via [[Wikisource]].</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Sense+and+Sensibility&rft.au=Austin%2C+Jane&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATemplate+talk%3ACite+wikisource%2FArchive+1" class="Z3988"></span>

2. relies on {{citation/core}} which is obsolete and not actively maintained. This introduces some problems:
   1. |language= is rendered in a position different from the position rendered by the cs1|2 templates; cf:

      {{cite wikisource|Sentido y sensibilidad|Jane Austen|es}}

      Jane Austen. Sentido y sensibilidad  (in Spanish) – via Wikisource.

      {{cite book|title=Sentido y sensibilidad |title-link=s:es:Sentido y sensibilidad |author=Jane Austen |language=es}}

      Jane Austen. Sentido y sensibilidad  (in Spanish).

   2. editors must use |chapter= for periodical article titles and |plaintitle= for the periodical's title – |newspaper=, |magazine=, |journal=, etc not directly supported
      1. because {{citation/core}} parameter |Periodical= is not set by {{cite wikisource}}, COinS metadata are always formatted for &rft.genre=book or &rft.genre=bookitem neither of which are correct for periodicals
3. wikisource is not the publisher so that text does not belong in |publisher= but, instead, belongs in |via=

There may be other issues that I have forgotten or neglected to mention.

A way around these problems is proposed in the current {{cite wikisource/sandbox}} which uses a new version of Module:Template wrapper to feed parameters to {{citation}} (with |mode=cs1). This proposal requires use of the current sandbox versions of Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox, Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox, and Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox/styles.css. These are required so that {{citation}} can render its output with the wikisource icon.

There are differences in rendering, most notably in the placement of the icon, placement of the language annotation, and the removal of the wikisource annotation from |publisher= to |via=:

Jane Austen. Sentido y sensibilidad  (in Spanish) – via Wikisource. – live

Jane Austen. Sentido y sensibilidad  (in Spanish) – via Wikisource. – sandbox

Caveats and famous-last-words:

• if an existing {{cite wikisource}} template works correctly (I have seen quite a few that don't) then {{cite wikisource/sandbox}} should also work correctly; see testcases
• those {{cite wikisource}} templates that use |class= (in contravention of the template doc) to cite periodical sources will need to be rewritten; there are relatively few of those; see this search
• various templates that wrap {{cite wikisource}} will have rendering problems:
  • templates that that employ constructs like this (from {{BLKO}}) will need rework:

    |{{#if:{{{year|{{{volume|}}}}}}|year|HIDE_PARAMETER0}}={{{year|{{BLKO/year|{{{volume}}}}}}}}

    the above makes {{cite wikisource}} parameter |year= when {{BLKO}} has |year= or |volume= else it makes |HIDE_PARAMETER0= which cs1|2 rejects as an unrecognized parameter ({{citation/core}} ignores unknown parameters)

  • templates that have identical code for both |page= and |pages= (like this from {{WsPSM}}) will cause redundant parameter errors:

    | page = {{{wspage|{{{wspages|{{{page|{{{pages|}}}}}}}}}}}}

    | pages = {{{wspage|{{{wspages|{{{page|{{{pages|}}}}}}}}}}}}

If this proposed change is to move ahead, it must wait until the requisite changes to the cs1|2 modules are live.

opinions?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:49, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Let's do this. It will fix a number of problems described in sections above and give this template more flexibility for future use. I'm happy to work on unsupported parameters either before or after migration happens. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:28, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

What are the next steps now that the CS1 modules have been updated? I'm happy to do grunt work. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:34, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Apologies, I failed to notice that opinions were solicited for this change. I am in favour of implementing this change, and do not find the downsides to be prohibitive. Like Jonesey95 I'm willing to help out with manual adjustments where needed if pointed at a worklist. --Xover (talk) 06:37, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

implementation

I have created {{cite wikisource/interim}} as a steppingstone in the transition between {{citation/core}} and Module:Citation/CS1. First up is to manually convert those {{cite wikisource}} templates that use |class=; there are relatively few of those. This will be followed by conversion of {{cite wikisource}} instances in article- and other-namespaces, except template, to use {{cite wikisource/interim}}; this to be done by awb script. At the end, all that remains should be instances of {{cite wikisource}} used within templates which will need manual conversion and may require some rewriting. All of those done, then {{cite wikisource}} is upgraded to the sandbox version and all instances of {{cite wikisource/interim}} are replaced with {{cite wikisource}} and done. That's the plan anyway (which oft is shown, gang aft agley.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:17, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Done.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:49, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Cite error.

The following cite has a CS1 error: Yezhov, Nikolai (1937). Приказ НКВД от 30.07.1937 № 00447  – via Wikisource. {{citation}}: line feed character in |title= at position 5 (help)

• Please fix. Obviously there is no linefeed at position 5. -- User-duck (talk) 23:41, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

The leading colon in |wslink=:ru:Приказ НКВД от 30.07.1937 № 00447 is the problem; remove it:

{{cite wikisource |title=Приказ НКВД от 30.07.1937 № 00447 |wslink=ru:Приказ НКВД от 30.07.1937 № 00447 |year=1937 |last=Yezhov |first=Nikolai |authorlink=Nikolai Yezhov}}

Yezhov, Nikolai (1937). Приказ НКВД от 30.07.1937 № 00447  – via Wikisource.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:04, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. -- User-duck (talk) 16:25, 9 September 2019 (UTC)